Looking more professional, a fashion thread

[JaredL]

I'm currently a fourth year grad student in Economics. Next year I'll be going "on the market." The market is basically a huge conference where people give talks on a variety of topics, some meetings take place, and most importantly pretty much all job interviews take place. In the fall schools post openings, the interviews take place at the aforementioned AEA meetings in early January. Candidates have anywhere from a couple of interviews up to 30 or more. If successful, a candidate is flown out to give an hour and a half talk at that school.

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about clothes. I pretty much always wear t-shirts, most of which are Oregon related. I have a North Face fleece that I have worn a lot this winter. I usually wear jeans or shorts when it isn't too cold. For shoes, I basically wear New Balance cross trainers.

I went on a bit of a binge last spring. Last Christmas, I took advantage of sales to buy a bunch of colored shirts, just your basic Old Navy/Gap etc. type. I also bought a few pairs of khakis and cargo pants, a pea (sp?) coat, and two pair of Clarks shoes (one brown, one black, otherwise identical) that I actually really like. I wore these pretty regularly for most of the winter and spring, but once summer came around and I wasn't around the department, I went back to wearing shorts and tshirts etc. For whatever reason, I haven't gone back to wearing the nicer clothes, and even some new stuff I bought early this month.

Basically, I would like to overall look more professional. I have the type of personality where I don't take myself too seriously, and the clothing I usually wear is representative of that. The problem is that I suspect it also rubs off and people get the (sadly not incorrect enough) impression that I don't take my work seriously either. Also, I think that when making the change from student to professor it seems appropriate to not look like a total slob all the time (at least until I get tenure). Some tips for day-to-day stuff would be good here. Also, I will need to buy a suit to wear to the interviews and hopefully fly-outs. I've never owned a suit and don't have the slightest clue what to look for. There is also usually a dinner which is somewhat, but not completely formal at these things.

So basically, I am seeking advice on 3 how to dress for three types of situations:
1. Day to day office - something nice and comfortable, should be professional but need not meet any dress code.
2. Formal suit/tie for a job interview, giving talks etc.
3. Something in the middle to wear to dinner and other events with potential employers.

I don't have a huge budget to buy tons of stuff. While I'm not going on one huge shopping spree, my hope is that I can keep reading this thread and make some improvements gradually. Any input appreciated.

[NorCalJosh]

can this be expanded into the general fashion advice thread mrwookie suggested?

[kniper]

just be balla all the time like this badass dude. the old school phone is key too.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o227/vnknipe/Yuppie.jpg

[El Diablo]

NCJ,

"can this be expanded into the general fashion advice thread mrwookie suggested?"

Just add...

4. Going out and looking nice at casual places.
5. Going out and looking nice at dressier places.

[ImprovinNewbie]

in my oppinion the best fitting, looking and always approriate is anything from Ralph Lauren (the real thing with the horse adn the purple label, no polo sport etc.) suits, sweaters, slacks, T-shirts, shoes, ties, you name it its hot and looks good on you.

[The DaveR]

J, If you're going to be in front of Econ Profs as long as you have a suit and tie that fits alright and is conservative and dark you'll be fine. Chances are they won't be paying attention.

[IggyWH]

[ QUOTE ]
in my oppinion the best fitting, looking and always approriate is anything from Ralph Lauren (the real thing with the horse adn the purple label, no polo sport etc.) suits, sweaters, slacks, T-shirts, shoes, ties, you name it its hot and looks good on you.

[/ QUOTE ]\

The thing I don't care for with RL clothing is to me, it lacks personality. I like designers that I feel like there's personality in things, especially button downs. I'm a big fan of Claiborne and Perry Ellis stuff.

[econophile]

Jared,

I'm currently on the economic job market, and I attended the AEA meetings in Chicago a few weeks ago. Of your wardrobe list, you should shop for the formal suit at the end of the summer or early fall, you can get dinner wear in December or January, and I wouldn't even worry about day to day office clothing yet.

For the interviews themselves, you will want a solid black or navy suit. Make sure the jacket fits well, and get trousers of the proper length. You'll also need some dress shirts, probably 3. I got one white, one blue, and one striped shirts. Get some ties to coordinate with your suit and shirt. You'll also need matching shoes and belt. Next year's meetings are in New Orleans, so you can probably get by without an overcoat.

For dinners, it is fine to wear your suit. If you want to wear something less formal, you can wear your suit trousers without the jacket and a light colored dress shirt and tie.

Let me know if you have questions about specific wardrobe items.

[4_2_it]

I have a couple of Jos A Banks Trios (suit plus an extra pair of slacks) that should meet several of your criteria. They usually go on sale for about $250.

Linky --- I'd suggest black or navy to start. (http://www.josbank.com/IWProductSearch.process?var=stemming&stemming=true &var=num_rows&num_rows=10&var=query.message&error_ query=Go+back+and+enter+some+words+to+search+for.& prod_attrib=5&Merchant_Id=1&Catalog_Id=&RestartFlo w=t&query=trio&optin=1&emailAddress=&optin=1&Searc h.x=0&Search.y=0)

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
For the interviews themselves, you will want a solid black or navy suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[econophile]

[ QUOTE ]
Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly everyone was wearing what I would consider a black suit. Maybe it is really a dark grey. But hardly any cadidates wore light grey suits. I've been told that grey (perhaps light grey) is more appropriate on older men.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

when I first decided to upgrade from khakis to nice pants, I started at Banana Republic. it's not fancy or unique, but they have lots of standard wool charcoal/brown/gray pants that look a whole lot nicer than basic khakis, and will serve as good basic pants for a few years.

for shirts I went to Brooks Brothers and Polo.

now, none of these places are super unique, but you'll be able to find reasonably priced basics and decent prices if you wait until sales, etc.

Zara is kind of like the European BR, and if you are in Vegas, NYC, or Montreal you can find one (maybe other places now too?). their stuff is slightly edgier, slimmer fitting, and cooler looking than BR, but still you can find classic stuff that won't look dumb in 4 years.

both of the above stores can fill your need for work clothing and going out to restaurants/bars when you want to move a level up from fleeces and khakis.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly everyone was wearing what I would consider a black suit. Maybe it is really a dark grey. But hardly any cadidates wore light grey suits. I've been told that grey (perhaps light grey) is more appropriate on older men.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark grey is very standard. Black is totally nonstandard for business attire in the US.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a couple of Jos A Banks Trios (suit plus an extra pair of slacks) that should meet several of your criteria. They usually go on sale for about $250.

Linky --- I'd suggest black or navy to start. (http://www.josbank.com/IWProductSearch.process?var=stemming&stemming=true &var=num_rows&num_rows=10&var=query.message&error_ query=Go+back+and+enter+some+words+to+search+for.& prod_attrib=5&Merchant_Id=1&Catalog_Id=&RestartFlo w=t&query=trio&optin=1&emailAddress=&optin=1&Searc h.x=0&Search.y=0)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice link. So is the whole monotone look not good? I rock it a lot and think it looks fairly classy but I am assuming it probably isnt the best for interviews?

[4_2_it]

Jurollo,

Monotone is standard is interviews and most business dress office settings. The checkered slacks are perfect for dining out out when you want to wear a jacket, but be dressed less formally than a suit.

Another thing worth noting is that paying extra to buy wrinkle free shirts is worth it if you can do your own laundry. Spray the collar and edges of the sleeve with Spray 'n Wash (or equivalent. Then just throw them in the washer and low heat in the dryer. Hang them up and you will have no wrinkles. You can iron if you have something really important.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
So is the whole monotone look not good? I rock it a lot and think it looks fairly classy but I am assuming it probably isnt the best for interviews?

[/ QUOTE ]

Monotone got way overdone on Who Wants to Be Millionaire, when Regis went monotone pretty much every night.

If you're an extremely "manly" looking man (think thick square jaw type) it's probably OK but I think it looks tacky and played out on most people at this point.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
Monotone is standard is interviews and most business dress office settings. The checkered slacks are perfect for dining out out when you want to wear a jacket, but be dressed less formally than a suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he was talking about matching tie & dress shirt colors (or at least that's what I've always heard referred to as the monotone look)

[El Diablo]

Daver,

You are absolutely correct about grey vs. black. Having said that, my nicest suit is a sweet black Martin Greenfield that I really enjoy wearing.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Monotone is standard is interviews and most business dress office settings. The checkered slacks are perfect for dining out out when you want to wear a jacket, but be dressed less formally than a suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he was talking about matching tie & dress shirt colors (or at least that's what I've always heard referred to as the monotone look)

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case Mason, you are correct. The link I attached had a standard suit with an extra pair of slacks which was not monotone, so I thought he was asking about the two types of slacks. I was too old for "monotone" when Regis started the fad /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Also, black and dark gray or charcoal gray are pretty much indistinguishable to the average male eye so I wouldn't avoid a black suit if it looks good. If I had to prioritize I would go with:

1) Navy
2) Charcoal gray
3) Dark gray or navy with pinstripes
4) Tan or Olive
5) Black
6) Navy or gray with pinstripes
7) Light colored linen for summer only

[miajag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly everyone was wearing what I would consider a black suit. Maybe it is really a dark grey. But hardly any cadidates wore light grey suits. I've been told that grey (perhaps light grey) is more appropriate on older men.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark grey is very standard. Black is totally nonstandard for business attire in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I know, this is certainly true for business, but is not the case at all in the legal field FWIW.

[NT!]

this is something i was guilty of when i first graduated college.

make sure you are comfortable wearing your nicer clothes and also that you are caring for them properly. for some people this is a no-brainer, but things like hanging your clothes up promptly, getting them dry cleaned or laundered when appropriate, keeping them free of pet hair and collar rings, etc are really important. you can buy all the nice clothes you want but if you don't care for them and look comfortable in them it doesn't matter.

obv you are probably a functioning adult so this point is moot but thought i'd throw it out there. on the 'getting comfortable front' i think it's sometimes good to dress really nice for no reason, just if you're going out or even just day-to-day. you build up a positive image of yourself in 'dress clothes' because people will compliment you for looking sharp, and you get more comfortable wearing things like jackets and ties for prolonged periods.

[JaredL]

SFer and others:

When you say grey, would the image below qualify? It seems that may be part of the confusion. The image below came up on the first page of GIS for grey suit:

http://www.johnstuxedos.com/Photos/Suits/Grey%20Suit%20One-Button.jpg

[M2d]

Jared,
there's lots of good advice suite-wise here. I was in the same boat as you, fashion wise, and, over the years i've ended up with a couple of classic suits (one lt brown burberry and one black ungaro) that I picked up cheap at off 5th (saks fifth discount outlet for last year's models). since the suits I got were last year's cuts, they were heavily discounted, but since they were basic, they don't look dated. I also got a navy blazer and a bunch of slacks and nicer khakis.

for basic office wear, check out the banana republic outlet at waikele the next time you're in hawaii. for some reason, they stock the same styles as banana stores/outlets on the mainland, but, since it's honolulu, they have a lot more sweaters and pants (since no one buys them there) on hand. they also have an off fifth there, but i'm not sure if they carry suits. if they do, it'll probably be easy pickings to get something nice for a good price since so few people in hawaii wear them.

[Zeno]

Some general comments:

Take the advice on grey, dark grey, dark blue/grey color combinations for formal suits. Very dark blue/almost black is Ok also depending on the pattern.

Color and pattern coordination are key to formal and causal wear. You can even get away with being “underdressed” if your garments are tasteful; you look presentable and project an air of confidence.

Purchase at least two very good dress shirts, it is very bad form to have a first-class suit and then spoil it with a bad choice of shirt in either pattern, color or form. Same thing can be said for the tie. If you go to an upscale shop at least some of the floor people should be knowledgeable and give you solid advice in picking and choosing ties and shirts and general color and pattern coordination.

Choose patterns that fit your general body shape, and colors that complement your eye and hair color and skin tone. Skin tone is important and this is often overlooked by many (especially men) but is very important. Case in point – some people should never wear a green shirt (or tie) or a yellow one. Others can. You need to get some advice on this – I think the gals at makeup counters have skin tone and color charts that can help you. This is especially important if you do not have a natural eye for color and patterns. All the above comments fit for all types of clothing, from casual wear to what you don for that first job interview or your own wedding.

-Zeno

[Hey_Porter]

I'll leave the suit/dress shirt discussion to everyone else, but I think it's necessary to stress the importance of shoes. Maybe it's just me (but I don't think it is), but you could be wearing a $1500 suit but be wearing crap shoes, and you'll look like crap no matter what. They're not cheap, but it's worth investing in a pair of Allen Edmonds Park Avenues. (http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/product_590000_1_40000000001_-1?contractId=100&parent_category_rn=183&categoryId =189&imageType=1&occasion=189)

[Hey_Porter]

[ QUOTE ]

If you go to an upscale shop at least some of the floor people should be knowledgeable and give you solid advice in picking and choosing ties and shirts and general color and pattern coordination.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is good advice. Give them the general idea of what you're looking for, and you should get some great options. Even the Nordstroms people usually do good work.

[Jurollo]

Is facial hair really frowned upon in the corporate world. For instance if I had a neatly trimmed beard is that a big no no?

[Zeno]

Good point on the shoes. Also pay attention to your sox. Make sure they match and are the proper color and pattern for the type of clothing you are wearing.

Also have a fashionable tie clasp and cuff links to match if you go that formal at times.

-Zeno

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
Is facial hair really frowned upon in the corporate world. For instance if I had a neatly trimmed beard is that a big no no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the company. You would be in the minority in most big companies.

Much better to get the job first and then grow the beard while on vacation /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I suggest you forget about working for the Yankees.

[Jurollo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is facial hair really frowned upon in the corporate world. For instance if I had a neatly trimmed beard is that a big no no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the company. You would be in the minority in most big companies.

Much better to get the job first and then grow the beard while on vacation /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I suggest you forget about working for the Yankees.

[/ QUOTE ]

No worries, I am from Massachusetts. Go Sox! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]


obv you are probably a functioning adult so this point is moot but thought i'd throw it out there. on the 'getting comfortable front' i think it's sometimes good to dress really nice for no reason, just if you're going out or even just day-to-day. you build up a positive image of yourself in 'dress clothes' because people will compliment you for looking sharp, and you get more comfortable wearing things like jackets and ties for prolonged periods.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so very important. You can have the best Italian cut suit in the world but if you aren't comfortable wearing it you're going to look very out of place.

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly everyone was wearing what I would consider a black suit. Maybe it is really a dark grey. But hardly any cadidates wore light grey suits. I've been told that grey (perhaps light grey) is more appropriate on older men.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark grey is very standard. Black is totally nonstandard for business attire in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I know, this is certainly true for business, but is not the case at all in the legal field FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my observation as well - almost everyone wears a black suit to court.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly everyone was wearing what I would consider a black suit. Maybe it is really a dark grey. But hardly any cadidates wore light grey suits. I've been told that grey (perhaps light grey) is more appropriate on older men.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark grey is very standard. Black is totally nonstandard for business attire in the US.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I know, this is certainly true for business, but is not the case at all in the legal field FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my observation as well - almost everyone wears a black suit to court.

[/ QUOTE ]

This surprises me a great deal. I'm going to poke around.

[BukNaked36]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a couple of Jos A Banks Trios (suit plus an extra pair of slacks) that should meet several of your criteria. They usually go on sale for about $250.

Linky --- I'd suggest black or navy to start. (http://www.josbank.com/IWProductSearch.process?var=stemming&stemming=true &var=num_rows&num_rows=10&var=query.message&error_ query=Go+back+and+enter+some+words+to+search+for.& prod_attrib=5&Merchant_Id=1&Catalog_Id=&RestartFlo w=t&query=trio&optin=1&emailAddress=&optin=1&Searc h.x=0&Search.y=0)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the suit you're wearing in your avatar would work.


As far as OP, I only have one thing to say -
MAKE SURE THE COLLAR OF YOUR SHIRT IS COMFORTABLE WHEN BUTTONED UP.

Seems like salesman measure you and give you that size. Don't be afraid to go 1/2" bigger and try it. You'll be wearing that suit all day, so make sure you're comfortable.

[DegenGambler]

I agree with sack. In court, I've seen a lot of black suits. Surprisingly, many people don't wear white collared shirts underneath (lots of blues and stripes), despite the general conservatism of courts.

[BukNaked36]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with sack. In court, I've seen a lot of black suits. Surprisingly, many people don't wear white collared shirts underneath (lots of blues and stripes), despite the general conservatism of courts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Degengambler = lawyer

Imagine that.

[miajag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with sack. In court, I've seen a lot of black suits. Surprisingly, many people don't wear white collared shirts underneath (lots of blues and stripes), despite the general conservatism of courts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Degengambler = lawyer

Imagine that.

[/ QUOTE ]

He could just be a hardened criminal. Don't be so quick to judge.

[PITTM]

my job i pretty much have to wear slacks, a dress shirt, and nice leather shoes. I have the shoes and pants down fine, but i hate the shirts i get, either their collars suck, the front comes open because the button area isnt stiff enough or they get wrinkled way too easily, any suggestions here? thanks.

[DegenGambler]

I'm no lawyer, not for another couple of months anyway. I have however worked at superior court, start tomorrow at superior court again prosecuting drunk drivers and the like. You know, justice and all.

PITTM, have you tried Club Room dress shirts? I've found them very wrinkle resistant. Or Geoffrey Bean(e?)? They make a 55% cotton/45% polyester shirt that you can wear around 5 times without ironing or washing (depending on your sweating habits). I still have yet to find a single white dress shirt that doesn't look like hell after a day's use.

Btw: Can anyone speak to the quality:price ratio of Jos A Bank clothes? They have always looked nice, but just too expensive for my tastes.

[*TT*]

Briefly:

1) Charcoal is the new black.

2) Pinstripes are back, when used with caution.

3) Black suits have the inherent problem of damages at the Dry Cleaners. Your suit will start to look shiny due to excessive pressing much quicker than other color fabrics.

4) Generally black suits are best for evening, they do not translate as well during the day hence are not the best option for a work "uniform".

That is all.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[miajag]

[ QUOTE ]

Btw: Can anyone speak to the quality:price ratio of Jos A Bank clothes? They have always looked nice, but just too expensive for my tastes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, where are you buying suits/dress shirts if Jos. A. Bank is too expensive? Four of the six suits I own are from there and are usually in the $200-$300 range for a pretty decent one. If you wait for a clearance sale it's not unheard of to find decent suits for $150. I like their Traveler's Collection dress shirts a lot too. $70ish, IIRC, but again, they get marked down significantly during sales. I don't know of a better option than Jos. A. Bank for looking professional on a budget.

[PITTM]

when i say dress shirts i dont necessarily mean white. today im wearing a really dark purple shirt with orange pinstripes, which i quite like.

[M2d]

something i just thought about. if you're in a job where you're required to wear dress shirts, get them cleaned professionally. the ROI for washing/ironing your own sucks big time. I'm sure i'm probably the only nit who ironed his own, but i stopped a while ago, and it's well worth it.

[JaredL]

[ QUOTE ]
something i just thought about. if you're in a job where you're required to wear dress shirts, get them cleaned professionally. the ROI for washing/ironing your own sucks big time. I'm sure i'm probably the only nit who ironed his own, but i stopped a while ago, and it's well worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does that cost?

Say you wear a dress shirt every day and get it cleaned/pressed with whatever regularity is normal (is that every time you wear it? After wearing it a couple times?). How much a month are you paying for that?

[DegenGambler]

Perhaps I've been unlucky with Jos A Bank. Every time I walk in there the dress shirts are somewhere in the $75 range. Generally, of the 50 or so dress shirts I have, I would say that 49 of them have been less than $50. I generally get my dress shirts at Macy's, Banana, or some outlet if I get lucky. I admit, I have never shopped for suits at Jos, but I'm willing to try. The last batch of suits I got was on a deep, deep discount at Macy's. $700 or so for 3, not including alterations.

[guids]

its about 1$ a shirt. I dont wash any of my nice stuff, everythign goes to the drycleaners, the time saved is immense, and it keeps the shirts in much better shape imo, plus, they look a lot cleaner and crisp, comming righth out of the plastic and on me, than if I did the ironing myself.
I wear a dress shirt, every fri/sat night, and maybe 3 to 4 days out of the work week, if I have meetings or something. I spend about 5$ or 10$ a week, depending on whehter I take my suits in too.

[limon]

"Also, I think that when making the change from student to professor it seems appropriate to not look like a total slob all the time (at least until I get tenure)."

i assume you attend oregon (as did i) if so you must know this isnt true.

[miajag]

[ QUOTE ]
something i just thought about. if you're in a job where you're required to wear dress shirts, get them cleaned professionally. the ROI for washing/ironing your own sucks big time. I'm sure i'm probably the only nit who ironed his own, but i stopped a while ago, and it's well worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with this 100%, and I'm generally a pretty cheap bastard.

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
something i just thought about. if you're in a job where you're required to wear dress shirts, get them cleaned professionally. the ROI for washing/ironing your own sucks big time. I'm sure i'm probably the only nit who ironed his own, but i stopped a while ago, and it's well worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does that cost?

Say you wear a dress shirt every day and get it cleaned/pressed with whatever regularity is normal (is that every time you wear it? After wearing it a couple times?). How much a month are you paying for that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how much per months, since i don't wear dress shirts every day (only when i know i have a meeting that day and I know i don't have to go down to the shops to an investigation). I think i pay around a buck and a half a shirt. shop around as prices can vary. i'm not that anal, so the basic chinese laundry down the block works for me.

[JaredL]

[ QUOTE ]
"Also, I think that when making the change from student to professor it seems appropriate to not look like a total slob all the time (at least until I get tenure)."

i assume you attend oregon (as did i) if so you must know this isnt true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I didn't know you were an Oregon alum (or forgot maybe). I went there for undergrad and am hoping to get a job there (as econophile could likely tell you, you can't just pick jobs like that as a prof because you compete with everyone and they have to have an opening, but assuming they have an opening in my area my connections there give me a better than average chance). The chair of the department generally wears shorts and a t-shirt and others follow suit (no pun intended). Other departments are not this way and there are also a few profs in that department that dress up a bit. Here at Pitt there are only a couple of professors that don't at least wear collared shirts.

[DegenGambler]

[ QUOTE ]
its about 1$ a shirt. I dont wash any of my nice stuff, everythign goes to the drycleaners, the time saved is immense, and it keeps the shirts in much better shape imo, plus, they look a lot cleaner and crisp, comming righth out of the plastic and on me, than if I did the ironing myself.
I wear a dress shirt, every fri/sat night, and maybe 3 to 4 days out of the work week, if I have meetings or something. I spend about 5$ or 10$ a week, depending on whehter I take my suits in too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious but would price change your mind? Here, the cheapest I can get per shirt is $1.75 and it's a horrible job. The service at my future employer is $4-$5 per shirt, which is criminal. Do you have a break even point when you would say, screw it, I'm doing this myself?

[guids]

PS- If you are going to get your shirts laundered on a regular basis, and like me you dont care about the enviroment, find a place that doesnt use a closed system to do their stuff. A place that has all kinds of enviromental things in place, uses recycled water, and your shirts dont come out smelling nearly as nice as a place that doesnt care and uses an open system.

[4_2_it]

If you buy wrinkle resistant shirts, then you do not have to iron them if you pull them right from the dryer and hang them up. Taking shirts to a dry cleaner reduces their useful life. I have some nice shirts that are 4-5 years old and they look just as good as the ones I bought last fall.

Regarding Jos A Banks. The key is to get a Corporate card. Your company doesn't have to be involved. I think they include credit union members and AA members and probably some other BS stuff just to get you on their mailing list. Now I get an email a week from them. They usually have 2-3 blow-out clearance sales a year. Last fall I got one of their most expensive suits ($1299) for $299. I usually stick to their mid-low stuff, but this one was too good to pass up. If you know when to go, you can find very good deals there.

[miajag]

Forgot about the Corporate Card. They give those out to pretty much anyone, including students, in my experience.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
PS- If you are going to get your shirts laundered on a regular basis, and like me you dont care about the enviroment, find a place that doesnt use a closed system to do their stuff. A place that has all kinds of environmental things in place, uses recycled water, and your shirts dont come out smelling nearly as nice as a place that doesnt care and uses an open system.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key words to look for in a dry cleaner/laundry are "Organic", Coterie and/or Couture, and French. Most "French" cleaners will clean your collars and cuffs by hand, and to my knowledge has nothing to actually do with the ethnicities of the owners. Make sure you test the cleaner - go for a walk through their facilities, ask about the pressing and cleaning processes, their environmental policies and the chemicals they use. If the clothing smells like a dry cleaner - run away. Make sure you separate your laundered shirts (never dry clean cottons unless they are very dark colors, never wash synthetic materials without checking with the advice of the cleaner first) because the cleaner will often screw this up on their own. You generally have to pay a small premium for these extra features in a dry cleaner, but your clothing investment is maintained much longer.

Note: I stopped ironing. It was a tossup between getting a maid or using a dry cleaner for everything that needs to be ironed - I chose the cleaner, my average cleaning bill per week is around $35.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[NajdorfDefense]

Grey and solid black are both bad choices.

In general, I think custom-fit is the best way to go if you're buying more than 1, it looks better, fits better, you get better material and advice from a tailor who does this for a living. [not Bespoke, unless you want to spend $4-6k per suit.] Machine-cut, off-the-rack suits look terrible on most guys unless you're a perfect 40R or 42L, etc.

Your basic suits, 2 or 3-button, for light-skinned guys should go like:
navy pinstripe with a light chalk stripe, very sharp. [stripes are great for you if you're wide.]
Charcoal, or charcoal with pinstripe [better than black]
solid navy or Navy w/soft glenplaid pattern,
houndstooth looks very sharp as well, [women always comment on when I have mine on]
nice brown, or chocolate brown color - very businesslike and the right shade of brown looks great in fall.

black is okay but gets hot and not for all occasions, [& you may get mistaken for a waiter], I would get this one later, [i.e. get charcoal instead] but is fine for nighttime instead of the office.

A solid, dark olive is a nice change if you don't want to look like every other guy in the room wearing navy or white shirt/dark suit.

Avoid: I would strongly suggest you avoid gray at all costs unless you have a solid tan 100% of the time. It will make you look washed-out and overly pale. Your tailor can help with these kind of details. [colors like orange, mustard, celadon, purple, etc generally go w/o saying].

Think about if you like back vent, side vents, or no vent. Also, tailor should help you match your shirts and suits obvs, think about bringing ties along if you wear them. Spending $$ is only one step in looking good, after that you have to match what you're wearing [easy with some practice]

once you've picked out your type of suit, pleating, button, vents, colors, you still have to figure out which style/patterns you like:
solid is obvious,
so is pinstripe, altho there are different widths apart and width of striple from wide to extremely narrow

chalkstripe is a faint pinstripe, often better looking than the narrow, bold pinstripes [unless you like loud pinstriping, nttawwt]
glen plaid - http://www.polo.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2370792
-i.e. looks like faint squares/windows
herringbone - http://www.tmlewin.co.uk/product.aspx/Menswear/MenswearSuits!SHBN
houndstooth - http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?s=ebe23d38fe94c655f498080d6c4f5d10& t=14067
scroll down to see, 'loudness' depends on size of pattern
nail head - http://www.execstyle.com/Sproducts_sepa.asp?pid=1758#

No man should be cursed with having only 1-3 plain, navy, solid suits.

Shirts:
There are several different great cotton fabrics in the $100 price range [or less], Sea Island, Turkish, Swiss is really good stuff - some thicker, some softer than others.
Get 2-3 white, 1-2 blue, 1-2 white with a colored stripe and you're all set with your starting lineup. Add in greens, yellows, pinks, purples, deep blue, very pale blue, windowpane as needed. [I have a lot of custom shirts...]

I like french cuffs, as the $0.05 cent plastic buttons on $100 shirts break as easily as the $10 shirts, plus cufflinks look good and mark you as more stylish than the average joe [and chicks are always fascinated by them] & you don't have to spend a lot on them - Cole, Nordstrom, etc will all have them on sale now.

Your tailor can steer you to the right kind of collar and spread, a bigger guy needs a narrower collar & vice versa. There are like 20 diff kinds, just take her advice if you can't see a difference.

Ties: to really look your best, get a few nice ties from Hermes, Versace, Ferragamo, Zegna, Barneys, etc. Wear the suit/shirt combo when you go to buy them.

Pick up a few cotton/[silk] solid/pattern pocket squares, you likely have a nice watch already, and you're all set.

As my old tailor would say, 'fashions come and go, but good style is timeless.'

[JaredL]

najdorf,

The suit I posted a pic of above is charcoal, yes?

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with sack. In court, I've seen a lot of black suits. Surprisingly, many people don't wear white collared shirts underneath (lots of blues and stripes), despite the general conservatism of courts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I checked with big law firm friends in NY/SF. They say no black. Is this something unique to trial lawyers? I've been in a courtroom exactly once, serving on a jury in NYC, and over 3 days none of the lawyers (2 defense--one with lame ponytail and one would think likely to wear black--and 1 prosecutor) wore black suits. Navy pinstripes, navy, and olive.

[NajdorfDefense]

Yeah, hard to tell how dark it is. Here's another one I think of as 'Charcoal':
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7685/380938lauf06dfv4m565775ji5.jpg

[guids]

All,

Someone on 2p2 reccomended this site, I love it:


yoox.com



find suits you like, order them, have them tailored.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with sack. In court, I've seen a lot of black suits. Surprisingly, many people don't wear white collared shirts underneath (lots of blues and stripes),...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I checked with big law firm friends in NY/SF. They say no black. ...and over 3 days none of the lawyers (2 defense--one with lame ponytail and one would think likely to wear black--and 1 prosecutor) wore black suits. Navy pinstripes, navy, and olive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% with Dave. No black in the daytime, I don't see anyone on the East Coast, lawyer or otherwise, wearing that unless they are waiters, policeman, or undertakers.

If you want to look like a plainclothed cop, wear a solid black suit and blue shirt. Awful look, avoid at all costs.

[The DaveR]

ND, Charcoal is a subset of grey. You're saying don't get a rectangle; get a square.

[NajdorfDefense]

Instead of paying $644 plus tax and shipping and tailoring costs for a Prada suit there, it would make more sense to get 3-5 suits custom-fit for you, using the same or better fabric, for less money. JMHO, if you're starting a first-time or new work wardrobe of suits.

There's no reason to pay more for the label inside when you get the same fabric from the same factory, get it cut to your exact measurements, get the vents and pockets exactly the way you like, and most personal tailors offer 1-yr free alterations if you balloon or cut weight.

[miajag]

I wasn't trying to imply that all or even most lawyers wear black suits all the time, just that it's acceptable and fairly common in my experience. Most popular colors among lawyers I know and have seen are charcoal and olive. Navy seems to be pretty uncommon, at least in the Baltimore/DC area.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
ND, Charcoal is a subset of grey. You're saying don't get a rectangle; get a square.

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone said most Volvos have square profiles, I would say "No, much closer to a rectangle."

This is gray:
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1179/b000mt3ej801a3vcex8sut5kb2.jpg

That's far too light for most men to wear and look good. There is a distinct difference btw this one and the suit posted above.

[DegenGambler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree with sack. In court, I've seen a lot of black suits. Surprisingly, many people don't wear white collared shirts underneath (lots of blues and stripes), despite the general conservatism of courts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I checked with big law firm friends in NY/SF. They say no black. Is this something unique to trial lawyers? I've been in a courtroom exactly once, serving on a jury in NYC, and over 3 days none of the lawyers (2 defense--one with lame ponytail and one would think likely to wear black--and 1 prosecutor) wore black suits. Navy pinstripes, navy, and olive.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the firm where I worked and will work in October, suits were not the norm at all. And in the SF bay area, I've found the general consensus is business casual while in the office (law firm wise), but have a suit in case a client comes by.

I could of course be mistaken based on an irregular/non-representative sample size, but when I worked at the superior court I saw a fair share of black suits from criminal attorneys (DA's more so than defense attorneys). For the civil matters which I observed or participated in, the black was definitely represented, though probably not the majority.

Who knows? Things could all be different now. I haven't regularly been to court in almost a year and a half (though I've probably gone at least 15 times since). I guess I'll find out when I wear a black suit to work tomorrow and all of the DA's laugh and point at me.

[DegenGambler]

After reading all of these posts, I think that maybe I'm color blind. When I think about, I sometimes have a hard time telling the difference between my charcoal and black suits....

[The DaveR]

That's light grey. Go to a men's store or tailor and ask to see grey suits. Then ask to see light grey suits. They will be very different groups.

EDIT: As an adjective for men's suits, grey will almost always refer to the darker shades because they are by far the most common for businesswear.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all of these posts, I think that maybe I'm color blind. When I think about, I sometimes have a hard time telling the difference between my charcoal and black suits....

[/ QUOTE ]

In the poor light of most mall stores, it can be hard to notice a difference btw dark olive, navy, black, and charcoal, but when viewed in natural light it becomes more obvious. Under flourescent light it is much harder to see the 'true color' of any fabric.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
After reading all of these posts, I think that maybe I'm color blind. When I think about, I sometimes have a hard time telling the difference between my charcoal and black suits....

[/ QUOTE ]

In dim lighting, midnight blue will look darker than black.

[mlagoo]

ND,

Just wanted to say thanks for that post, that was really helpful. I'm in my second year of law school and haven't been happy with the way I dressed during my summer jobs for a while. I'm gonna look slick next summer.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

Someone on 2p2 reccomended this site, I love it:


yoox.com



find suits you like, order them, have them tailored.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your welcome /images/graemlins/smile.gif Also re-noting that tailoring is always required.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[DegenGambler]

[ QUOTE ]

In dim lighting, midnight blue will look darker than black.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's fantastic. I recant everything I said about black suits. For my color blind purposes, anything dark is black. Perhaps your friend is right then about no black for lawyers. And hell, maybe I own 2-3 more charcoal/midnight blue suits than I thought.

[NajdorfDefense]

No, it's gray. Charcoal is the commonly used term for darker suits of that color. Gray refers to the medium shade which is lighter, of course.

There's light gray, gray, then moving on to charcoal and then eventually black as you eliminate all the grayness. Obviously, there is an almost infinite variety of shades of gray, as with blues - light blue, blue, navy, darker navy, not that you would wear a robin's-egg blue suit.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
No, it's gray. Charcoal is the commonly used term for darker suits of that color. Gray refers to the medium shade which is lighter, of course.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you walk into any reputable men's store (not Macy's) and ask to see grey suits, a good salesman will refer you to dark grey. For men's suits, the unmodified adjective will skew darker.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After reading all of these posts, I think that maybe I'm color blind. When I think about, I sometimes have a hard time telling the difference between my charcoal and black suits....

[/ QUOTE ]

In dim lighting, midnight blue will look darker than black.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely the case. Take everything over to the window and look at them in sunlight.

[brettbrettr]

Monotone is retarded.

[NajdorfDefense]

Why risk it & leave it up to the possibly untrained employee in whatever store some people in the thread will be shopping at? Many guys probably will be going to Macy's or Men's Wearhouse or JSBank, esp if they're starting out and low on cash. Just ask for charcoal if that's what you want.

n.b. One plus of having a really good tailor is that they will steer you to the right color, patterns, collars, etc for you regardless of what you initially wanted, or saw looked good on somebody else, but may be wrong for you.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
n.b. One plus of having a really good tailor is that they will steer you to the right color, patterns, collars, etc for you regardless of what you initially wanted, or saw looked good on somebody else, but may be wrong for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's also true of a good store.

[JaredL]

All,

As has been pointed out by limon in thread and econophile in PM, the whole wearing a suit thing wasn't really the main thing I was after. Basically, I will have to wear a suit for some really important stuff, but only those few times and after that basically never. Obviously others benefit from the whole suit discussion so I'm not trying to stifle that but any further advice people have for just not looking like a slob would be appreciated.

For example, people suggested here going to Banana Republic. Is this significantly better than Old Navy and the Gap? I could be wrong, but believe they are all owned by the same company, not that that's really relevant I suppose.

What about stripes and other designs? I own some vertically striped shirts and others more plain or with extremely small checks, not sure what that's called. I'm assuming that since I'm neither European nor unfat having horizontal stripes in any shirt is bad news.

With pants, are just plain dockers (or similar) khakis fine? I should really word it differently, because they would be fine certainly, but would you guys reccomend other types of pants?

In general with the whole Gap etc look, I find it to be somewhat boring and impersonal - people that dress this way all look alike in a sense. Any tips on somehow getting a bit more personality and tastes into the clothing would be greatly appreciated.

Jared

[El Diablo]

Jared,

Banana Republic is significantly higher quality than Old Navy/Gap, they are different price/quality lines all owned by the same parent company.

I'm in general a fan of solid/plain stuff, but like to have some colors and designs/stripes mixed in from time to time.

Go to a Macy's or Nordstrom and check out what they have. You'll find some things there that are not way out, but still can liven up your wardrobe a bit.

For pants, again, those stores will have plenty, as will a Banana Republic. I prefer pants a little lighter (fabric, not color - most of the pants I wear are grey or black) than dockers or similar khakis.

http://www.revolveclothing.com/ is a good place to check out a bunch of designers that have some more creative/edgy stuff to mix up your style a bit.

In general, though, I'd recommend starting with a trip to someplace like Macy's to start with.

[AnthonyV]

All --

Can anyone recommend a good tailor in NYC or DC to do custom suits in the $600-1000 range? Or is that range too low to get custom?

Also, if I'm a 40R off the rack almost perfectly, is it worth getting custom suits? I've heard both arguments made strongly on this question.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
All --

Can anyone recommend a good tailor in NYC or DC to do custom suits in the $600-1000 range? Or is that range too low to get custom?

Also, if I'm a 40R off the rack almost perfectly, is it worth getting custom suits? I've heard both arguments made strongly on this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - skip the custom suit route, in that range you wont get what you are looking for. Your much better off buying off the rack and having it tailored since your a 40r. I recommend the tailor on 1st ave & 9th street, I forgot their name but they totally get it - and are affordable.

2 - Get custom shirts instead! I recommend http://www.16sur20.com/, and as an option Thomas Pink (http://www.thomaspink.com). Diablo doesn't agree with me about Pink, I say they are very relevant when getting custom shirts made, best you can find for the dollar.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[El Diablo]

Jared,

BTW, for 1 and 3, I'm more a fan of casual long sleeve t-shirts and sweaters w/ slacks (black/grey is more my style, but nothing wrong w/ khakis) instead of button-down style shirts.

A look like this will work be fine for all sorts of situations:

http://www.bananarepublic.com/Asset_Archive/BRWeb/Assets/Product/464/464834/big/br464834-00vliv01.jpg

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nearly everyone was wearing what I would consider a black suit. Maybe it is really a dark grey. But hardly any cadidates wore light grey suits. I've been told that grey (perhaps light grey) is more appropriate on older men.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably a charcoal gray. Even navy can look black under certain lighting conditions.

The most conservative suits you can buy (and the ones you start with if building a wardrobe) are 1) navy; 2) charcoal gray; and 3) pinstripe in either navy or charcoal, in that order.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a couple of Jos A Banks Trios (suit plus an extra pair of slacks) that should meet several of your criteria. They usually go on sale for about $250.

Linky --- I'd suggest black or navy to start. (http://www.josbank.com/IWProductSearch.process?var=stemming&stemming=true &var=num_rows&num_rows=10&var=query.message&error_ query=Go+back+and+enter+some+words+to+search+for.& prod_attrib=5&Merchant_Id=1&Catalog_Id=&RestartFlo w=t&query=trio&optin=1&emailAddress=&optin=1&Searc h.x=0&Search.y=0)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice link. So is the whole monotone look not good? I rock it a lot and think it looks fairly classy but I am assuming it probably isnt the best for interviews?

[/ QUOTE ]

Monotone (meaning matching slacks and jacket) is standard suit. In fact, non-matching slacks and jack isn't considered a suit by many.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Btw: Can anyone speak to the quality:price ratio of Jos A Bank clothes? They have always looked nice, but just too expensive for my tastes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jos A Bank is having a big sale now (well, they were last week). Half off of pretty much everything in the store (except shoes, I think). I nearly bought two suits instead of just one. So you should check again soon.

As for the quality, I think the general concensus is that it is slightly above the quality of most department store brands, though not at the level of the more upscale suit brands.

WRT shirts, I like to stick to a single brand simply because I know the fit. E.g., a Nordstrom 16/35 fits me almost perfectly. A Thomas Pink 16/35 is way too tight around the chest. Other brands of 16/35 are too big in the neck. Nordstrom shirts are normally $59 for the wrinkle free and $89 for the more upscale version.

WRT Tie bars, they are out of fashion these days.

As for cuff links, I love them and have several pair. But others have said they are too "gaudy" for an interview. So I'd stick to barrel cuffs for interviewing.

[Hey_Porter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a couple of Jos A Banks Trios (suit plus an extra pair of slacks) that should meet several of your criteria. They usually go on sale for about $250.

Linky --- I'd suggest black or navy to start. (http://www.josbank.com/IWProductSearch.process?var=stemming&stemming=true &var=num_rows&num_rows=10&var=query.message&error_ query=Go+back+and+enter+some+words+to+search+for.& prod_attrib=5&Merchant_Id=1&Catalog_Id=&RestartFlo w=t&query=trio&optin=1&emailAddress=&optin=1&Searc h.x=0&Search.y=0)

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice link. So is the whole monotone look not good? I rock it a lot and think it looks fairly classy but I am assuming it probably isnt the best for interviews?

[/ QUOTE ]

Monotone (meaning matching slacks and jacket) is standard suit. In fact, non-matching slacks and jack isn't considered a suit by many.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed the use of monotone in this thread refers to EXACTLY matching the shirt and tie. I like this on my Godfather for XBOX 360 character; on myself or others, not so much.

[gusmahler]

Because he said it in reference to the link (which shows a jacket with a matching pair of slacks and a non-matching pair of slacks), I assumed he meant matching the jacket and slacks.

I agree that matching shirt with tie is a no no.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All --

Can anyone recommend a good tailor in NYC or DC to do custom suits in the $600-1000 range? Or is that range too low to get custom?

Also, if I'm a 40R off the rack almost perfectly, is it worth getting custom suits? I've heard both arguments made strongly on this question.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - skip the custom suit route, in that range you wont get what you are looking for. Your much better off buying off the rack and having it tailored since your a 40r. I recommend the tailor on 1st ave & 9th street, I forgot their name but they totally get it - and are affordable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely disagree, you can get 3 suits for $2k or less with better fabric, wider selection, perfect fit and free alterations, tailored to your specific body type and cut and look. If you are a perfect 40R who needs no tailoring then off-the-rack is okay, but you're still overpaying for Manhattan rents and 'brand name.'

[fm191124]

buy off the rack, - get a good salesman + good tailor,,,,i have nothing else but this too add to what has been said

your beggining wardrobe will only consist of 2 suits.
People do notice if you wear the same suit every day/every other day. 1 solid black and 1 deep solid navy is alot less noticable, but can still be stylish if tailored well with lots of nice shirts/ties (go buy high quality ties at macys on clearance, there like $35-$60 ties for like $10)

after a couple of paychecks you can diversify your wardrobe

[Manque]

If you are looking for an inexpensive suit try Target. They run about $140.

The most important consideration when it comes to clothes is the fit. The 2nd and 3rd most important is also fit. (4th is quality)

Most men wear their jacket sleeves too long and their shirt sleeves too short.

Land's End (http://www.landsend.com/cd/index/fp/0,,41177,00.html?sid=4756189100119177982) allows you to design a shirt for a resonable price.

Shirts with a pocket are less formal than those without.

Shoes matter....a lot. Some good shoemakers are Alden (http://www.aldenshoe.com/), Allen-Edmonds (http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/catalog_1_40000000001_-1), for American Shoes. Santoni (http://www.santonishoes.com/) for Italian, Crockett & Jones (http://www.crockettandjones.co.uk/) and Edward Green (http://www.edwardgreen.co.uk/) for English shoes.

Kenneth Cole and Cole Haan suck.

Closed lace shoes are more formal than open lace. Likewise, leather soles are more formal than rubber. Most people won't know the difference.
Get leather soles anyway.

Find a good tailor to do alterations.

If you shop online, know as many of your measurements as you can.

A good online store for suits and blazers is Sierra Trading Post (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/?cm_mmc=Affiliate-_-LinkShare-_-www.styleforum.net-_-758v5CRO9Bg)

A good online store for shoes is The Shoemart (http://www.theshoemart.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=M)

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Most men wear their jacket sleeves too long and their shirt sleeves too short.


[/ QUOTE ]
I just bought a suit for Jos A Bank. The tailor there actually wanted to make the sleeves longer than the shirt sleeves. I had to specifically ask for the cuff to show. I thought it odd that a tailor had to be told to show cuff.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For the interviews themselves, you will want a solid black or navy suit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Grey is much better than black. Black is for funerals.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this 100%. In banking, everyone wears too much black. I've made a point to not own a solid black suit. (I have a black chalk stripe which I like a lot though).

[jackflashdrive]

I sold suits for about a year, mainly because I wanted to buy a lot cheap and I wanted to learn about them. Most fashion mistakes I saw:

1) As others have mentioned, shirtsleeves need to be longer than jacket sleeves to poke out just a bit.

2) Double-breasted suits look much better on tall thin people than short stocky people. Same for 3-button suits (which often look much more fashionable than 2-button).

3) Don't EVER button the bottom button of a suit jacket (this obviously excludes double-breasted). It looks very silly, and enough people are aware of this rule that you'll immediately be perceived as a goober by many. If you have a 3-button suit you can button either just the middle button or top two.

4) Don't wear suspenders and a belt. One or the other. I personally think people under-rate the newsroom classyness of suspenders.

5) Don't wear a shirt that has a button-down collar with a double-breasted suit. Too many buttons.

If you don't own a blazer and slacks, this is probably a good first step.

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most men wear their jacket sleeves too long and their shirt sleeves too short.


[/ QUOTE ]
I just bought a suit for Jos A Bank. The tailor there actually wanted to make the sleeves longer than the shirt sleeves. I had to specifically ask for the cuff to show. I thought it odd that a tailor had to be told to show cuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a specifically American problem, and on large part it's a matter of the fact that too many people wear barrel cuffs here. I routinely see it said (as it already has been in this thread) that french cuffs are somehow "too flashy" (or something) for interviews or work in conservative offices. This is absurd.

This highlights one of the huge problems of finding a good tailor: often when you just pick one out of the blue, YOU'LL know more about how your clothes should fit and look than they will.

Anyone have any recommendations in DC? I know of a custom shop in Alexandria, but I don't drive and am not keen to make the hump down there.

Other notes off the top of my head for guys who are trying to figure out how to dress:

*Learn how to tie a tie. It goes a long damn way to making you look like you know what you're doing. The President has all the money in the world and the best tailors on hand to make clothes for him, but he looks ridiculous with his 7th-grader tie knot.

*Good shirts will go a long way, even when worn under a suit. A lot of people in America (in politics in particular) wear cheap-looking straight-collar white dress shirts that look as if they were bought at Target. Don't. Nice shirts aren't cheap, but they're worth the extra money when it comes to durability, comfort, and overall quality. I buy almost all my shirts from Charles Tyrwhitt (~$80-$100 ea., though they have a lot of great internet specials) or Thomas Pink (~$125 ea.).

*As others have noted, black is for nighttime. Charcoal and navy are generally recognized as the best colors for business. Leave the greens and browns and eggplants and such to Michael Irvin. Buy a quality suit in a basic color and put your personality into bolder shirts and ties, not silly-patterned suits.

*Buy good shoes. Johnston & Murphy, one pair black, one pair brown, out the door for $250. Get belts to match.

*Button-down collars look stupid with a suit or even just with slacks and a tie (and really in just about every other instance except with jeans). Don't dress up with a button-down.

*A shirt with a pocket is less formal than one without. Obviously the same is true for any sort of logo. Don't wear shirts with pockets or logos with a suit.

*Match socks to pants, not shoes. Obviously if you're wearing a charcoal suit and black shoes, you're fine with black socks. But don't wear brown socks with brown shoes and navy slacks. And if you eventually get comfortable with dressing well, socks are one of the places you can mix it up a bit without going off the deep end -- think like a pocket square on your feet, except that most of the time people won't even see them.

*Read "The Style Guy" in GQ. Yes, seriously. That column answers a lot of beginners' questions about how to dress like a grown-up.

*Matching the color of your belt buckle to your jewelry is a little over the top. If you wear a silver watch and a gold belt-buckle (assuming it's not some big rectangular solid thing, which you probably shouldn't be wearing with a suit anyway), you're probably ok.

*If anyone starts to talk to you about how a man should dress and uses the word "fashionable," stop listening. You don't want fashionable, you want classic. Tie bars aren't just out of fashion, they're stupid. Men don't need extra jewelry. Don't wear a tie pin or one of those bars that connects your collar points behind your knot, either -- if you can pull that off, your collar's too narrow.

*Don't ever wear a colored shirt with contrast (white) cuffs and collar. Just don't. Trust me. While we're on the topic of Pat Riley, don't ever wear a shirt with rounded leading edges on the collar. Or big long points. Or anything else "fashionable" or otherwise freakish.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a specifically American problem, and on large part it's a matter of the fact that too many people wear barrel cuffs here. I routinely see it said (as it already has been in this thread) that french cuffs are somehow "too flashy" (or something) for interviews or work in conservative offices. This is absurd.


[/ QUOTE ]

People say that because they don't want you to stand out for the wrong reason. Even if most people have no problems with french cuffs, if you interview with someone who does, your chances could be lessened. Likely? No. But why take a chance.

I conducted an interview today and I noticed that:

1) his pants were a little too long.

2) his shirt didn't quite fit him

3) his suit was either ill fitting or cheap.

4) his shoes were a little bit informal.

None of this is going to effect my evaluation of him. I will submit my recommendation based on his credentials. But there are some people who will make a snap judgment based on his dress. That's why you dress conservatively.

Personally, I like french cuffs, own several different cuff links and wear them to work fairly often. But I wouldn't wear it to an interview (as an interviewee), just in case. I wish it weren't the case and that I could go to an interview in french cuff shirts and a pocket square. But (the theory goes) you don't want to be known as "the fancy dresser" when the hiring committee is looking at you. (Just like you don't want to be known as "the slob.")

[guids]

Why wouldnt you want to be known as the fancy dresser?

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Why wouldnt you want to be known as the fancy dresser?

[/ QUOTE ]

* It could be considered effeminate (which is wrong, but it is how some people think.)

* You could be considered too formal and stuffy.

Again, this is just what I've heard from other people. Personally, when I am the interviewer, I only look at credentials. I may laugh with my co-workers about how someone dressed, but I would never ding someone based on that (unless they dressed hideously inappropriately--e.g., a football jersey to a Wall Street interview).

The theory is that you don't want to draw attention to yourself. I have no idea how true that is. In fact, I think it might be completely wrong. If you show up in a nice suit, french cuff shirt, cufflinks, a pocket square, and polished black cap toe shoes, wouldn't you bring *positive* attention to yourself than a guy with a button down shirt and casual black shoes? And isn't that a good thing?

It's really unfortunate that it seems to be different for women. There's a woman in my office who dresses significantly better than everyone else in the office (her old employer was more formal, plus she has expensive taste in clothes). One female co-worker will be wearing flannel shirt, jeans, and hiking boots, but she'll be wearing a skirt, hose, blouse and a jacket. But she gets away with it and people just comment on how nice she looks. When I do something as simple as wearing a blazer, I get the typical "you going to a funeral" comments. And the one time I did wear a suit and tie, everyone was wondering where I was interviewing that day. (I wasn't interviewing, I was attending an event later that day).

[Manque]

A few more thoughts.

Keep in mind your silhouette. Fitted jacket shoud be paired with fitted trousers, roomy jacket with roomy trousers. May sound obvious but there are plenty of men looking silly wearing a roomy jacket with thin trousers.

For casual yet stylish footwear monkstraps (http://www.johnlobbltd.co.uk/catalogue/fullsize_images/Website_shoes_boots/Websiteshoes/Mensshoes/Monkshoes/Monkshoeplain/plain_monk.htm) are a good choice. The Chukka boot (http://www.la-botte.com/4DCGI/voir_us/CHUKKA%20DARK%20BROWN/RechMarque_us/Crockett%20&%20Jones/Homme/1) is another alternative. Consider suede as a material. These shoes are actually more dressy than casual but they are not formal.

[jackflashdrive]

Also a codpiece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece) never goes out of style.

[geica]

I wish you success with this and I hope you find the answers you are seeking. Also to the forum thanks for having me here and I hpe to meet everyone ! Pleae take care and may God bless !

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most men wear their jacket sleeves too long and their shirt sleeves too short.


[/ QUOTE ]
I just bought a suit for Jos A Bank. The tailor there actually wanted to make the sleeves longer than the shirt sleeves. I had to specifically ask for the cuff to show. I thought it odd that a tailor had to be told to show cuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a specifically American problem, and on large part it's a matter of the fact that too many people wear barrel cuffs here. I routinely see it said (as it already has been in this thread) that french cuffs are somehow "too flashy" (or something) for interviews or work in conservative offices. This is absurd.

This highlights one of the huge problems of finding a good tailor: often when you just pick one out of the blue, YOU'LL know more about how your clothes should fit and look than they will.

Anyone have any recommendations in DC? I know of a custom shop in Alexandria, but I don't drive and am not keen to make the hump down there.

Other notes off the top of my head for guys who are trying to figure out how to dress:

*Learn how to tie a tie. It goes a long damn way to making you look like you know what you're doing. The President has all the money in the world and the best tailors on hand to make clothes for him, but he looks ridiculous with his 7th-grader tie knot.

*Good shirts will go a long way, even when worn under a suit. A lot of people in America (in politics in particular) wear cheap-looking straight-collar white dress shirts that look as if they were bought at Target. Don't. Nice shirts aren't cheap, but they're worth the extra money when it comes to durability, comfort, and overall quality. I buy almost all my shirts from Charles Tyrwhitt (~$80-$100 ea., though they have a lot of great internet specials) or Thomas Pink (~$125 ea.).

*As others have noted, black is for nighttime. Charcoal and navy are generally recognized as the best colors for business. Leave the greens and browns and eggplants and such to Michael Irvin. Buy a quality suit in a basic color and put your personality into bolder shirts and ties, not silly-patterned suits.

*Buy good shoes. Johnston & Murphy, one pair black, one pair brown, out the door for $250. Get belts to match.

*Button-down collars look stupid with a suit or even just with slacks and a tie (and really in just about every other instance except with jeans). Don't dress up with a button-down.

*A shirt with a pocket is less formal than one without. Obviously the same is true for any sort of logo. Don't wear shirts with pockets or logos with a suit.

*Match socks to pants, not shoes. Obviously if you're wearing a charcoal suit and black shoes, you're fine with black socks. But don't wear brown socks with brown shoes and navy slacks. And if you eventually get comfortable with dressing well, socks are one of the places you can mix it up a bit without going off the deep end -- think like a pocket square on your feet, except that most of the time people won't even see them.

*Read "The Style Guy" in GQ. Yes, seriously. That column answers a lot of beginners' questions about how to dress like a grown-up.

*Matching the color of your belt buckle to your jewelry is a little over the top. If you wear a silver watch and a gold belt-buckle (assuming it's not some big rectangular solid thing, which you probably shouldn't be wearing with a suit anyway), you're probably ok.

*If anyone starts to talk to you about how a man should dress and uses the word "fashionable," stop listening. You don't want fashionable, you want classic. Tie bars aren't just out of fashion, they're stupid. Men don't need extra jewelry. Don't wear a tie pin or one of those bars that connects your collar points behind your knot, either -- if you can pull that off, your collar's too narrow.

*Don't ever wear a colored shirt with contrast (white) cuffs and collar. Just don't. Trust me. While we're on the topic of Pat Riley, don't ever wear a shirt with rounded leading edges on the collar. Or big long points. Or anything else "fashionable" or otherwise freakish.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow..that was about 12 for 12 there.

great advice. i esp like the advice on collars. There's nothing worse that an otherwise great shirt ruined by a [censored] up collar w/ rounded edges or too narrow or button down or it's white and my shirt is blue. WTF? I'm not casting for Wall Street 2 here.
Also, I always am losing the plastic tabs that go in the collar, so I generally ask for extras when I buy my shirts and I will usually get a few thrown in.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
*Learn how to tie a tie. It goes a long damn way to making you look like you know what you're doing. The President has all the money in the world and the best tailors on hand to make clothes for him, but he looks ridiculous with his 7th-grader tie knot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He has an odd love of light blue ties. But I've never noticed him being sloppy with it. http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Feb2003/030114-O-0000D-001.html

I've read that he usually wears custome suits and shirts.

[Freakin]

[ QUOTE ]
just be balla all the time like this badass dude. the old school phone is key too.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not too late
temporarily out of stock though (http://www.daydeal.com/product.php?productid=14621)http://www.daydeal.com/product.php?productid=14621)

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*Learn how to tie a tie. It goes a long damn way to making you look like you know what you're doing. The President has all the money in the world and the best tailors on hand to make clothes for him, but he looks ridiculous with his 7th-grader tie knot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really? He has an odd love of light blue ties. But I've never noticed him being sloppy with it. http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Feb2003/030114-O-0000D-001.html

I've read that he usually wears custome suits and shirts.

[/ QUOTE ]
The photo you linked is one of the best knots I've seen the President wear. Usually he's got some kind of lame-looking limp square working. Hint: the bottom of the knot should be tight, meaning that your tie narrows dramatically where it comes through the knot. I almost always wear a double windsor in a cutaway/English-spread collar, which looks something like this:
http://www.brooksbrothers.com/content/tieknots/images/windsor8.jpg

Here's an example of a horrible one where the bottom of the knot isn't pinched tight enough:
http://www.ehow.com/images/ehows/hero/doublewindsor_hero.jpg

More example mistakes here -- ill-fitting shirt with narrow, button-down collar, logo, and poorly-tied tie:
http://joe.english.purdue.edu/sites/surviving/sites/joe.english.purdue.edu.sites.surviving/files/finish.jpg

Now, someone who dresses very, very well (though most people can't pull off what he does and his knot could be better in this photo):
http://www.nba.com/media/LeBron_051019_600.jpg

So there are some examples on knots.

[lapoker17]

you give a lot of good advice, but these few things deserve comment:


[ QUOTE ]
Buy a quality suit in a basic color and put your personality into bolder shirts and ties


Buy good shoes. Johnston & Murphy, one pair black, one pair brown, out the door for $250. Get belts to match.


And if you eventually get comfortable with dressing well, socks are one of the places you can mix it up a bit

[/ QUOTE ]

the majority of people do not know how to dress. i think giving them license to experiment with "bolder" shirts and ties is a recipe for disaster.

though johnston and murphy shoes are fine, this recommendation, combined with your obvious knowledge, may lead people to believe that they are the gold standard for fine footwear, which is, of course, not the case.

on the socks thing, i think "mixing it up" is never correct and is very 80's in the wrong way. also, in most casual to semi-casual situations, no socks is a fine option.

[firstyearclay]

[ QUOTE ]


Buy good shoes. Johnston & Murphy, one pair black, one pair brown, out the door for $250. Get belts to match.

[/ QUOTE ]

though johnston and murphy shoes are fine, this recommendation, combined with your obvious knowledge, may lead people to believe that they are the gold standard for fine footwear, which is, of course, not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

lapoker brought up a good point.

Shoes are VERY important.

I have had nice shoes from J&M, ecco, mephisto, and they are all great as they last forever (with regular cleanings) but, I am having a problem locating nice "shoes" for my jeans, t-shirt, suit pants nights.

Basically, when I am ready to go out I have all of the outfit ready to go......For Example:

Suit Jacket (http://www.josbank.com/Images/Catalog/ProductImages/9240e.jpg)

T-Shirt (http://www.oddica.com/catalog/images/bluebird_main.gif)

Deisel Jeans (http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:c_pDa5gqQjXpjM:http://www.baggamenswear.co.uk/acatalog/IMG_2014m.jpg)

Cream/off white Polo socks
(no pic)

and then shoes!#@*$*(#$*(&@#(*$&#@!@#@!$!!!!!!!!!!

Here is what I wear sometimes:

Mephisto Javelin Dark Brown (http://www.zappos.com/images/719/7190578/1733-186748-t.jpg)

This is where I run into a problem. I have a nice outfit and then lame kinda more dressy for this outfit "dress shoes".

So I have been going back to something better suited but definitely less formal. Such as:

Adidas Original 74 Italia (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://z.about.com/d/mensfashion/1/0/v/7/AdidasItalia.jpg&imgrefurl=http://mensfashion.about.com/od/shoesbeltsandmore/ss/RetroSneaks_3.htm&h=240&w=240&sz=10&hl=en&start=3& tbnid=Q0TRjF_aCB7GDM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dadidas%2Bitalia%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3De n%26sa%3DG)

So this outfit is ok for strolling around bars, but when i want to go to a club I get shot down for either earing sneakers or flops. I guess I am looking for more ideas for shoes to wear "out" instead of being too dressy or too sneakery. I was looking on zappos last night at some sneakers that fit the in between mold in my mind. These shoes I think would be dressy sneakery:

Lacoste (http://www.zappos.com/images/727/7271264/2249-316368-p.jpg)

Puma Sport fashion Van Slobbe Korbballschuh (http://www.zappos.com/images/725/7253511/3832-283366-p.jpg)

Michael Toschi (little bit more dressy) (http://www.zappos.com/images/681/7151681/985-113771-p.jpg)

adidas Originals Porsche Classic (http://www.zappos.com/images/728/7289463/6220-353991-p.jpg)


Any other recommendations?

Thanks.


FYC


P.S. For some reason, I was unable to post pics, and had to go back and post the URL's....Did I have to many pics??? WTF!

[Manque]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a specifically American problem, and on large part it's a matter of the fact that too many people wear barrel cuffs here. I routinely see it said (as it already has been in this thread) that french cuffs are somehow "too flashy" (or something) for interviews or work in conservative offices. This is absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think barrel cuffs are the problem. It's simply that most men buy/are sold shirts with too short sleeves. Barrel or not, the sleeve should cover the wrist and just touch the root of the thumb.

Another problem is that shirts shrink after washing them.


[ QUOTE ]
*Button-down collars look stupid with a suit or even just with slacks and a tie (and really in just about every other instance except with jeans). Don't dress up with a button-down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I don't know about that (http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/mockingbird/159/66.jpg)

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Lacoste (http://www.zappos.com/images/727/7271264/2249-316368-p.jpg)

Puma Sport fashion Van Slobbe Korbballschuh (http://www.zappos.com/images/725/7253511/3832-283366-p.jpg)

Michael Toschi (little bit more dressy) (http://www.zappos.com/images/681/7151681/985-113771-p.jpg)

adidas Originals Porsche Classic (http://www.zappos.com/images/728/7289463/6220-353991-p.jpg)


[/ QUOTE ]

With the exception of the third shoe, don't these run into the problem of not being let into a club because you're wearing sneakers?

How about a dress boot? Like this: http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/pro...mp;occasion=189 (http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline/product_6440293_1_40000000001_-1?contractId=100&parent_category_rn=183&categoryId =189&&imageType=1&occasion=189)

They come in a variety of materials. Brown suede might be good.

Or the chukka boot:
http://www.aldenshoes.com/DrawOneShoe.asp?CategoryID=90

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]

the majority of people do not know how to dress. i think giving them license to experiment with "bolder" shirts and ties is a recipe for disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]
The implication was "...once you know what you're doing."

If you're new at this, you're going to be a lot better off with this look
http://www.hawesandcurtis.com/images/images%5Cproducts%5CWarwick%5CMS-WA1523m.jpg

or this
http://www.hawesandcurtis.com/images/images%5Cproducts%5CLudlow%5CMS-LU1463m.jpg

than trying to pull off this one
http://www.hawesandcurtis.com/images/images%5Cproducts%5CLudlow%5CMS-LU3579m.jpg

or this.
http://www.hawesandcurtis.com/images/images%5Cproducts%5CWindsor%5CMS-WI2902m..jpg

[ QUOTE ]
though johnston and murphy shoes are fine, this recommendation, combined with your obvious knowledge, may lead people to believe that they are the gold standard for fine footwear, which is, of course, not the case.

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought we were doing "dressing for dummies"? For people buying their first professional wardrobe, Johnston & Murphy is pretty close to the "gold standard." A guy who's wearing a suit for the first time in his life doesn't need anything more expensive or well-constructed than this.

If we're talking about people who want to spend a little more money and get a nicer product, there are a lot of options. As I would probably tend to go with Charles Tyrwhitt
http://www.ctshirts.co.uk/ProImages/MCABLK_2.jpg

Allen Edmonds
http://www.allenedmonds.com/wcsstore/AllenEdmonds/images/database/Lambert.jpg
or something custom made (assuming we're talking balla, money-is-no-object), I'll let others give the high-end shoe recommendations.
[ QUOTE ]
on the socks thing, i think "mixing it up" is never correct and is very 80's in the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does this mean you always wear black, grey, brown, or navy? You'd never wear these, for example
http://www.thomaspink.co.uk/images/html-products/Ribbed_Heel__Toe_Socks-83200132P3D.jpg

or these?
http://www.thomaspink.co.uk/images/html-products/Cashmere_Socks-83200115P2X.jpg

I don't think there's anything 80s or "wrong" about wearing bolder solid or striped socks with a suit. I do think you have to be confident and to some extent be "guy who dresses very well" to be able to pull it off, just the same as you would with a lot of bold color shirt/tie combinations.
[ QUOTE ]
also, in most casual to semi-casual situations, no socks is a fine option.

[/ QUOTE ]Am I being leveled?

I think this is horrible, horrible advice, especially if we're talking about professional dress (as I thought we were). Maybe this is a California thing, but if you want to talk about "80s in the wrong way," no socks is it. I've rarely seen a man pull this off without looking ridiculous.

[lapoker17]

yeah - i'd never wear any of those socks and i am certainly confident and well dressed - the only guys i ever see who mix it up with socks and look ok are like flamboyant lawyers in their 60s and nutty older professors. just not cool.

haha sorry - the no socks thing wasn't directed at you, nor did it have anything thing to do with "business dress" or whatever - a simple non sequitir - i didn't even realize this thread was specifically about business dress! i did say casual, so i thought that would make it separate from my other comments, but should've made it a new paragraph.

[cjmewett]

Ok, as a follow-up to the socks issue (assuming we're talking casual), what sort of shoes are you wearing on your sweaty hoofs?

[lapoker17]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, as a follow-up to the socks issue (assuming we're talking casual), what sort of shoes are you wearing on your sweaty hoofs?

[/ QUOTE ]

you name it, baby! i've got tons of shoes.

[The DaveR]

CT shirts are made in China. If you're going to pay for English shirts make sure they're made in England.

J&M is not "the gold standard" for dress shoes.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
CT shirts are made in China. If you're going to pay for English shirts make sure they're made in England.

[/ QUOTE ]What shirt maker would you recommend?

[ QUOTE ]
J&M is not "the gold standard" for dress shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

He qualified his statement by saying it's the gold standard for people starting out building a wardrobe. Not that it's the gold standard for all dress shoes.

[ QUOTE ]
For people buying their first professional wardrobe, Johnston & Murphy is pretty close to the "gold standard." A guy who's wearing a suit for the first time in his life doesn't need anything more expensive or well-constructed than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CT shirts are made in China. If you're going to pay for English shirts make sure they're made in England.

[/ QUOTE ]What shirt maker would you recommend?

[ QUOTE ]
J&M is not "the gold standard" for dress shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]

He qualified his statement by saying it's the gold standard for people starting out building a wardrobe. Not that it's the gold standard for all dress shoes.

[ QUOTE ]
For people buying their first professional wardrobe, Johnston & Murphy is pretty close to the "gold standard." A guy who's wearing a suit for the first time in his life doesn't need anything more expensive or well-constructed than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

In most cities you're just not going to be able to get English shirts. A&S is standard, so is Harvie & Hudson and others. But the point is that CT isn't much different in construction from your standard Nordstrom shirt although it will have more flair. CT and Thomas Pink are very good at marketing a certain image but there's nothing great about the shirts themselves.

I think AE shoes are much better made than J&M for about the same price. J&M are somewhat gaudy and pretty shoddy IMO. I expect dress shoes to last 10+ years and I doubt you'll get that kind of mileage from J&M.

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
CT shirts are made in China. If you're going to pay for English shirts make sure they're made in England.

J&M is not "the gold standard" for dress shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be helpful if you actually read the posts you mean to respond to.

1.) It should be abundantly clear that I am not asserting that J&M are the best shoes you can buy.

2.) AE and J&M are NOT "roughly the same price," unless by "roughly the same price" you actually mean "about double."

3.) CT is English in cut and design, and their shirts cost 50%-75% of what you'll pay at most Jermyn Street shirtmakers. So I'm not sure if this qualifies as "paying for English shirts and not getting them."

4.) If your shirt snobbery requires a finer standard than CT, Pink, Turnbull & Asser, Gieves and Hawkes, Hawes and Curtis, etc. then this probably isn't the appropriate thread for you. Why do you derisively suggest that CT shirts "aren't much better than what you get at Nordstrom"? Faconnable, for example, seems to be of perfectly acceptable quality.

Clothes/shirt snobbery is fine and all, but the genesis of this thread was a question from a guy who's essentially learning how to dress. You're coming in here and telling him that the $200 shoes and $125 shirts that others are recommending to him are pieces of [censored]. At this rate, don't you think you're just encouraging people to give up the ol' ghost on trying to dress well?

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
2.) AE and J&M are NOT "roughly the same price," unless by "roughly the same price" you actually mean "about double."


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. J&M is between $100 and $150. AEs list at $305.

[cardsharkk04]

[ QUOTE ]

*Don't ever wear a colored shirt with contrast (white) cuffs and collar. Just don't. Trust me. While we're on the topic of Pat Riley, don't ever wear a shirt with rounded leading edges on the collar. Or big long points. Or anything else "fashionable" or otherwise freakish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CT shirts are made in China. If you're going to pay for English shirts make sure they're made in England.

J&M is not "the gold standard" for dress shoes.

[/ QUOTE ]
It would be helpful if you actually read the posts you mean to respond to.

1.) It should be abundantly clear that I am not asserting that J&M are the best shoes you can buy.

2.) AE and J&M are NOT "roughly the same price," unless by "roughly the same price" you actually mean "about double."

3.) CT is English in cut and design, and their shirts cost 50%-75% of what you'll pay at most Jermyn Street shirtmakers. So I'm not sure if this qualifies as "paying for English shirts and not getting them."

4.) If your shirt snobbery requires a finer standard than CT, Pink, Turnbull & Asser, Gieves and Hawkes, Hawes and Curtis, etc. then this probably isn't the appropriate thread for you. Why do you derisively suggest that CT shirts "aren't much better than what you get at Nordstrom"? Faconnable, for example, seems to be of perfectly acceptable quality.

Clothes/shirt snobbery is fine and all, but the genesis of this thread was a question from a guy who's essentially learning how to dress. You're coming in here and telling him that the $200 shoes and $125 shirts that others are recommending to him are pieces of [censored]. At this rate, don't you think you're just encouraging people to give up the ol' ghost on trying to dress well?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first pair of standard black oxfords I found on the J&M site:

$265 (http://www.johnstonmurphy.com/catalog_detail.aspx?CNAME=Footwear&SNAME=Dress&S2N AME=Lace-up%2fOxford&PLOID=22492)

AE is about $300. So hardly double.

Second, it's hilarious for you to write "It would be helpful if you actually read the posts you mean to respond to," and then go off about things I never said. My comments about mediocre construction were about CT & Pink only. Not other English shirtmakers. Third, I didn't say anything derisive about Nordstrom. Nordstrom shirts are inexpensive and of decent quality--they're not trying to be anything they don't claim. Don't read between the lines.

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

*Don't ever wear a colored shirt with contrast (white) cuffs and collar. Just don't. Trust me. While we're on the topic of Pat Riley, don't ever wear a shirt with rounded leading edges on the collar. Or big long points. Or anything else "fashionable" or otherwise freakish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it looks ridiculous, simply put.

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, it's hilarious for you to write "It would be helpful if you actually read the posts you mean to respond to," and then go off about things I never said.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please highlight the "things I went off about" that you never said.

Again, with Tyrwhitt and Pink you're talking about $100-$150 shirts. You suggest that the OP or others who want a certain look at a reasonable price should look elsewhere because these two brands somehow misrepresent themselves. I think that's silly. You're still getting higher quality than Brooks Brothers, for example, not to mention a style that is distinctive (in the States, in any event). So what is your point, exactly?

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Second, it's hilarious for you to write "It would be helpful if you actually read the posts you mean to respond to," and then go off about things I never said.

[/ QUOTE ]
Please highlight the "things I went off about" that you never said.

Again, with Tyrwhitt and Pink you're talking about $100-$150 shirts. You suggest that the OP or others who want a certain look at a reasonable price should look elsewhere because these two brands somehow misrepresent themselves. I think that's silly. You're still getting higher quality than Brooks Brothers, for example, not to mention a style that is distinctive (in the States, in any event). So what is your point, exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

CT and Pink are not higher quality than the Brooks Brothers Makers shirts. Whatever you feel about the cut and styling, dollar for dollar, those are the best value and highest quality shirts you can get.

Here is verbatim what I said:

[ QUOTE ]

In most cities you're just not going to be able to get English shirts. A&S is standard, so is Harvie & Hudson and others. But the point is that CT isn't much different in construction from your standard Nordstrom shirt although it will have more flair. CT and Thomas Pink are very good at marketing a certain image but there's nothing great about the shirts themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is how you interpreted it:

[ QUOTE ]
3.) CT is English in cut and design, and their shirts cost 50%-75% of what you'll pay at most Jermyn Street shirtmakers. So I'm not sure if this qualifies as "paying for English shirts and not getting them."

4.) If your shirt snobbery requires a finer standard than CT, Pink, Turnbull & Asser, Gieves and Hawkes, Hawes and Curtis, etc. then this probably isn't the appropriate thread for you. Why do you derisively suggest that CT shirts "aren't much better than what you get at Nordstrom"? Faconnable, for example, seems to be of perfectly acceptable quality.

[/ QUOTE ]

There wasn't "derision." I was pointing out that you're getting equivalent quality. I guess you don't understand this but the appeal of getting English shirts (and shoes, and Savile Row suits) is that you're getting craftsmanship and a product that is still made by skilled artisans. If you want the surface notion of English (big, high necked, spread collar, barrel cuffs with two buttons, bold patterns, bright colors), everyone does it and the Neopolitans can do bold patterns better.

EDIT: Hmm. In the original post I meant T&A, not A&S. Anderson and Sheppard is a suitmaker, Turnbull & Asser is a shirtmaker.

[Mickey Brausch]

Lots of useful tips in this thread. Let me add some pepper. The old Fred Astaire adage about dancing applies also here : it must look effortless to have class. In other words, you can be trying too hard.

Of course, if it's peers you are trying to make an impression on, then this aspect is probably lost on them; they probably try too hard too. But the true connoisseurs of style know that, although it can be learned and approximated through sheer, hard effort, it cannot be possessed except through emotion and intelligence.

Mickey "Karl" Brausch

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you don't understand this but the appeal of getting English shirts (and shoes, and Savile Row suits) is that you're getting craftsmanship and a product that is still made by skilled artisans.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I understand this. What's your [censored] problem, exactly?

The point of this entire dialogue: guys who are learning how to wear a suit aren't going to routinely spend $200+ on shirts. Yes, there is a quality difference between CT and T&A. But there's also a dramatic quality difference (and visual-appeal difference) between CT and the crap that most twentysomething guys buy off the shelves of Macy's when they get their first office job.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess you don't understand this but the appeal of getting English shirts (and shoes, and Savile Row suits) is that you're getting craftsmanship and a product that is still made by skilled artisans.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I understand this. What's your [censored] problem, exactly?

The point of this entire dialogue: guys who are learning how to wear a suit aren't going to routinely spend $200+ on shirts. Yes, there is a quality difference between CT and T&A. But there's also a dramatic quality difference (and visual-appeal difference) between CT and the crap that most twentysomething guys buy off the shelves of Macy's when they get their first office job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I made my point several posts ago, which is to say that CT isn't much different in quality from Nordstrom's house brand.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

*Don't ever wear a colored shirt with contrast (white) cuffs and collar. Just don't. Trust me. While we're on the topic of Pat Riley, don't ever wear a shirt with rounded leading edges on the collar. Or big long points. Or anything else "fashionable" or otherwise freakish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it looks ridiculous, simply put.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I own a couple shirts like this, and think they look fairly formal and, eh, not ridiculous. I'm basing the looks more on receiving compliments from others and being urged by girlfriends to get a couple shirts like this. Also in my previous jobs (i-banking especially) this look was fairly standard IIRC.

French Cuff Shirt - I am not sure if this was mentioned (and there have been several threads in OOT on this) - but I recommend the french cuff shirt sans jacket. I own alot of them from past jobs, and work them into my business casual wardrobe. It seems the ladies, they like it. I wear silk knots cause cuff links look a bit too formal without the jacket, imo. Also (perhaps) worth mentioning, rec'd in GQ recently as a "style tip".

-Al

[skunkworks]

Al - contrast cuffs/collars look better on Asian people because of their complexion. Higher contrast clothing does, in general.

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

*Don't ever wear a colored shirt with contrast (white) cuffs and collar. Just don't. Trust me. While we're on the topic of Pat Riley, don't ever wear a shirt with rounded leading edges on the collar. Or big long points. Or anything else "fashionable" or otherwise freakish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it looks ridiculous, simply put.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I own a couple shirts like this, and think they look fairly formal and, eh, not ridiculous. I'm basing the looks more on receiving compliments from others and being urged by girlfriends to get a couple shirts like this. Also in my previous jobs (i-banking especially) this look was fairly standard IIRC.

French Cuff Shirt - I am not sure if this was mentioned (and there have been several threads in OOT on this) - but I recommend the french cuff shirt sans jacket. I own alot of them from past jobs, and work them into my business casual wardrobe. It seems the ladies, they like it. I wear silk knots cause cuff links look a bit too formal without the jacket, imo. Also (perhaps) worth mentioning, rec'd in GQ recently as a "style tip".

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an instance of me doing what I hate in these sort of threads, which is recommending something that's a matter of personal preference as if it's holy writ. I just really dislike the contrast collar look -- I think it's silly. I'm not shocked that it's popular in i-banking considering the 90s power-look associations. I wear a lot of checks and stripes but don't think there's anything wrong with plain white, either; it just seems to me that if you want a white collar, you wear a white shirt.

As for french cuffs, I agree with you. It's very rare that I wear a barrel-cuff shirt anymore, whether under a jacket or on its own (as with my usual "office uniform"). As you'll have noticed above, I think it's ridiculous when people suggest that french cuffs are too "flashy" for an interview.

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
Al - contrast cuffs/collars look better on Asian people because of their complexion. Higher contrast clothing does, in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it cause... we are sallow? Don't quite understand but hey, works out for me.

-Al

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it cause... we are yellow? Don't quite understand but hey, works out for me.

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[skunkworks]

cjmewett, the contrast cuff/collar shirt does have the unfortunate association with 80s Wall Street power brokers. Also, the phenomenon of turning personal opinion into "holy writ" is something I find myself doing when posting as well.

Aloysius, it has to do with the pale skin and dark hair. The high contrast between the two is best complimented by other high contrast colors. God bless Alan Flusser's book for this tip -- it's something I've internalized and actually think about when I'm throwing clothes on in the morning. Not like it matters though cause I dress super casual for work. Go go tech industry!

[Jack of Arcades]

OK, here's a couple of questions - I've just gotten my first suit jackets but they're long in the sleeves.

1) Where should the sleeve hit me when my arms are at rest (at my side)?
2) How much should I expect to pay to get these tailored?

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's a couple of questions - I've just gotten my first suit jackets but they're long in the sleeves.

1) Where should the sleeve hit me when my arms are at rest (at my side)?
2) How much should I expect to pay to get these tailored?

[/ QUOTE ]
1. The sleeve should end roughly at the top side of the knob on the inside of your wristbone, which is to say right about (or just above) where your skin creases if you fold your hand towards you like you've just released a bowling ball. You can go a bit higher than this depending on your level of dandyism. The wristbone is certainly as long as you want to go.

2. Somewhere between $20 and $30. It's been a while since I've had this done, but $20ish seems about right to me. (Obviously this is per coat.)

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Al - contrast cuffs/collars look better on Asian people because of their complexion. Higher contrast clothing does, in general.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is it cause... we are sallow? Don't quite understand but hey, works out for me.
-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

It also depends on the shirt & color combination. White collar and french cuffs are perfectly acceptable for the workplace with a contrasting color, but not all colors nor all patterns. Anyone who says "LOL, Bud Fox wore that style 20 years ago so you shouldn't," is simply incorrect. There are several style experts who will defend it. But it should never have button cuffs [instead of French] -- as Flusser explicity mentions.

I had to retire 3-4 suits & 6 shirts this year due to age and wear, so I just ordered another 4 suits and 8 shirts, 2 charcoal - 1 glenplaid, 1 navy chalkstripe and a nice lighter-weight olive.

[Manque]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's a couple of questions - I've just gotten my first suit jackets but they're long in the sleeves.

1) Where should the sleeve hit me when my arms are at rest (at my side)?
2) How much should I expect to pay to get these tailored?

[/ QUOTE ]



1 You want about 1/2 - 3/4 inch of shirt showing. Have a tailor cut the sleeve to that measurement. I mentioned in a previous post about the lenth of a shirt sleeve.

2 Shortening sleeves is one of the easiest thing tailors do so it shouldn't cost much.

[Manque]

With reguards to the shirt debate. On a limited buget you are better off buying a high quality pair of shoes than a high quality shirt. I think you should save the money on a Thomas Pink shirt and upgrade to a pair of Santoni's

[cjmewett]

[ QUOTE ]
With reguards to the shirt debate. On a limited buget you are better off buying a high quality pair of shoes than a high quality shirt. I think you should save the money on a Thomas Pink shirt and upgrade to a pair of Santoni's

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems like a silly statement, considering that you can't wear a pair of shoes on your back. But if what you're saying is that it's more important to have one excellent pair of shoes than one nice shirt, then I would agree.

[Manque]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With reguards to the shirt debate. On a limited buget you are better off buying a high quality pair of shoes than a high quality shirt. I think you should save the money on a Thomas Pink shirt and upgrade to a pair of Santoni's

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems like a silly statement, considering that you can't wear a pair of shoes on your back. But if what you're saying is that it's more important to have one excellent pair of shoes than one nice shirt, then I would agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course that's what I'm saying. Give me credit for a modicum of intelligence.

[Manque]

[ QUOTE ]
cjmewett, the contrast cuff/collar shirt does have the unfortunate association with 80s Wall Street power brokers. Also, the phenomenon of turning personal opinion into "holy writ" is something I find myself doing when posting as well.

Aloysius, it has to do with the pale skin and dark hair. The high contrast between the two is best complimented by other high contrast colors. God bless Alan Flusser's book for this tip -- it's something I've internalized and actually think about when I'm throwing clothes on in the morning. Not like it matters though cause I dress super casual for work. Go go tech industry!

[/ QUOTE ]

You really want to take style advice form this guy? http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3725/aflusqe4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[gusmahler]

Speaking of shirts, check out http://mytailor.com/

Made to measure shirts starting at $49.

Never used them myself, but saw them recommended at http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31 which is a highly regarded forum for men's fashion.

[Wilco23]

Try Charles Tyrwhitt. I swear by their stuff.

[turnipmonster]

this weekend I am going to a kentucky derby party, and have borrowed a coworker's seersucker suit. I need a shirt to go with it, as well as a tie/whatever and appropriate shoes (white bucks?).

two pieces of advice:
1) recommendations for shoes, tie and shirt (color/style/etc).

2) anyone know a good place in nyc to get this stuff? cheap is better, as this is a one time thing.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
this weekend I am going to a kentucky derby party, and have borrowed a coworker's seersucker suit. I need a shirt to go with it, as well as a tie/whatever and appropriate shoes (white bucks?).

two pieces of advice:
1) recommendations for shoes, tie and shirt (color/style/etc).

2) anyone know a good place in nyc to get this stuff? cheap is better, as this is a one time thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

White bucks are the traditional shoes for seersucker. Not sure how fast they ship, but try http://www.shoes.com/stores/bass/product.asp?p=5008920&variant%5Fid=27194&hix=1

Usually you go with a more casual shirt (button-down collar) in a "summery" color like yellow or pink (or white). But I have no idea about the tie.

Try searching around at http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/index.php

Also see http://www.styleforum.net/showthread.php?t=13299 (and search around on that site as well).

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of shirts, check out http://mytailor.com/


[/ QUOTE ]

Since I mentioned them, I thought I'd follow up. They actually send their tailors throughout the country to measure people. They were in my area yesterday. I found out that I'm actually a 16.5" neck and about a 37" sleeve. Moreover, my left arm is longer than my right arm. If you've ever shopped for similar sizes, you know the problem: few ready-to-wear shirts are made with 37" sleeves. I often end up buying 35" sleeve shirts that only fit me a few times before they shrink to unusability.

But another great thing about them is that you can specify a lot of customization on the shirts. E.g., I don't like shirt pockets, so the shirts I'm getting won't have them. You can specify french cuff, or button cuffs. With button cuffs, you can specify the number of buttons. You can specify the type of collar you want (spread, button down, cutaway, tab, contrast, etc.)

You also have literally thousands of different shirt fabrics to choose from. I chose a simple dark blue oxford cloth shirt for my test shirt. But I'll be picking a lot more once my measurements are set (some people prefer to only have a single shirt made at first, to tweak the measurements, before they place their first major order).

The bonus to the fabrics is that while they have a lot of conservative choices (solid white and blue broadcloth and oxfords), they also have a lot of stripes and checks that are sportier. From my experience, many "sportier" shirts are only available in S, M, L, and XL, so my sleeve problem was even worse--to get a sleeve to fit me, I had to get a shirt that was way too big for my body. Now, I'll be able to get "sportier" shirtings that are made to fit my body.

The only problem is that it takes time to make shirts, so I won't have mine until the end of June. So it's not handy if you need shirts quickly. On the other hand, once the measurements are perfected, I can just go to the website and order shirts on an as needed basis.

[Jurollo]

For what it's worth I just bought 2 Oscar De La Renta pin striped suits and love them. Both were about $250 each on sale and are quite the bargain.

[gusmahler]

Since you mentioned suits, I'll mention that Ebay is a great source. I bought two Hickey Freeman suits (solid navy and a navy pinstripe) for under $100 each. I just set up a search for Hickey Freeman and my size and waited until I found styles and prices that I liked.

For those who don't know Hickey Freeman is one of the highest regarded suits in the US. My tailor says they make the best suits you can buy for under $2000 (brand new, they retail for $1200 to $1500).

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
For those who don't know Hickey Freeman is one of the highest regarded suits in the US. My tailor says they make the best suits you can buy for under $2000 (brand new, they retail for $1200 to $1500).

[/ QUOTE ]

Or on sale for $600, or on closeout sale at Barney's for $340, I got mine on today. You can always find a deal.

[Doug Funnie II]

This thread's a little long for me to read, but I remember GQ ran an article of the 10 best suits under $500 several months ago.

The brands they had were

Nautica
Perry Ellis
Armani Exchange
Tommy Hilfiger
Calvin Klein
United Colors of Benetton
Clairborne
H&M
Target Men
Express design Studio

They also seem to be pretty big fans of Jcrew and Banana Republic suits.

[econophile]

Based on the advice in this thread, I picked up a couple pairs of Allen Edmonds at Nordstrom yesterday (they were each $100 off list price because of anniversary sale). One pair is black and the other is a lighter brown (chesnut to be exact).

The next step in building my wardrobe is getting some trowsers. I already picked up one pair of dark charcoal trowsers. I want to be able to alternate each day between my black and light brown shoes. What other colors of trowsers would be best for this?

[DrewDevil]

I am a lawyer, and I can't remember EVER seeing a black suit on another lawyer. I think what you are calling "black" is really a very dark navy or charcoal, and yes, there is a definite difference.

A gentleman can build an entire work wardrobe with 4 suits: solid charcoal, charcoal pinstripe, navy solid, navy pinstripe, and 2 different colors of shirts: white and blue. Any number of combinations available with just these simple items.

Also, when buying a "professional" shirt, I STRONGLY recommend NOT buying a buttondown collar. Many professionals do this, but a buttondown collar is definitely more casual (and looks worse) than a straight collar, a spread collar, or even a varsity collar. I pretty much only wear straight collar shirts now.

Just please don't forget to wear collar stays with a straight or spread collar. Nothing says "rube" or "first time wearing a nice shirt" more than some dork with a nice straight collar curled up at the neck because he forgot collar stays.

Final word, which I always thought was obvious, but which I see people mess up time and time again: socks are to match the PANTS, not the shirt, or the belt, or the tie, and socks should be at least as dark as the pants they are matching.

[jws43yale]

I am wondering a little more about opinions on the button down collar. I do agree that spread collar looks nicer but I also feel a button down holds itself as a classic look, especially in certain parts of the country. For instance I am from the south (Texas) and everyone wears button down there, but no one does in the Northeast.

Also, Alden's shoes are more expensive ($350) but look great and can last for 20+ years with resoling. One thing that people forget is they are better off spending more money for nice stuff that will last year than buying cheap stuff that wears out. You will look better and the final cost won't be much different.

[guids]

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering a little more about opinions on the button down collar. I do agree that spread collar looks nicer but I also feel a button down holds itself as a classic look, especially in certain parts of the country. For instance I am from the south (Texas) and everyone wears button down there, but no one does in the Northeast.

Also, Alden's shoes are more expensive ($350) but look great and can last for 20+ years with resoling. One thing that people forget is they are better off spending more money for nice stuff that will last year than buying cheap stuff that wears out. You will look better and the final cost won't be much different.

[/ QUOTE ]


I dont like button down collars w/ a tie, w/o a tie, and a sport jacket or even a suit, I like them.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
Final word, which I always thought was obvious, but which I see people mess up time and time again: socks are to match the PANTS, not the shirt, or the belt, or the tie, and socks should be at least as dark as the pants they are matching.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally think it's best to match the shoes. Of course the shoes should be at least as dark as the pants, so it works :-)

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
*Match socks to pants, not shoes. Obviously if you're wearing a charcoal suit and black shoes, you're fine with black socks. But don't wear brown socks with brown shoes and navy slacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

So if it's "obvious", why do you have to state it? Gray/black was actually what I had in mind when I previously said match socks to shoes. But I agree navy looks better with brown shoes and navy slacks. But it just proves the point that there's nothing obvious about it. I think gray socks with a gray suit and black socks would not look good.

I'd say match your shoes, with a couple exceptions. Brown shoes with a brown suit - your shoes ought to be at least as dark as your suit, so your socks should just match your shoes. etc

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering a little more about opinions on the button down collar. I do agree that spread collar looks nicer but I also feel a button down holds itself as a classic look, especially in certain parts of the country. For instance I am from the south (Texas) and everyone wears button down there, but no one does in the Northeast.


[/ QUOTE ]

Button down collars are fine everywhere in the US and in most of Italy. It's in England where they're too informal. They're also a favorite of dandyish Italians, who slavishly imitate Gianni Agnelli, who was a regular wearer of BB button downs unbuttoned.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
The next step in building my wardrobe is getting some trowsers. I already picked up one pair of dark charcoal trowsers. I want to be able to alternate each day between my black and light brown shoes. What other colors of trowsers would be best for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a good article on "essential" dress pants:
http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/01/essential-odd-trousers.html

Caveat: the author of the blog is older than most peole on this forum and is VERY conservative dresser (e.g., in his article on essential ties, half of them are solids). So take his advice with a grain of salt if your aren't as conservative. That said, he presents a good breakdown of clothes appropriate for business wear.

WRT to the other recent posts in this thread, he has a recent series regarding socks:

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks.html

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks-installment-ii.html

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks-installment-iii.html

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks-installment-iv.html

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Final word, which I always thought was obvious, but which I see people mess up time and time again: socks are to match the PANTS, not the shirt, or the belt, or the tie, and socks should be at least as dark as the pants they are matching.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally think it's best to match the shoes. Of course the shoes should be at least as dark as the pants, so it works :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

You can wear brown shoes with a navy suit, for example, but if you do the socks should be navy, not brown. But it wouldn't be a terrible sin to wear brown, I guess.

My main point is that the socks should NEVER match the shirt, tie, vest, pocket square, etc.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks.html

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks-installment-ii.html

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks-installment-iii.html

http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/2007/07/suits-and-socks-installment-iv.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, those are some pretty crappy looks. I think brown, in general, looks bad with gray suits. A deep cordovan would be OK.

[Austiger]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example of a horrible one where the bottom of the knot isn't pinched tight enough:
http://www.ehow.com/images/ehows/hero/doublewindsor_hero.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your personal opinion or is that a standard? That knot looks completely fine to me.

[AZK]

I've started buying a lot more french cuff shirts. Is there any type of guideline that people go by in deciding to wear cufflinks vs silk knots? Is one more proper than the other in certain situations?

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
I've started buying a lot more french cuff shirts. Is there any type of guideline that people go by in deciding to wear cufflinks vs silk knots? Is one more proper than the other in certain situations?

[/ QUOTE ] Silk knots are more casual. So I wouldn't where them with a "power suit." Fine for a more casual suit.

(Some purists say that you should never wear french cuffs without a suit. I disagree and own several french cuff shirts that I wear semi-regularly, even though I almost never wear a suit.)

[AZK]

I was going to ask about this next. I also bought a black suit and a couple pairs of charcoal slacks, the suit will be for special occasions but I'd still like to be able to wear the french cuff shirts with just a tie and slacks...

[jws43yale]

I am wondering what the general consensus on pleated trousers is. I have two nice suits, and the Brooks Brothers I got pleats. I then purchased a J. Press suit and they don't even make pleated trousers as they have tried to keep the same "Ivy League" look since the early 1900's. I feel that I prefer flat front slacks since I am tall and thin, but currently most of my nice trousers are pleated and my casual khakis are flat front.

I had previously assumed pleats were dressier but now it seems a creation for ever more overweight men. Any thoughts?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering what the general consensus on pleated trousers is. I have two nice suits, and the Brooks Brothers I got pleats. I then purchased a J. Press suit and they don't even make pleated trousers as they have tried to keep the same "Ivy League" look since the early 1900's. I feel that I prefer flat front slacks since I am tall and thin, but currently most of my nice trousers are pleated and my casual khakis are flat front.

I had previously assumed pleats were dressier but now it seems a creation for ever more overweight men. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think flat front is definitely better if you are not fat and are wearing trousers without a jacket. However, I think pleats are still considered standard for suits, whether you are a fatty or not.

I'm by no means an expert on this stuff, thats just my general impression.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
great advice. i esp like the advice on collars. There's nothing worse that an otherwise great shirt ruined by a [censored] up collar w/ rounded edges or too narrow or button down or it's white and my shirt is blue. WTF? I'm not casting for Wall Street 2 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You laugh now, but the Wall Street look will make a comeback when the 2nd one comes out in the summer of '09. Tell me this doesn't look good:

http://www.mtsu.edu/~sigchi/gordon.jpg

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's an example of a horrible one where the bottom of the knot isn't pinched tight enough:
http://www.ehow.com/images/ehows/hero/doublewindsor_hero.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your personal opinion or is that a standard? That knot looks completely fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also fail to see the horrificness of it.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering what the general consensus on pleated trousers is. I have two nice suits, and the Brooks Brothers I got pleats. I then purchased a J. Press suit and they don't even make pleated trousers as they have tried to keep the same "Ivy League" look since the early 1900's. I feel that I prefer flat front slacks since I am tall and thin, but currently most of my nice trousers are pleated and my casual khakis are flat front.

I had previously assumed pleats were dressier but now it seems a creation for ever more overweight men. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's really a consensus. Either pleated or flat are fine for suits. If you're tall and thin, flat may look better.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I was going to ask about this next. I also bought a black suit and a couple pairs of charcoal slacks, the suit will be for special occasions but I'd still like to be able to wear the french cuff shirts with just a tie and slacks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... interesting. French cuff shirts are the dressiest dress shirt you can wear, so I think it's a little odd to wear them with slacks and a tie only.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering what the general consensus on pleated trousers is. I have two nice suits, and the Brooks Brothers I got pleats. I then purchased a J. Press suit and they don't even make pleated trousers as they have tried to keep the same "Ivy League" look since the early 1900's. I feel that I prefer flat front slacks since I am tall and thin, but currently most of my nice trousers are pleated and my casual khakis are flat front.

I had previously assumed pleats were dressier but now it seems a creation for ever more overweight men. Any thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think flat front is definitely better if you are not fat and are wearing trousers without a jacket. However, I think pleats are still considered standard for suits, whether you are a fatty or not.

I'm by no means an expert on this stuff, thats just my general impression.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find pleats comfortable. They expand when one sits. Wearing one over the other is generally just a style preference unless you wear suspenders. Trousers with suspenders typically get a slew of design changes (higher, split back, higher rise) to look their best and one of those changes are deep pleats. Also, the "Ivy League" look is actually post WWII. You really should leave J Press behind. Their jackets are drab and shapeless and terribly, terribly dated.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
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Here's an example of a horrible one where the bottom of the knot isn't pinched tight enough:
http://www.ehow.com/images/ehows/hero/doublewindsor_hero.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this your personal opinion or is that a standard? That knot looks completely fine to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also fail to see the horrificness of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

One can nitpick but it's hardly "horrible." The knot is generally too big.

[miajag]

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I was going to ask about this next. I also bought a black suit and a couple pairs of charcoal slacks, the suit will be for special occasions but I'd still like to be able to wear the french cuff shirts with just a tie and slacks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... interesting. French cuff shirts are the dressiest dress shirt you can wear, so I think it's a little odd to wear them with slacks and a tie only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually opened this thread to ask DaveR or someone else knowledgeable about this. A lot of guys I know wear french cuffs on a regular basis, either with just slacks/tie or a sportcoat. I thought that was a pretty big fashion faux pas. Acceptable or not?

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to ask about this next. I also bought a black suit and a couple pairs of charcoal slacks, the suit will be for special occasions but I'd still like to be able to wear the french cuff shirts with just a tie and slacks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... interesting. French cuff shirts are the dressiest dress shirt you can wear, so I think it's a little odd to wear them with slacks and a tie only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually opened this thread to ask DaveR or someone else knowledgeable about this. A lot of guys I know wear french cuffs on a regular basis, either with just slacks/tie or a sportcoat. I thought that was a pretty big fashion faux pas. Acceptable or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's fine. I don't like french cuffs myself, but that's just me.

I dislike ties without a jacket, however.

[ipitythefool]

Anyone have advice for a suit newb? I did some free work for a friend a while ago. To show his gratitude he said he had a connection in nice suits and could get me one for free. I looked them up online and we're talking $800-1300 suits. Obv I'm not likely to pass on 800-1300 of free...

1. Assuming I don't need this for work and only formal occations what's my best choice for color/style?
2. Since this is a buddy buddy kind of thing I can't run in to the place and get my measurements taken, I have to give them to my friend. Is this the kind of thing that I can just stop by at any tailor for? Anything to know about making sure they're being taken right?

any other advice would be helpful.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have advice for a suit newb? I did some free work for a friend a while ago. To show his gratitude he said he had a connection in nice suits and could get me one for free. I looked them up online and we're talking $800-1300 suits. Obv I'm not likely to pass on 800-1300 of free...

1. Assuming I don't need this for work and only formal occations what's my best choice for color/style?
2. Since this is a buddy buddy kind of thing I can't run in to the place and get my measurements taken, I have to give them to my friend. Is this the kind of thing that I can just stop by at any tailor for? Anything to know about making sure they're being taken right?

any other advice would be helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Solid navy is probably the safest choice, though solid charcoal is a close second.

Any tailor will be able to take the measurements, especially if you told them why. They'll charge you, of course.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was going to ask about this next. I also bought a black suit and a couple pairs of charcoal slacks, the suit will be for special occasions but I'd still like to be able to wear the french cuff shirts with just a tie and slacks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... interesting. French cuff shirts are the dressiest dress shirt you can wear, so I think it's a little odd to wear them with slacks and a tie only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually opened this thread to ask DaveR or someone else knowledgeable about this. A lot of guys I know wear french cuffs on a regular basis, either with just slacks/tie or a sportcoat. I thought that was a pretty big fashion faux pas. Acceptable or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging by these threads, many conservative dressers frown upon it:
http://askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69843
http://askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70453

Personally, I think it's fine.

[El Diablo]

mia,

I think French cuffs are sweet, but generally only see them worn a lot in Europe and NYC. I say go for it, I think they look really good.

[jws43yale]

[ QUOTE ]


I find pleats comfortable. They expand when one sits. Wearing one over the other is generally just a style preference unless you wear suspenders. Trousers with suspenders typically get a slew of design changes (higher, split back, higher rise) to look their best and one of those changes are deep pleats. Also, the "Ivy League" look is actually post WWII. You really should leave J Press behind. Their jackets are drab and shapeless and terribly, terribly dated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually like their three button suit where the lapel is pressed over. And although you may find J Press dated I am only a 21 year old, and as much as I would love a bespoke suit, it may be a few years. I am a better formal dresser than anyone else I know a this age. Assuming I am going to be buying 2-3 more suits in the next year, what would you recommend in the J. Press and Brooks Brothers price range. The thing is that I can get a pretty sharp (I don't care about fashionable at all, just something that will always look good) Super 120's suit for $600. I can get the same from Brooks on sale. What else should I be looking at in that price range?

I will probably get some custom shirts from Brooks, but I don't know about suits yet. I am a 46 XL who needs 38 or 40 at most waist trousers and a 17.5/36 shirt, so I am pretty difficult to be fitted. For instance I first looked at a Brooks Super 120's blazer, but it just did not fit my frame right whereas the J Press fit great.

So in lieu of the fact I will be in the market for a charcoal, and a navy pinstripe suit for sure, what would you reccomend?

Also, I currently have Alden's maroon/cordovan color loafers and blakc captoed lace ups. I will probably get a pair of loafers in black and captoad maroons. Anything else I should consider? Brands other than Aldens in the $350 a pair range?

Obviously this will all be necessary for the boardroom.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is that I can get a pretty sharp (I don't care about fashionable at all, just something that will always look good) Super 120's suit for $600. I can get the same from Brooks on sale. What else should I be looking at in that price range?

I will probably get some custom shirts from Brooks, but I don't know about suits yet. I am a 46 XL who needs 38 or 40 at most waist trousers and a 17.5/36 shirt, so I am pretty difficult to be fitted. For instance I first looked at a Brooks Super 120's blazer, but it just did not fit my frame right whereas the J Press fit great.

[/ QUOTE ]

assuming you are near nyc, this guy (http://www.lsmensclothing.com/measure.html) does a seemingly decent made-to-measure for ~6-800, depending on fabric choice, and though i have no opinion on brooks/j press/whoever, the bold statement above leads me to think MTM might be something to look into.

note: i am not an experienced suit buyer by any means, just a kid out of college who did some research because he needed one decent suit 'for the boardroom' and wound up happy with the result.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I find pleats comfortable. They expand when one sits. Wearing one over the other is generally just a style preference unless you wear suspenders. Trousers with suspenders typically get a slew of design changes (higher, split back, higher rise) to look their best and one of those changes are deep pleats. Also, the "Ivy League" look is actually post WWII. You really should leave J Press behind. Their jackets are drab and shapeless and terribly, terribly dated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually like their three button suit where the lapel is pressed over. And although you may find J Press dated I am only a 21 year old, and as much as I would love a bespoke suit, it may be a few years. I am a better formal dresser than anyone else I know a this age. Assuming I am going to be buying 2-3 more suits in the next year, what would you recommend in the J. Press and Brooks Brothers price range. The thing is that I can get a pretty sharp (I don't care about fashionable at all, just something that will always look good) Super 120's suit for $600. I can get the same from Brooks on sale. What else should I be looking at in that price range?

I will probably get some custom shirts from Brooks, but I don't know about suits yet. I am a 46 XL who needs 38 or 40 at most waist trousers and a 17.5/36 shirt, so I am pretty difficult to be fitted. For instance I first looked at a Brooks Super 120's blazer, but it just did not fit my frame right whereas the J Press fit great.

So in lieu of the fact I will be in the market for a charcoal, and a navy pinstripe suit for sure, what would you reccomend?

Also, I currently have Alden's maroon/cordovan color loafers and blakc captoed lace ups. I will probably get a pair of loafers in black and captoad maroons. Anything else I should consider? Brands other than Aldens in the $350 a pair range?

Obviously this will all be necessary for the boardroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge topic.

First, 3 button jackets with a long lapel roll are not hard to find. Italians are quite fond of them and I just bought a sportcoat made in Naples with that configuration. J Press just happens to use that as their standard model. Second, you're going to expand 2 pants sizes in the next 3-5 years. That's just life, so the problem you have with the drop in most suits (drop is the diff b/w the chest and waist in a suit) is going away. Third, don't be enamored with labels for Supers. The number refers to the width of an individual fiber and that's it. It tells you nothing about weave density, weave construction, or any number of other things that affect how the garment drapes, wears, and resists wrinkles, or it's ability to handle extended wear. Bespoke suits are rarely made out of Supers. As far as suits I'd get solid navy, solid charcoal, a couple stripes and then it really doesn't matter. I like nailhead and birdseye so I have a couple but that's just my preference. Every suit I own is either blue or gray and I don't think that's changing given my job.

As for what to buy, what do you like about the Press suit? Is it how it fits? Is it that it fits at all? I suspect some of the reason you felt that way is because it's a sack. They're designed to fit everyone by having zero shape. If you're a savvy shopper you can find better quality for the prices you want but you sort of have to devote your life to it, shopping discount places like Filene's or Century 21, or being good with sales at Barneys or Bergman. But to do this you're going to have to learn a lot and get very good at spotting quality immediately, as well as knowing what flatters you. The basics are that Press (in addition to what I said before) and all but Golden Fleece at Brooks are fused and if you care about what you look like in a suit you want to get a fully canvassed jacket. Basically the difference is that one has a layer of canvas glued to the outer layer of wool and the other has it machine or hand stitched so the canvas can move. Canvassed will last longer and wear better. There are places where you can learn about this and www.askandyaboutclothes.com (http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com) and www.styleforum.net (http://www.styleforum.net) are two good places to start.

For shoes, I think dark brown suede is just about the best thing you can wear with suits but I would get dark brown calf before you get maroon or cordovan. Take care of your shoes--get cedar shoe trees and alternate days--and they'll last. Aldens are great--I have a pair--and at that price I'd get some Allen Edmonds too. In NY you will always look fine in black Gucci loafers but I suspect that's not your style. I would look very hard for a pair of Crocket and Jones or Edward Green on sale. They're English, constructed impeccably, and they look much more distinguished than their American counterparts.

Also, if you really want to stick with Press you should go there this week. I'm pretty sure their sale is ending Friday.

EDIT: Sales at most good stores are late July/early Aug and late Jan/early Feb. Remember that.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread's a little long for me to read, but I remember GQ ran an article of the 10 best suits under $500 several months ago.

The brands they had were

Nautica
Perry Ellis
Armani Exchange
Tommy Hilfiger
Calvin Klein
United Colors of Benetton
Clairborne
H&M
Target Men
Express design Studio

They also seem to be pretty big fans of Jcrew and Banana Republic suits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those who can go to the Barney's Warehouse sale this month will see Giorgio Armani, Hickey Freeman, and the like at $500-600 and less. Much better quality and feel than the crap GQ mentioned paying full boat for.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
great advice. i esp like the advice on collars. There's nothing worse that an otherwise great shirt ruined by a [censored] up collar w/ rounded edges or too narrow or button down or it's white and my shirt is blue. WTF? I'm not casting for Wall Street 2 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You laugh now, but the Wall Street look will make a comeback ....Tell me this doesn't look good:

http://www.mtsu.edu/~sigchi/gordon.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a standard look that has been around longer than WallSt has been the center of finance. Yes, it became more popular after the movie but it has been one of the classic styles for centuries, and will remain so. And it's not like it has to be solid blue only with contrasting collar.

Listening to the popular media tell you when and what to wear in a given year is terrible advice for those trying to dress professionally. In 10 years you'll need 8 different styles of everything: regular ties, fat ties, skinny ties, solid ties, paisley ties, rep ties, ad infinitum.

[econophile]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on the advice in this thread, I picked up a couple pairs of Allen Edmonds at Nordstrom yesterday (they were each $100 off list price because of anniversary sale). One pair is black and the other is a lighter brown (chesnut to be exact).

The next step in building my wardrobe is getting some trowsers. I already picked up one pair of dark charcoal trowsers. I want to be able to alternate each day between my black and light brown shoes. What other colors of trowsers would be best for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i'm thinking of going with 2 pairs charcoal, 2 pairs light grey and 2 pairs navy. maybe i can get 1 pair of each color in solid and the other in pinstripes. the black shoes should go with everything, and the brown shoes should go with the navy and light grey.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Based on the advice in this thread, I picked up a couple pairs of Allen Edmonds at Nordstrom yesterday (they were each $100 off list price because of anniversary sale). One pair is black and the other is a lighter brown (chesnut to be exact).

The next step in building my wardrobe is getting some trowsers. I already picked up one pair of dark charcoal trowsers. I want to be able to alternate each day between my black and light brown shoes. What other colors of trowsers would be best for this?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i'm thinking of going with 2 pairs charcoal, 2 pairs light grey and 2 pairs navy. maybe i can get 1 pair of each color in solid and the other in pinstripes. the black shoes should go with everything, and the brown shoes should go with the navy and light grey.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd only get one pair navy. Navy trousers have the bad luck of always seeming to look like orphaned suit trousers out for a night on the town.

I'd get lots of grey in different weights (and dark brown) and, if you live in a cold weather climate, or just a place with winter, some flannel.

[gusmahler]

[ QUOTE ]
I would look very hard for a pair of Crocket and Jones or Edward Green on sale. They're English, constructed impeccably, and they look much more distinguished than their American counterparts.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can get C&J shoes at http://www.plal.com/crockett.htm (don't let the prices on the web site scare you--they are given in Malaysian dollars. So the 1199 shoes are actually $346 US and the 1499 shoes are $433.)

I was very tempted to get the Westfield in brown. But now that I'm in a more casual work environment, I think I'll put off new shoes for a while.

[LetItBe]

I was shopping around Nordstrom today and saw some shirt/tie combos that I thought looked great. I really like one that was basically a striped shirt paired with a paisley-like tie that would match one of the minor colors in the shirt (I realize this may sound like a horrible combo...but it looked good in the store, I swear!).

So anyway, my question is whether this is a look that will get old/go out of style/look bad in a year. I am not a trendy dresser, and am pretty conservative in my clothes, so I am looking to change it up a little. But I also don't want something that is just a quick fad/trend/whatever (if it could even be called that).

I am an almost attorney (waiting for the bar results) and my office is business casual (no suits!), so I don't even need a tie that often, but am sick of what I have now.

[oe39]

you want it to pay off where it counts: in the boardroom

[Thug Bubbles]

Excellent thread! Curious about this shoe/sock business. Is it wrong to wear black socks with khakis? Should I only wear tan/brown?

It always seemd that the contrast between black and khaki went well together, but I'm just now learning this stuff so my tastes certainly aren't always in line with "the rules".