Screenwriting and Filmmaking:"But What I Really Want to Do Is Direct"

[CharlieDontSurf]

Well to be honest I'm not real sure how I should start this thread off given the subject matter is incredibly broad and there are so many different tangents one could go off on.

Basically this thread will be for people who are interested in screenwriting, filmmaking, and the movie industry in general. There are many 2+2ers who work in the industry in many different areas so I'm sure just about any topic or question can be covered.

Seeing that I know of multiple 2+2ers who are aspiring to work in the entertainment biz and become writers and directors I thought it best to create a thread about those crafts which is seperate from a general movie discussion thread.

I personally am working towards a career as a writer-director in feature films, and I also work full time in the industry as a lowly assistant. I did the whole film school thing(overrated), read just about every screenwriting book known to man while in high school and college, and have worked as an assistant at a major studio, at a lit management company, and for a indep. film producer.

Given a lot of my work "friends" are managers/agents/screenwriters/directors and assistants to just about every type of person in the industry, I figure I can answer just about any screenwriting or industry question one might have and if I can't there are countless others who may be able to---Prv Joker, Dom, Pryor, etc etc etc.


This isn't a ask me type thread cuz I ain't that interesting. Its mainly a discussion thread for anyone interested in trying to gain a career in the industry, wanting to write screenplays, direct shorts/films, or the state of film in general, or any other crap you can think of etc.

Industry gossip is welcome too.

CDS

[Boris]

What do you think about my idea for a screenplay? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8963493&an=0&page=2#Post 8963493)

[CharlieDontSurf]

There are 1 trillion people with ideas for movies...many of them good

The people that actually sit down and write out 110 pages with that idea are screenwriters. The majority of them do a really really crappy job.

I like ski movies...there are probably like 100 of them in development right now. You have an idea, not a movie.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
I did the whole film school thing(overrated),

[/ QUOTE ]

Where? What year?

[Golden_Rhino]

For anyone who is a movie aficionado:

I try to watch movies with a critical eye. What should I be looking for when it comes to rating a movie? What is the difference between a great movie and just a good movie? What should I be looking out for as far as directing/camera work goes?

Thanks.

[CharlieDontSurf]

LMU-the early 2000s. I was smart though and double majored in poli sci so I'd at least have 1 real degree.

Film school is pretty much a waste of $$$ unless it is at UCLA or USC.

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
Film school is pretty much a waste of $$$ unless it is at UCLA or USC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went to SC. Still a waste of $$$.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
For anyone who is a movie aficionado:

I try to watch movies with a critical eye. What should I be looking for when it comes to rating a movie? What is the difference between a great movie and just a good movie? What should I be looking out for as far as directing/camera work goes?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more up Pryor's alley given he is a critic but I get the feeling he may not even wander over here from the Lounge.

In reality the key component to a great movie is almost always the quality of the script.

With directing...wow the list is huge.
Lighting and set design is big. Framing, camera angles, and different types of shots used, lenses used.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Film school is pretty much a waste of $$$ unless it is at UCLA or USC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went to SC. Still a waste of $$$.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing those two school give you a head start on is the primo internships, and networking. Also the best film program in the world if your gonna spend the cash is probably the Stark one at USC.

Overall it is almost always a waste...much like any screenwriting seminar/guru etc.

Those that can't do...teach.
Those that can't teach...teach screenwriting.

[cobrakai111]

Mark me down as another aspiring screenwriter that has never been able to get my act together enough to focus longterm. I've tried collaborating with a partner but he was as useless as me and our writing styles just never meshed. Does anyone have methods to keep them on track. Has anyone written successfully with a partner before?

(On a side note I've always thought a mockumentry Christopher Guest style on poker would have potential to be hysterical. Such amazing characters to shape and work with.)

[CharlieDontSurf]

If you can't do it solo you'll never get off the ground.
A partner just works for some people because it is a sounding board to have around at all times. I always say go solo because its not half the money/control for the same amount of work if you actually ever get successfull.

If it gets to the point where there are multiple 10+ people on here who are trying to write scripts etc we might get a seperate discussion going for just that and have a screenwriting group/class where we can view each others pages etc...

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
Also the best film program in the world if your gonna spend the cash is probably the Stark one at USC.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[Six_of_One]

I have considered trying my hand at screenwriting, but have thus far been unable to overcome my extreme laziness. I know there are programs out there such as Final Draft which are supposed to make the process easier...do you think it's worth the $200 or whatever it costs for a program like that, for a beginner?

Also, is there a book on screenwriting you could recommend for a total beginner?

[cobrakai111]

People might have better recommendations but I really liked Robert McKee's "Story" http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685

[Marwan]

I've never written a screenplay before, I'm wondering how you approach it.. In its beginning stages, do you just write and then go back and do all the proper formatting.. or is it easier to do that as you go along?

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
People might have better recommendations but I really liked Robert McKee's "Story" http://www.amazon.com/Story-Substance-Structure-Principles-Screenwriting/dp/0060391685

[/ QUOTE ]

there are so many books they basically all say the same thing.

If your gonna go the McKee route I guess the book is yr best bet...but realize he is basically a really good salesmen.

william goldman, syd field for basic structure, 10 good scripts, and john augusts blog.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
I've never written a screenplay before, I'm wondering how you approach it.. In its beginning stages, do you just write and then go back and do all the proper formatting.. or is it easier to do that as you go along?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole "sit down and just free flow write your script almost always ends in disaster.

a screenwriting program is easiest for formatting...but u still have to have an idea about what your doing.

[cobrakai111]

You also can go here to read movie screenplays themselves. http://www.moviescriptsandscreenplays.com/index3.html

[El Diablo]

CDS,

Let's say I find myself with a few extra bucks and want to get into producing. What's the best way to get hooked up with quality people? Specifically I mean talented young filmmakers, not well connected guys who are good at getting Silicon Valley types to pony up lots of money to be involved with their stupid projects.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
CDS,

Let's say I find myself with a few extra bucks and want to get into producing. What's the best way to get hooked up with quality people? Specifically I mean talented young filmmakers, not well connected guys who are good at getting Silicon Valley types to pony up lots of money to be involved with their stupid projects.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to hook up with a producer or maybe a manager/producer (w/ a pretty sweet client list) who want to get out of the studio system or work indep.

Either he has been working for a company that has put out solid profitable material(most likely lower budget genre) and he wants to branch out on his own or a manager with a really good client list in terms of writers and directors who wants to get into producing.

Its still a serious serious grind and you need a decent chunk of change. I worked for a indep producer who worked at Disney for a long time and he did the solo thing cuz he wanted to do his ideas etc. Kind of hard to watch cuz he had so many projects that either crashed and burned cuz of stupid [censored] or stuff that was really good and had solid actors,directors everything that the studios simply passed on.

The indep route seems pretty brutal unless you find a GREAT money source or a really rich product source that a studio would be lining up behind. Like a specific pulishing company, comic book company etc that is rich with material that could be developed.

[Madtown]

Why hello thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing that I know of multiple 2+2ers who are aspiring to work in the entertainment biz and become writers and directors I thought it best to create a thread about those crafts which is seperate from a general movie discussion thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be me.

I'm in the process of polishing off first drafts on two screenplays I've been working on throughout college, and I'm also starting to work on some television samples as well. Probably a pair of spec drama pilots (one more serious, one with a fair amount of non-sitcom humor) and a spec of The Office.

I've read a lot of books on screenwriting, majored in Communication Arts (focused on production/writing) and have done a lot of student journalism -- so discipline to actually DO SOME WRITING isn't an issue.

It's what I do when I'm ready to submit them that I'm incredibly lost. I live in Madison, Wisconsin, and have NO plans to impulsively move to LA and hope to make it. I know of a very very small number of internship contests that would take them as submissions, but otherwise the only thing I know of is to submit my specs to agents.

Which seems... well, the odds seem daunting. I'm not naive, thinking that I'll get an agent and suddenly sell a script for a million dollars all from Wisconsin. But I've been under the impression that it'd be at least possible to get an agent, perhaps even get a job as a staff writer on a show, without having to move to LA before that was cooking.

This is the kind of stuff I don't know. I can read all I want from established screenwriters about their experiences, but I know the film and television industry changes so quickly that it might not even apply any more -- if it ever did.

So, I guessing I'm asking those of you in the industry already:

On top of the already difficult task of getting an agent / getting a writing job, how much more difficult would it be given I'm not in LA and don't plan to be unless I actually have legitimate inroads to said job? On the scale of "not that much harder, you'll just have to make some flights out there at first if you do get some interest" to "impossible, either move here and be poor or give up now" -- what would you say?

[fish2plus2]

Primer was filmed on 16mm for $7,000 and won the biggest award at sundance. There are numerous other examples of films made for $25K or less that started people's careers.

the reason most first time filmmakers fail imho is that they are less interested in their story and more interested learning to use the camera and equipment. this is probably because having a great story is very hard, while all you need is a credit card to play with the camera.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Why hello thread.

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing that I know of multiple 2+2ers who are aspiring to work in the entertainment biz and become writers and directors I thought it best to create a thread about those crafts which is seperate from a general movie discussion thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be me.

I'm in the process of polishing off first drafts on two screenplays I've been working on throughout college, and I'm also starting to work on some television samples as well. Probably a pair of spec drama pilots (one more serious, one with a fair amount of non-sitcom humor) and a spec of The Office.

I've read a lot of books on screenwriting, majored in Communication Arts (focused on production/writing) and have done a lot of student journalism -- so discipline to actually DO SOME WRITING isn't an issue.

It's what I do when I'm ready to submit them that I'm incredibly lost. I live in Madison, Wisconsin, and have NO plans to impulsively move to LA and hope to make it. I know of a very very small number of internship contests that would take them as submissions, but otherwise the only thing I know of is to submit my specs to agents.

Which seems... well, the odds seem daunting. I'm not naive, thinking that I'll get an agent and suddenly sell a script for a million dollars all from Wisconsin. But I've been under the impression that it'd be at least possible to get an agent, perhaps even get a job as a staff writer on a show, without having to move to LA before that was cooking.

This is the kind of stuff I don't know. I can read all I want from established screenwriters about their experiences, but I know the film and television industry changes so quickly that it might not even apply any more -- if it ever did.

So, I guessing I'm asking those of you in the industry already:

On top of the already difficult task of getting an agent / getting a writing job, how much more difficult would it be given I'm not in LA and don't plan to be unless I actually have legitimate inroads to said job? On the scale of "not that much harder, you'll just have to make some flights out there at first if you do get some interest" to "impossible, either move here and be poor or give up now" -- what would you say?

[/ QUOTE ]

depends...writing feature film scripts but not living in LA..possible but A:) you'll only ever write on spec and B:) I'd say don't even bother because its so unlikely.

Writing for Tv and not living in LA--impossible.
You have to live in LA.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Primer was filmed on 16mm for $7,000 and won the biggest award at sundance. There are numerous other examples of films made for $25K or less that started people's careers.

the reason most first time filmmakers fail imho is that they are less interested in their story and more interested learning to use the camera and equipment. this is probably because having a great story is very hard, while all you need is a credit card to play with the camera.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't a ton of under 25K success stories. The director of Primer has yet to make anything else and doesn't show as even being attached to anything.

Its also very rare that any super low budget film is a success. Your better off making a short.

[Madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
depends...writing feature film scripts but not living in LA..possible but A:) you'll only ever write on spec and B:) I'd say don't even bother because its so unlikely.

Writing for Tv and not living in LA--impossible.
You have to live in LA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify (not sure if this was clear), I'm not asking whether it's possible to write (as in, have and maintain a writing job) outside LA. I'm asking whether it's possible to get your first agent and your first job offer without moving to LA FIRST.

Obviously if I got a job, I'd move to LA.

[samjjones]

[ QUOTE ]
CDS,

Let's say I find myself with a few extra bucks and want to get into producing. What's the best way to get hooked up with quality people? Specifically I mean talented young filmmakers, not well connected guys who are good at getting Silicon Valley types to pony up lots of money to be involved with their stupid projects.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you see my sweet music video made with MS-Paint? You can only imagine the quality of my work with proper camera/lighting/editing equipment.

Its pretty obvious that I am too talented to keep doing music videos forever, and I'll have to move on to shorts and features someday.

[Los Feliz Slim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
depends...writing feature film scripts but not living in LA..possible but A:) you'll only ever write on spec and B:) I'd say don't even bother because its so unlikely.

Writing for Tv and not living in LA--impossible.
You have to live in LA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify (not sure if this was clear), I'm not asking whether it's possible to write (as in, have and maintain a writing job) outside LA. I'm asking whether it's possible to get your first agent and your first job offer without moving to LA FIRST.

Obviously if I got a job, I'd move to LA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agent's perspective: nope, you've got to move here first. Everybody and their dog in the flyover mails us stuff and calls us in the hopes they'll be plucked away and brought to LA. First, the material usually sucks so hard that it's not worth reading anymore. Second, we don't believe you're actually going to move here. Third, like CDS has said, the process of becoming a success is a long process, not a switch flipping, so you need to put the time into the business networking and crap, and you need to be here to do that.

El Diablo,

Alternate, simple, answer to your question: you call me and we get started.

LFS

[jaffa]

I'm going to go slightly off the screenwriting route, but still stay in the movie domain:

What i'd like to get into, is film scoring, i.e. writing or arranging the music for film/television.

I keep thinking about Music College, but am not sure if it's the right thing, like film school, it might be a waste of money. If i do decide to go down that route i'll probably try for CalArts in LA where i'd study composition, just because everything happens in LA.

Its getting started in the industry thats difficult, does anyone have any reccommendations or advice?

Ideally i'd like to get connected with some film students and do some music for their films, for free, just to build a portfolio and rep (if anyone here does make films, or knows someone that does, and wants some music, pm me, like i said, i'll work for free).

My music teacher recommended getting started in corporate video music, but apart from increasing my portfolio, i can't see how this will get me into the actual film industry.

cheers

[BarryLyndon]

The "key" to writing a good screenplay, which I feel that I have (maybe I'm wrong) is to just start writing dialogue and scenes and see if your characters are becoming developed and interesting. Then let them go about their lives in the context of the script. Trying to coming up with flashy ideas or cool things you saw in other movies is not really the way to go.

And it takes time. You have to live with your script. If you're not living with it and allowing it to develop in your mind, then chances are, it's going to be underdeveloped /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[larrondo]

[ QUOTE ]
Film school is pretty much a waste of $$$ unless it is at UCLA or USC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I went to a very small undergrad conservatory film program, SUNY Purchase, and it worked pretty well for me. Spending four years studying, writing, directing, and editing film was exactly what I needed. Of course, at a school like this you have exactly zero chance of making film industry contacts, but you get the advantage of working in a vaccum-- you can focus on your creative growth without really thinking about what the market is looking for.

I know lots of people who didn't go to film school and have worked in the industry for years. They know the business better than I ever will, but are afraid to move up to the creative positions. Because they've never sat in an editing room trying to make sense of their messed up footage, the process is mysterious and intimidating to them.

I made a down and dirty, low budget flick a few years after graduating, did the festivals, got an agent, and have made my living in the industry ever since. Of course, this is sort of a best case scenario, but lots of people I went to school with work in the industry in one way or another. Not all of them are happy about it.

Anyway, lots of people have a negative opinion of film schools, but it was really, really good for me. I made a lot of friends who I still love and work with 15 years later.

AFI is another option if you want an 'industry connected' school. I've heard mixed things.

[CIncyHR]

All,

I am graduating from school in May and plan to pursue a career in writing. Currently I'm focusing on screenwriting, with my currrent project being adapting a novel for film, but also have interests in writing for TV, the theatre, and fiction.

From my perspective the hardest part is to actually sit down and work regularly. I often find myself saying "Today I just don't feel inspired to write" which turns into "This month I don't feel inspired" and so on. In fact, other than the screenplay I'm working on now (which is a collaboration) I haven't touched any of my projects in over two months. Hopefully getting the distraction of school behind me will help with this.

Any more expereinced writers have reccomendations for discipline?

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
Writing for Tv and not living in LA--impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you write soaps.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never written a screenplay before, I'm wondering how you approach it.. In its beginning stages, do you just write and then go back and do all the proper formatting.. or is it easier to do that as you go along?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole "sit down and just free flow write your script almost always ends in disaster.

a screenwriting program is easiest for formatting...but u still have to have an idea about what your doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. I wrote a full 120 page screenplay a few years back. I didn't even really send it out anywhere outside of a few friends down in LA, but it was a rewarding process getting it down on paper.

That being said, for me the key to actually finishing it was utilizing some of the basic techniques you'll find in any screenwriting book. Have a three act outline. Put each scene down on an index card, and lay them out in the order of your outline. This helps identify gaps in the basic story, or acts that are too long or too thin.

Once you nail that down, THEN you can really start writing. But as CDS said, if you start off writing from scratch, I just about guarantee you'll get 30 or so pages into it and realize you don't know where it's going. It's really easy to come up with a great idea for the first 30 min of a movie - much harder to bridge that into a great ending.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Writing for Tv and not living in LA--impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you write soaps.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to be a succesful TV or film writer, unless your the next David Koepp, you have to live in LA--TV especially.

Of course thee are very rare exceptions NY etc. And you can sell a spec or get an agent without even living in LA..that happens all the time.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
depends...writing feature film scripts but not living in LA..possible but A:) you'll only ever write on spec and B:) I'd say don't even bother because its so unlikely.

Writing for Tv and not living in LA--impossible.
You have to live in LA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify (not sure if this was clear), I'm not asking whether it's possible to write (as in, have and maintain a writing job) outside LA. I'm asking whether it's possible to get your first agent and your first job offer without moving to LA FIRST.

Obviously if I got a job, I'd move to LA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agent's perspective: nope, you've got to move here first. Everybody and their dog in the flyover mails us stuff and calls us in the hopes they'll be plucked away and brought to LA. First, the material usually sucks so hard that it's not worth reading anymore. Second, we don't believe you're actually going to move here. Third, like CDS has said, the process of becoming a success is a long process, not a switch flipping, so you need to put the time into the business networking and crap, and you need to be here to do that.

El Diablo,

Alternate, simple, answer to your question: you call me and we get started.

LFS

[/ QUOTE ]

True though if you aim low you may find a an assistant to read your stuff who could then pass it on if it was good.
Your best route is a producer who could secure u an agent with basically a phone call...my old boss used to do this with writers he thought had promise. Not because he thought they would sell the script but just because it was good karma.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Film school is pretty much a waste of $$$ unless it is at UCLA or USC.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I went to a very small undergrad conservatory film program, SUNY Purchase, and it worked pretty well for me. Spending four years studying, writing, directing, and editing film was exactly what I needed. Of course, at a school like this you have exactly zero chance of making film industry contacts, but you get the advantage of working in a vaccum-- you can focus on your creative growth without really thinking about what the market is looking for.

I know lots of people who didn't go to film school and have worked in the industry for years. They know the business better than I ever will, but are afraid to move up to the creative positions. Because they've never sat in an editing room trying to make sense of their messed up footage, the process is mysterious and intimidating to them.

I made a down and dirty, low budget flick a few years after graduating, did the festivals, got an agent, and have made my living in the industry ever since. Of course, this is sort of a best case scenario, but lots of people I went to school with work in the industry in one way or another. Not all of them are happy about it.

Anyway, lots of people have a negative opinion of film schools, but it was really, really good for me. I made a lot of friends who I still love and work with 15 years later.

AFI is another option if you want an 'industry connected' school. I've heard mixed things.

[/ QUOTE ]

NOTE: There are always exceptions to the advice given here.
Especially when one generalizes and says things like film school is usually a waste.

Very few film school have
A:) good teachers who can prepare you for a career
B:) resources
C:) access to hollywood/industry
D:) cheap tuition

Now a days with technology the way it is you can simpy do it yourself and spend the 20K a year on your film instead of towards the school.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've never written a screenplay before, I'm wondering how you approach it.. In its beginning stages, do you just write and then go back and do all the proper formatting.. or is it easier to do that as you go along?

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole "sit down and just free flow write your script almost always ends in disaster.

a screenwriting program is easiest for formatting...but u still have to have an idea about what your doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. I wrote a full 120 page screenplay a few years back. I didn't even really send it out anywhere outside of a few friends down in LA, but it was a rewarding process getting it down on paper.

That being said, for me the key to actually finishing it was utilizing some of the basic techniques you'll find in any screenwriting book. Have a three act outline. Put each scene down on an index card, and lay them out in the order of your outline. This helps identify gaps in the basic story, or acts that are too long or too thin.

Once you nail that down, THEN you can really start writing. But as CDS said, if you start off writing from scratch, I just about guarantee you'll get 30 or so pages into it and realize you don't know where it's going. It's really easy to come up with a great idea for the first 30 min of a movie - much harder to bridge that into a great ending.

[/ QUOTE ]

Later today at work I'll probably write up a bare bones step by step "How to Write Your First Screenplay Guide".

[jester710]

My girlfriend is in the masters program at the USC film school. It's expensive as hell, but she's already gotten quite a few connections and hook-ups for when she graduates, as have many of her friends. Of course, she wants to be an editor, so it's a lot easier for her to find a job than it is for a screenwriter or a director, since that's all anybody wants to do. Still, I think if you can get into the USC graduate film program, it's money better spent than trying to make your own movie.

[CharlieDontSurf]

The Stark Masters program at USC is the best film program in the world...its most def worth the money.

[samjjones]

Charlie - frame composition, editing, screenwriting, etc. are all fairly straightforward, and easy enough to figure out on one's own.

However, I think the biggest challenge that budding filmmakers will face is lighting and sound design. Can you suggest some helpful informational resources for these?

[CharlieDontSurf]

Hire a really good sound/camera man

It sounds stupid but its true...there are lots of amateur sound/cine's who you'd learn far more from simply trying to shoot stuff with them then you would reading a book.

Off hand I can't recommend anything specific short of moviemaker magazine which focuses on indep do it yourself type film shooting and has published a 411 on everything u need to know in order to make a low budget(under 100K) film.

Luckily I work in hollywood so even if I made a just a spec commercial/short i'd simply find a good camera guy and throw some cash and credit their way.

Basically..IDK/don't really have a good answer.
What exactly are you trying to do?
I'll ask around though.

[WhoIam]

In Pittsburgh there's an organization called Pittsburgh Filmmakers which is essentially a community film school. For a few hundred dollars, anyone can can take hands-on classes in video/filmmaking, editing, lighting, screenwriting, etc. I took a number of these for college credit and found them extremely informative and useful to a budding filmmaker. Additionally for about $300 a year, you can become a member and check out equipment (though there is a fee for borrowing high-end stuff) and have unlimited access to editing facilities, both digital and analogue. Do other cities have similar organizations?

[CharlieDontSurf]

Some of the better sites for info on screenwriting etc

http://www.johnaugust.com/

http://twoadverbs.blogspot.com/

http://www.wordplayer.com/

http://artfulwriter.com/

http://www.janeespenson.com/
more geared towards writing for TV

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For anyone who is a movie aficionado:

I try to watch movies with a critical eye. What should I be looking for when it comes to rating a movie? What is the difference between a great movie and just a good movie? What should I be looking out for as far as directing/camera work goes?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is more up Pryor's alley given he is a critic but I get the feeling he may not even wander over here from the Lounge.

In reality the key component to a great movie is almost always the quality of the script.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's part of it, but almost all great films "swing for the fences". that is, they take big chances that could easily fail spectacularly, but they manage to pull off. they aren't necessarily "perfect", in fact they can be flawed in various ways, but they are often alive despite (or even because of) those flaws.

that's an oversimplification, but one that's often ignored.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
In Pittsburgh there's an organization called Pittsburgh Filmmakers which is essentially a community film school. For a few hundred dollars, anyone can can take hands-on classes in video/filmmaking, editing, lighting, screenwriting, etc. I took a number of these for college credit and found them extremely informative and useful to a budding filmmaker. Additionally for about $300 a year, you can become a member and check out equipment (though there is a fee for borrowing high-end stuff) and have unlimited access to editing facilities, both digital and analogue. Do other cities have similar organizations?

[/ QUOTE ]

have you had good experiences with them? i'm thinking of joining, but i'm not sure just how much value i'd get out of it.

[WhoIam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Pittsburgh there's an organization called Pittsburgh Filmmakers which is essentially a community film school. For a few hundred dollars, anyone can can take hands-on classes in video/filmmaking, editing, lighting, screenwriting, etc. I took a number of these for college credit and found them extremely informative and useful to a budding filmmaker. Additionally for about $300 a year, you can become a member and check out equipment (though there is a fee for borrowing high-end stuff) and have unlimited access to editing facilities, both digital and analogue. Do other cities have similar organizations?

[/ QUOTE ]

have you had good experiences with them? i'm thinking of joining, but i'm not sure just how much value i'd get out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Were you thinking of joining to take classes or to use the equipment? If it's the latter, it's absolutely worth it. If you're making a film, you'll save a huge amount of money by not having to purchase Final Cut or Avid or rent expensive lights and other equipment. Generally they want you to have taken a class covering the equipment you check out, but they'll waive this requirement if you can demonstrate knowledge of it. Equipment can only be checked out for one day at a time or for the weekend.

The film production classes I've taken have been fantastic and all the instructors are experienced filmmakers. While the stuff they've made doesn't exactly compare with Kubrick, they have at least have a solid understanding of the technical skills. The classes I took were fun and low stress; I doubt they were as rigorous as what one would find at a "real" film school.

I would avoid any kind of theory or criticism class; I doubt it would be useful to you anyway. I was a film studies major at Pitt so I have no experience with this at Filmmakers. DO NOT take their totally useless intro to screenwriting class. On the first day we spent 25 minutes watching "Die Hard" at 4x speed to illustrate how plot works and the class only got worse from there. The "developing the feature script" class might be useful but I don't know anyone who's taken it.

I believe membership entitles you to $1 off films at any of their theaters. This would probably work out to a large amount of money for you.

[pryor15]

thanks,

i very much doubt i'd take any classes, but the equipment rental is what interests me most.

[ahnuld]

What would you do if you felt you had superior abilities to pick commercially successful scripts? Become a producer?

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
The Stark Masters program at USC is the best film program in the world...its most def worth the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

CDS - not NYU?

Also - thought this might spur some convo - but from talking to my friends who've gone to film grad school (lots went to Stark, some went to NYU) - here's my take on becoming a director / filmmaker (could be way off so be cool to hear your thoughts, I'm curious):

The whole master's program (for budding directors) culminates with a "short film" that becomes your industry calling card. Studios take note of the graduating class of up 'n' coming directors based almost solely on these shorts. (These shorts also garner visibility by being entered into film festivals around the world.)

Basically - barring a lot of luck going-forward - this is your shot to make it as a director / filmmaker in the vein of Alexander Payne (who, apparently, had a brilliant short coming out of the NYU master's program and got him his first movie).

So how far off am I?

Also - in general, I know a fair amount about the TV writing business, from having dated a successful sitcom writer for many years (saw her work her way up the ranks) and also have a lot of friends who are employed sitcom writers on network and cable series, so could prolly speak to general questions on that front.

-Al

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you felt you had superior abilities to pick commercially successful scripts? Become a producer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Run a studio

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Stark Masters program at USC is the best film program in the world...its most def worth the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

CDS - not NYU?

Also - thought this might spur some convo - but from talking to my friends who've gone to film grad school (lots went to Stark, some went to NYU) - here's my take on becoming a director / filmmaker (could be way off so be cool to hear your thoughts, I'm curious):

The whole master's program (for budding directors) culminates with a "short film" that becomes your industry calling card. Studios take note of the graduating class of up 'n' coming directors based almost solely on these shorts. (These shorts also garner visibility by being entered into film festivals around the world.)

Basically - barring a lot of luck going-forward - this is your shot to make it as a director / filmmaker in the vein of Alexander Payne (who, apparently, had a brilliant short coming out of the NYU master's program and got him his first movie).

So how far off am I?

Also - in general, I know a fair amount about the TV writing business, from having dated a successful sitcom writer for many years (saw her work her way up the ranks) and also have a lot of friends who are employed sitcom writers on network and cable series, so could prolly speak to general questions on that front.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

NYU is good like alot of other film schools but in terms of masters programs I'd say the closer you are to LA the better. I used to have to watch all the film grad's director reels as part of my job and even a lot of the Starkies were bad.

In terms of wanting to direct feature films I'd say your best bet is to write and direct a great short film that wins some awards and at the same time have a lower budget script that everyone loves and is dying to aquire...n then just attach yourself as the director.

The other route is write and make several sales as a screenwriter then attach yourself to direct one of your future specs.

The third option is just to focus on directing..make some shorts and also a reel with 3-5 spec commercials...then use that to get work in music videos, commercials, TV, etc and do that for a living for like 5-10 years...be the best in the industry and then maybe you'll get to direct a movie.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you felt you had superior abilities to pick commercially successful scripts? Become a producer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Run a studio

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Practically speaking, there's a career track of "Creative Executive" (a development executive). They're at all film / tv studios and tv networks. You start as an assistant and work your way up the chain similar to an agent's career track.

Basically you read a ton of scripts and write coverage at the lower levels, work on building your writer / talent network, hoping to get promoted to a junior CE etc.

-Al

[ThaHero]

I'm sorry for bumping this, I have quite a few questions in regards to becoming a writer for movies and t.v., but I hope I'm not breaking any rules.

For the most part, any starting job in the industry would be entry level, correct? Low pay, etc.? Do you need a degree to get an entry level job? Would a degree help in advancement opportunities, or is it mostly based off your work and networking?

I don't have a degree, I went to CSUN for a couple years and am sure that a film degree from there would probably be useless, except for maybe connections in the porn industry. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

My twin brother and I have 2 scripts written so far. We're planning our 3rd and 4th, but they're very early. Would anyone be willing to read a few pages? One is registered at WGA already and the other one is on it's way once it's refined a little, so I'm not worried to much about something being stolen. I would have to clear it with my brother first I suppose.

I have more questions but I'll stop here. Lastly, I've actually lived in L.A. my whole life, so at least I've got that going for me. Anyone on here hiring? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JackWilson]

[ QUOTE ]
For anyone who is a movie aficionado:

I try to watch movies with a critical eye. What should I be looking for when it comes to rating a movie? What is the difference between a great movie and just a good movie? What should I be looking out for as far as directing/camera work goes?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just wanted to reply to this specifically:

You seem to be approaching this from entirely the wrong angle, as many do. You don't suddenly become a film critic by looking at specific things. That's not at all how it works.

A movie critic is usually a semi-intelligent person who has seen a lot of movies and is critical or a perfectionist by nature. You're crazy if you think people who break a movie down and study its core components are real critics. There's nothing wrong with examining a movie's plot, but you can't do so in a vacuum. There are some excellent movies that have little or no plot.

Films aren't meant to be looked at that way. If they were, filmmakers would send off individual copies of the script, the audio etc to the critics. They don't. A film is a complete product, a complete experience. A real critic watches for enjoyment, not to pick something apart. However, things a real critic enjoys are usually things like a good plot, good acting, strong dialogue etc. All of that comes together to make a good film. It should always be enjoyment first. Before someone points at that documentaries are films and they're not necessarily for enjoyment - there is more than form of enjoyment. If something touches you emotionally e.g a true life drama, that is still enjoyment even though it doesn't make you happy.

What I'm trying to say is that you're wasting your time looking at specifics first. Find a great scene in a movie, a scene you really enjoyed. If you want, you can look at what makes that scene great, and you'll usually notice things like clever camera angles, subtle use of transitions, witty dialogue or whatever. But trying to justify something as being great without actually having enjoyed it because it uses many different and very technical camera techniques is just wrong IMO.

A good example is the UK series of The Office. One of the reasons why I enjoy it is because it's very realistic, if you've ever worked in an office, you meet idiots like that all the time. However, since you don't work with these people, you can laugh at their stupidity as much as you want, it's not real life. There are many ways in which this realism is achieved, I'll give you three examples. No laugh track. The use of little shots just showing normal office behaviour, there isn't always something happening. The extensions of awkward silences way longer than it takes for the "punchline" to set in. These are some of the film techniques which make the series so great, but you couldn't see that by looking at the individual parts. Look at the whole. Did you enjoy it? Everything starts there. If you have to articulate why you enjoyed something, then it becomes necessary to study it. The first step is to find out why you enjoyed it. Then look for things that enforce that reason.

Unless you want to just get yourself published, in which case you should become a good writer first.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

im starting to think that the best approach is to simply buy a $500 camera and make a bunch of movies that look really bad with it. send them all over the place and hope something bites.

the alternative is to shoot an awesome short and relentlessly approach anyone for money to make the next chapter and just film when you have the money to do so.

writing a script and sending it in the mail? meh, i guess so?

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry for bumping this, I have quite a few questions in regards to becoming a writer for movies and t.v., but I hope I'm not breaking any rules.

For the most part, any starting job in the industry would be entry level, correct? Low pay, etc.? Do you need a degree to get an entry level job? Would a degree help in advancement opportunities, or is it mostly based off your work and networking?

I don't have a degree, I went to CSUN for a couple years and am sure that a film degree from there would probably be useless, except for maybe connections in the porn industry. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

My twin brother and I have 2 scripts written so far. We're planning our 3rd and 4th, but they're very early. Would anyone be willing to read a few pages? One is registered at WGA already and the other one is on it's way once it's refined a little, so I'm not worried to much about something being stolen. I would have to clear it with my brother first I suppose.

I have more questions but I'll stop here. Lastly, I've actually lived in L.A. my whole life, so at least I've got that going for me. Anyone on here hiring? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

sometimes even a 4 year degree doesn't mean much. You really have to get lucky to get a good entry level gig.

Send me the first 15 pages of each and when i get the chance I'll read them.

Actual God is a staffed TV writer so I'm sure he can chime in for people interested in writing for TV.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
im starting to think that the best approach is to simply buy a $500 camera and make a bunch of movies that look really bad with it. send them all over the place and hope something bites. NO

the alternative is to shoot an awesome short and relentlessly approach anyone for money to make the next chapter and just film when you have the money to do so. NO

writing a script and sending it in the mail? meh, i guess so? NO

[/ QUOTE ]

[idrinkcoors]

[/ QUOTE ] Actual God is a staffed TV writer so I'm sure he can chime in for people interested in writing for TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there has not already been a thread discussing tv writing, I would be interested in hearing from CDS and Actual God about television script writing and the business itself.

A few years ago, I wrote a "West Wing" spec script that took 2nd in a little tv writing contest, but I live in the flyover land and (as Los Feliz Slim indicates) this doesn't help you land a gig, or an agent. Or maybe the spec script sucks.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Actual God is a staffed TV writer so I'm sure he can chime in for people interested in writing for TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there has not already been a thread discussing tv writing, I would be interested in hearing from CDS and Actual God about television script writing and the business itself.

A few years ago, I wrote a "West Wing" spec script that took 2nd in a little tv writing contest, but I live in the flyover land and (as Los Feliz Slim indicates) this doesn't help you land a gig, or an agent. Or maybe the spec script sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

In terms of writing for TV you need to live in LA.
In terms of writing for film, it is best to live in LA but if your good it is not required.

[Yeti]

i would love to hear as much as people can share on tv writing.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
i would love to hear as much as people can share on tv writing.

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel kind of dumb commenting when AG is actually staffed but essentially you write several spec episodes of shows that are "hot" to spec...it changes year to year and you can always try to throw a curve ball by doing something different but essentially you write say
1 great HOUSE spec
1 great The Unit spec or maybe Ugly Betty etc
1 great Criminal Minds spec or maybe a pilot

if u can write an amazing One Tree Hill and a ok House then obviously write the OTH spec

if u even have 1 great spec for House etc u can probably get a agent with that but u kind of need a portfolio or another good writing sample to show your not a one hit wonder.

Your agent sends out your material during staffing season when all the new shows are filling up their staffs and current shows are replacing writers who have left. If the showrunner/producer etc likes your stuff you have a meeting with them. You go thru a series of meetings and if they all go well you are hired to the writing staff for the season.

[idrinkcoors]

CDS:

I assume this process is affected by the potential writer's strike? And if so, do production companies start advertising for scabs?

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
CDS:

I assume this process is affected by the potential writer's strike? And if so, do production companies start advertising for scabs?

[/ QUOTE ]

to be honest I'm not 100% sureb but its probably all reality tv stuff in the event of a strike...u def don't want to break the picket line as a writer/director/actor.

[ThaHero]

CDS,

Thanks for the offer. It's MovieMagic format. I'll talk to my brother and try to get them to you.

BTW, when is staffing season? I'm guessing around the early months of the year?

Edit: I guess other people had questions about this too, I don't feel so bad about bumping it now. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CharlieDontSurf]

I created this thread for all filmmaking questions..it can be bumped whenever someone has a question/tip/advice/story/brag etc

[john voight]

CDS, thanks for the great thread.
I am just gunna write a bunch of [censored] about me, comment or don't, I don't mind.

I am 20, and after 3 years of state college in california, think I will study in a department called Radio, TV, Film. I might major in business, IDK. Its a toss up. I love films, however business is "safer".

I am a crappy writer (when it comes to detail, articulation).

I have several ideas though. Some, are quite vivid. I mean I can actually see specific details in key scenes. I love creating things. And I wish I had a nice camera, millions of dollars, and talented actors, b/c being in that situation, is a dream.

Anyway, that is my situation. I go to school @ SJSU btw.

PS: what is a good video camera for shooting film (preferably not uber expensive). And by expensive, I mean; I play NL30. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a crappy writer (when it comes to detail, articulation).

I have several ideas though. Some, are quite vivid. I mean I can actually see specific details in key scenes. I love creating things.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but...hell...it sounds like you've got virtually nothing that everyone else doesn't...probably less.

having a couple of ideas and a couple of scenes in your head is like step one of coming up with a good idea that could become a good script that might end up being a decent film.


[ QUOTE ]
PS: what is a good video camera for shooting film (preferably not uber expensive). And by expensive, I mean; I play NL30. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you're starting completely from scratch, right?

1. go to Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-Mart or wherever
2. wander over to the electronics section
3. grab a camera at random
4. ask the guy, "is this a decent camera?"
5. if he doesn't say, "good god, no", purchase it.

this is an elaborate way to say, it doesn't really matter. you're just trying to figure out what the hell you're doing.

[icetonez]

I have an idea concerning Hollywood and technology. Relative to the average reader of this thread I'm quite ignorant about both; so if this idea has been thought of and or executed or just flat out sucks (you'll know why) please let me know. I hope Charlie you don't mind me posting this idea in your thread. I just read it and found it most interesting.

I have talked to a few posters about this idea, including LFS but have since tweaked the idea so that it focuses solely on Hollywood.

We all know how successful all of these Internet websites with various functionalities: myspace, craigslist, youtube etc. have been over the last few years. My idea is a comprehensive website with many of these functions specifically geared towards Hollywood. As an outsider I just think there could be a better way for information to be shared in this community. Here are some of the things I have thought that would be useful.

Fistly all users would have profiles. Actors could put up their headshots or even upload sample video of a monologue. Scripts could be e-mailed back and forth or put up in one location where several people would have privelege to edit. I envision talent, agents, directors, producers, executives all using this medium. If after a casting call, a casting director can't decide between two actors, they could check out their respective uploaded work instead of a flat photo and resume. Maybe even in some instances the physical call could be eliminated all together?

Each user/profile would have their own calendar. This way an executive user could see that Halle Barry is filming all next month, find another actress.

Right now I imagine that actors look for work in newspapers (Variety for example? saw it on Entourage lol) and online in places like craigslist. What if this website streamed casting call information. And not just job openings, but all germane Hollywood news (not gossip stuff). I know this is a weird analogy, but think Bloomberg Terminal. Everyone would have a uniform e-mail account with their profile. Following in my Bloomberg analogy, there would also be a database like IMBD where users could perform queries integrated with profiles. It would be more powerful (or maybe I should say accessable) than IMDB; to the best of my knowledge, for example, you couldn't do a search for all actresses > 5'10" with blond hair on IMDB.


I'm sure some of my examples are poor, but I think they're good enough to get the jist of it. For some reason this idea keeps coming back to me. I dunno, maybe I do have something here. It would be cool to try and put something together with people on this forum as I msyelf have little money, no programming knowledge, and little industry knowlege. Any feedback would be great!

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

CDS,

Suppose you dont live in Los Angeles, and you have a non film business job. You want to create a film/become a director etc. What is your best strategy?

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a crappy writer (when it comes to detail, articulation).

I have several ideas though. Some, are quite vivid. I mean I can actually see specific details in key scenes. I love creating things.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but...hell...it sounds like you've got virtually nothing that everyone else doesn't...probably less.

having a couple of ideas and a couple of scenes in your head is like step one of coming up with a good idea that could become a good script that might end up being a decent film.


[ QUOTE ]
PS: what is a good video camera for shooting film (preferably not uber expensive). And by expensive, I mean; I play NL30. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you're starting completely from scratch, right?

1. go to Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-Mart or wherever
2. wander over to the electronics section
3. grab a camera at random
4. ask the guy, "is this a decent camera?"
5. if he doesn't say, "good god, no", purchase it.

this is an elaborate way to say, it doesn't really matter. you're just trying to figure out what the hell you're doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats pretty much where i come out. if the story is good enough, hopefully you can get some recognition in a film festival. treat it as a hobby.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
CDS,

Suppose you dont live in Los Angeles, and you have a non film business job. You want to create a film/become a director etc. What is your best strategy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Createing a film and becoming a working director are two different things.

I would get a camera...find some friends with similar interests or join a club etc..and shoot several short films along with like 3 or 4 spec commercials. Submit the short films to all the film festivals. If they are good you should get attention from agents/the industry etc.

[El Diablo]

CDS,

If I have no contacts or experience or knowledge about the industry, but have a surefire winner concept for a sitcom that has never been done before, is there any way for me to make any money out of it?

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
CDS,

If I have no contacts or experience or knowledge about the industry, but have a surefire winner concept for a sitcom that has never been done before, is there any way for me to make any money out of it?

[/ QUOTE ]

most likely no...but you could always write it and get tit to a agent and maybe if it is that amazing maybe something happens..but the odds are like less than 1%.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a crappy writer (when it comes to detail, articulation).

I have several ideas though. Some, are quite vivid. I mean I can actually see specific details in key scenes. I love creating things.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but...hell...it sounds like you've got virtually nothing that everyone else doesn't...probably less.

having a couple of ideas and a couple of scenes in your head is like step one of coming up with a good idea that could become a good script that might end up being a decent film.


[ QUOTE ]
PS: what is a good video camera for shooting film (preferably not uber expensive). And by expensive, I mean; I play NL30. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you're starting completely from scratch, right?

1. go to Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-Mart or wherever
2. wander over to the electronics section
3. grab a camera at random
4. ask the guy, "is this a decent camera?"
5. if he doesn't say, "good god, no", purchase it.

this is an elaborate way to say, it doesn't really matter. you're just trying to figure out what the hell you're doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats pretty much where i come out. if the story is good enough, hopefully you can get some recognition in a film festival. treat it as a hobby.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, and there's zero reason to spend more than a couple hundred on a camera, since you pretty much will have no clue how to use it anyway. essentially, you could easily spend $5k on a camera and figure out you a) don't know how to work it and b) got one that isn't the best fit for what you want. and it will probably take you awhile to even figure that out. so, get something cheap and learn that way (or, better yet, borrow one). the only reason not to is if you've got more money than you know what to do with, and if that's the case, i know a lot of filmmakers who would be more than willing to be your new best friend.

edit: i should also add that your first film (and probably your first couple of films) will in all likelihood be terrible. that's perfectly normal.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am a crappy writer (when it comes to detail, articulation).

I have several ideas though. Some, are quite vivid. I mean I can actually see specific details in key scenes. I love creating things.

[/ QUOTE ]

no offense but...hell...it sounds like you've got virtually nothing that everyone else doesn't...probably less.

having a couple of ideas and a couple of scenes in your head is like step one of coming up with a good idea that could become a good script that might end up being a decent film.


[ QUOTE ]
PS: what is a good video camera for shooting film (preferably not uber expensive). And by expensive, I mean; I play NL30. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you're starting completely from scratch, right?

1. go to Best Buy or Circuit City or Wal-Mart or wherever
2. wander over to the electronics section
3. grab a camera at random
4. ask the guy, "is this a decent camera?"
5. if he doesn't say, "good god, no", purchase it.

this is an elaborate way to say, it doesn't really matter. you're just trying to figure out what the hell you're doing.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats pretty much where i come out. if the story is good enough, hopefully you can get some recognition in a film festival. treat it as a hobby.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, and there's zero reason to spend more than a couple hundred on a camera, since you pretty much will have no clue how to use it anyway. essentially, you could easily spend $5k on a camera and figure out you a) don't know how to work it and b) got one that isn't the best fit for what you want. and it will probably take you awhile to even figure that out. so, get something cheap and learn that way (or, better yet, borrow one). the only reason not to is if you've got more money than you know what to do with, and if that's the case, i know a lot of filmmakers who would be more than willing to be your new best friend.

edit: i should also add that your first film (and probably your first couple of films) will in all likelihood be terrible. that's perfectly normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I still remember mine
was like 2 minute of me being arty fart with editing and camera work showing a guy having the time of his life then like a minute or two of him waking up handcuffed to a dead naked 16 year old and housekeeping knocking on the door

[Yeti]

i guess i am completely naive, but in the uk sitcom market (where we have had 2-3 great shows in the last 5 years and nothing else), i feel like if i wrote an INCREDIBLE comedy series then it would surely see the light of day eventually.

series here are 6 eps, written by 1-2 guys instead of a team, and it seems the whole market is a lot less crazy and crowded than in america.

wrong again?

[1957 Chevy]

In the film industry, contacts are more important than talent. And I know the UK is slightly different but Hollywood is extremely incestual. They don't feel the need to look to outsiders when there's already so many established writers in their stables.

[1957 Chevy]

WARNING, LONG: Thought I'd throw in my two cents: I'm 25, and when I was 20 I went down the whole film school route (Academy of Art College in SF, CA). I hated it and dropped out after one semester. I took the next semester's tuition money (around $5500) and decided to make a feature film with it. I used people I'd met a school for crew and cast local actors. We shot on DV. No one got paid anything except the sound guy. The film was decent, but a $5500 feature is not really going to do anything for getting you noticed in the larger film community, unless you REALLY catch lightning in a bottle. So basically the experience was my film school. I learned a ton, and it really worked to teach my what you need to know when you write/direct a film and gave me something that is extremely important to any artist: self-confidence.

Meanwhile, in the last 4 years, I've been working as a freelance FCP editor (I was already getting work doing that when I was in school, which also added to my reasons for dropping out). But, the film scene in the Bay Area is basically non-existent (the SF film commission is very film-unfriendly). There is a solid underground film scene, and a fair amount of independent films made up here each year (more than Madison, WI, say), but there's no film money up here, so almost all of them are self-financed labors of love that stand little chance of making it outside the Bay Are due to their budgetary constraints. Occasionally, a Hollywood film or production company comes up to do a commercial, but they always bring all their own crew except for maybe grips. So, I rarely cut or work on any narrative films and earn my living cutting corporate, wedding videos, and the occasional documentary.

I don't want to cut crappy videos forever -- I too want to write/direct for a living. So the route I've chosen to go down is to just do it. Last year, I wrote and directed a short film I am very proud of that has been having success at a few festivals. Shameless plug: www.deliverymanmovie.com (http://www.deliverymanmovie.com)

I ultimately want to make films independently. I don't want to write for TV and I don't want to work within the studio system. I want to join forces with a small group of investors who, together, can put up the money to make a feature. There is a ton of ways to do this and a ton of money floating around out there. Deals can be worked out many different ways, but basically here's my ideal: Myself and group of indenpendently wealthy individuals make the feature entirely on our own, answering to no one, but ourselves (the good part), only we also have no assurance whether the film is going to be picked up for distribution or not (the bad part). We then take said film on a festival tour, shop it around the film marketplace, and hopefully pick up a national and international home video release and earn our money back, plus a small profit. We then turn around and do it again. We should only have to do this one or two times before we can get a pre-sale distribution deal from a distribution company we've (ideally) made money for. Then there is a lot less risk in putting up the budget. From there we hopefully earn some attention from the big boys and strike pre-sale distribution deals with larger companies that lead to larger production budgets. And so on and so on...

The reasons I say I don't want to work within the studio system are twofold: 1) I'm a realist and 2) I'm a snob.

I'm a realist in that breaking into the studio system is extremely difficult. The Hollywood studio system is one of the most conservative business' in the world. Certain films have shown earning potential for upwards of $1B (E.T.) and, as a result, budgets have ballooned in pursuit of this. So, when a studio hires a director to make a film they have plans for, they are going to be investing upwards of $40-60M -- that's a lot of money. There is a vague formula on what is required to create a commercially successfully film. For them, it's too much of a risk to a) vere from this formula and b) hire someone they do not know and can't completely control.

I'm a snob in that I don't like studio movies. I don't think they're good. They're boring reincarnations of films I've already seen and, from a director's POV, they have no style. Most of them look like they were directed by a machine (and they were, in a way, i.e. the studio) -- they look and feel exactly the same. I want my films to have personality and reflect my own sensibilities and style. There is little room for this in a studio film... too risky. Also, I don't want to work as a director for hire (I would in order to eat, mind you). I want to make films I'm interested in, not 'Porky's 4: The Remake' (although, I probably would be interested in that). I also do not want to be controlled by 'the suits' who will change the entire ending of a movie when it doesn't score well in one test screening (which are such a joke, I don't know how they ever gained such validity).

Anyway, that's the path I've chosen to pursue as a filmmaker. Jim Jarmusch is a good example of a filmmaker who has succeeded doing this same thing (i.e. independent investors). The Coen brothers started out in this way, but the studios basically recognized they were so brilliant that they started offering them deals where they could do absolutely whatever they wanted as long as it fit wihin a certain budget (around $25 million).

So the steps I'm taking to enjoy that kind of success are 1) actually writing scripts and making films and 2) meeting and networking with as many people as I can. You've got to put yourself out there and learn how to recognize opportunities and how to sell. This is the most valuable thing you get out of film school -- the contacts and connections. But, as it's been said before, the only film school with really good contacts is USC. If you can go there and make a lot of friends, you will definitely have some kind of career in film (maybe not directing) even if you are completely talentless. As an aside, my take on the NYU vs. USC thing is: Go to NYU if you are serious about the art of film and want to learn the craft from the best. If you want the best chance of working in the industry in any avenue, and are more interested in making a good living than the art of film, go to USC. Of course, this is an over-simplification, but basically that's how I see it.

This is extremly long and I started ranting. Sorry. Just the first post I've seen like this in 2p2.

Cliff Notes: I dropped out of film school and made a low-budget feature. I currently work as a freelance video editor and continue to write/direct my own films. My ultimate goal is to make feature films that are financed completely independently. I rant about the Hollywood studio system. I want to be Jim Jarmusch.

A short film I wrote/directed: www.deliverymanmovie.com (http://www.deliverymanmovie.com)

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
In the film industry, contacts are more important than talent. And I know the UK is slightly different but Hollywood is extremely incestual. They don't feel the need to look to outsiders when there's already so many established writers in their stables.

[/ QUOTE ]

False.

contacts are huge but true talent trumps all..even if the person in question happens to be a drug addicted, wife beating, assistant abusing, sex addict.

[1957 Chevy]

I didn't mean for it to sound so dogmatic. I was more just following up on what you said about the chances of an unkown writer getting a sitcom picked up by a major network being around 1%.

But that being said, I cannot over-emphasize how important it is to develop a network and develop your networking skills. You have to have talent and skill first, sure, but there are a lot of talented and skilled writers/directors who don't get work becuase they don't have a good network/don't know how to network. And a lot of writers/directors without talent who do work because they have a good network/networking skills.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to join forces with a small group of investors who, together, can put up the money to make a feature. There is a ton of ways to do this and a ton of money floating around out there. Deals can be worked out many different ways, but basically here's my ideal: Myself and group of indenpendently wealthy individuals make the feature entirely on our own, answering to no one, but ourselves (the good part), only we also have no assurance whether the film is going to be picked up for distribution or not (the bad part).

[/ QUOTE ]

have you thought about trying to become part of a slate financing of independent films to become more attractive to investors?

[1957 Chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I want to join forces with a small group of investors who, together, can put up the money to make a feature. There is a ton of ways to do this and a ton of money floating around out there. Deals can be worked out many different ways, but basically here's my ideal: Myself and group of indenpendently wealthy individuals make the feature entirely on our own, answering to no one, but ourselves (the good part), only we also have no assurance whether the film is going to be picked up for distribution or not (the bad part).

[/ QUOTE ]

have you thought about trying to become part of a slate financing of independent films to become more attractive to investors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I am least skilled/knowledgable about the financing of independent films. I'm confident in my abilities as a filmmaker, but the business side: This is the part of the game that I've just begun learning.

I know very little bit about slate financing, but from what I've picked up, to be included within a slate of films, you typically have to have a proven track record (i.e. a feature film that has been distributed) and/or a garunteed distribution deal -- in order not to detract from the overall appeal of the portfolio. And, generally, aren't these slate film porfolios typically genre films (mostly B-movie horror)? It sounds like a good business plan to be involved with; I just don't know much about it.

Have you experience with slate picture financing? Woud love to hear any and all wisdom....

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
have you thought about trying to become part of a slate financing of independent films to become more attractive to investors?

[/ QUOTE ]

Disclaimer: I am least skilled/knowledgable about the financing of independent films. I'm confident in my abilities as a filmmaker, but the business side: This is the part of the game that I've just begun learning.

I know very little bit about slate financing, but from what I've picked up, to be included within a slate of films, you typically have to have a proven track record (i.e. a feature film that has been distributed) and/or a garunteed distribution deal -- in order not to detract from the overall appeal of the portfolio. And, generally, aren't these slate film porfolios typically genre films (mostly B-movie horror)? It sounds like a good business plan to be involved with; I just don't know much about it.

Have you experience with slate picture financing? Woud love to hear any and all wisdom....

[/ QUOTE ]

I know a bit about how studios use slate financing, but nothing about it for independent films except that it exists. sounds like you know more than i do for your particular case (which shouldn't be surprising).

sorry,
ed

[Voltaire]

[ QUOTE ]
In the film industry, contacts are more important than talent. And I know the UK is slightly different but Hollywood is extremely incestual. They don't feel the need to look to outsiders when there's already so many established writers in their stables.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

[Voltaire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the film industry, contacts are more important than talent. And I know the UK is slightly different but Hollywood is extremely incestual. They don't feel the need to look to outsiders when there's already so many established writers in their stables.

[/ QUOTE ]

False.

contacts are huge but true talent trumps all..even if the person in question happens to be a drug addicted, wife beating, assistant abusing, sex addict.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also correct. If you are a genius, work long hours and basically live and breathe film, and never give up, you'll make it--probably.

There are three rules. I'll spare you the first two. The third is: "Life isn't fair." All art is love. You do it because you love it, because you can't not do it. Then and only then do you have a chance to succeed. Of course if your dad is Francis Ford Coppola you can make films that are not bad, but would never see the light of day without the nepotism.

A great movie about the film biz that really gives you an idea of what you're up against is Robert Altman's The Player (1992). Hollywood was not thrilled and the Academy didn't award it jack diddly, but it's a great flick starring Tim Robbins.

[Voltaire]

>almost all great films "swing for the fences". that is, they take big chances that could easily fail spectacularly,<

This is true in the book biz and in the art world as well. Everybody with the power to make money decisions in the industries (they are that) protects their butt by trying to do something that HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL. Naturally that peters out. Along comes an innovator with skill and nerve and a devil may care attitude or a karma yoga stance (doing it for doing it) and boom you have, e.g., Following (1998) and then Memento (2000) and a hundred imitators and the keys to the Hollywood kingdom of financing.

[Voltaire]

One more thing: Charlie would surf if he weren't so freaking busy making a living, and that goes for a lot of wannabes.

Also, most movies are crap and ditto for TV only more so. The commercialization of art always leads to non-art.

Now if you guys want to make a buck. Imitate with a twist, learn everything there is to know, work long hours, be relentless in your pursuit and marry well. Especially the latter.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the film industry, contacts are more important than talent. And I know the UK is slightly different but Hollywood is extremely incestual. They don't feel the need to look to outsiders when there's already so many established writers in their stables.

[/ QUOTE ]

False.

contacts are huge but true talent trumps all..even if the person in question happens to be a drug addicted, wife beating, assistant abusing, sex addict.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also correct. If you are a genius, work long hours and basically live and breathe film, and never give up, you'll make it--probably.

There are three rules. I'll spare you the first two. The third is: "Life isn't fair." All art is love. You do it because you love it, because you can't not do it. Then and only then do you have a chance to succeed. Of course if your dad is Francis Ford Coppola you can make films that are not bad, but would never see the light of day without the nepotism.

A great movie about the film biz that really gives you an idea of what you're up against is Robert Altman's The Player (1992). Hollywood was not thrilled and the Academy didn't award it jack diddly, but it's a great flick starring Tim Robbins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having been an assistant to a Scott Rudin wannabe I recommend Swimming with the Sharks to anyone thinking of going into the studio system as an exec.

If you want to direct get a degree in like business or accounting or something where u can land a job with a good salary right out of college...then on weekends write your scripts and shoot your shorts. You'll enjoy life more if your not a slave at some studio and making minimum wage.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

yeti,

one option might be to film the show yourself and then get it popular on the net. if the television studios come knocking you might be able to maintain more power and control as opposed to just selling the script for a minimal amount of dough.

[CharlieDontSurf]

[ QUOTE ]
yeti,

one option might be to film the show yourself and then get it popular on the net. if the television studios come knocking you might be able to maintain more power and control as opposed to just selling the script for a minimal amount of dough.

[/ QUOTE ]

the likelyhood of this happening is like -1%

[AJackson]

Great thread, thanks for taking the time to do this.

After seeing Star Wars at the age of 7 I've had a life long fascination with movies and for a long time I've wanted to work in the field. I imagine directing is what I would want to do.

Considering that I'm in the fortunate position of being able to take an unpaid job for an extended period of time (a year or more if needed), what would be the best way to learn the trade?

I don't mind starting at the bottom, but I have no need or desire to grind out a living. I just want to learn as quickly as possible and see how far I can go.

Also, being 37 would I face any issues due to being older than most people who are starting out?

[1957 Chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
Great thread, thanks for taking the time to do this.

After seeing Star Wars at the age of 7 I've had a life long fascination with movies and for a long time I've wanted to work in the field. I imagine directing is what I would want to do.

Considering that I'm in the fortunate position of being able to take an unpaid job for an extended period of time (a year or more if needed), what would be the best way to learn the trade?

I don't mind starting at the bottom, but I have no need or desire to grind out a living. I just want to learn as quickly as possible and see how far I can go.

Also, being 37 would I face any issues due to being older than most people who are starting out?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as taking a year of unpaid work goes: just remember someone who 'makes it' in TEN YEARS is considered an overnight success in Hollywood (example: Quinten Tarrrantino). So unless you can take a decade without getting paid...

But my advice would be to take work as a paid or unpaid PA (production assistant) on an independent film (don't know where you're located). You need to understand how a set is run and being on one is the best way to do this. This doesn't have to be a big film with a union crew, just any feature/short that has at least a some kind of budget (i.e. enough to spend AT LEAST $2500/day on production costs). Get a few PA gigs and watch the director as much as you can. You'll quickly be able to separate the good ones from the bad ones.

As far as the age goes, unfortunately that is a bit of a handicap, but not one significant enough to stop you. Most working directors start pursuing their career in their early twenties and begin to enjoy steady work when they're in their early to mid thirties. But there have been a lot of great directors who started out late and made a name for themselves through independent film. David O. Russell (Three Kings, I Heart Huckabees) didn't become interested in filmmaking until he was thirty-two.

It takes a lot of committment: emotionally, psychologically, and (if you're going the independent route) financially. So only make a serious pursuit of this if you really want to direct films and want nothing else, not if you just imagine directing is what you want to do.

As an aside, watch Elanor Coppola's documentary 'Hearts of Darkness' about Francis Ford Coppola and the making of 'Appocalypse Now'. If you're still interested in directing after seeing that, then you might be crazy enough to make it.