Interpretation and Religon [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

luckyme

01-29-2007, 03:25 PM

hashi92

01-29-2007, 03:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are so many religons with each religon having numerous off shoots. Most of these arise from different interpretations of a core religon. For example there are many different christian religons. Some believe that there is a hell some dont. Some let gays worship some dont. How do you know if you are following the right interpretation or religon. There should only be one right religon according to most religons. How do you know you are following the right one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually your mom confirms that for you.
In any case, you're always following the right religion otherwise you'd switch, right?

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think God would forgive you if you say it wasnt my fault my mommy picked my religon.

luckyme

01-29-2007, 03:51 PM

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So you think God would forgive you if you say it wasnt my fault my mommy picked my religon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, he's hardly going to punish you for Honoring your Mother ( especially if you're a xtrian). In almost any religion it's got to be worth theobrownie points. Even if your mom's wrong, at least you'll end up in the same place, and life at the current family gatherings will go smoother.

luckyme

Curtrosity

01-29-2007, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are so many religons with each religon having numerous off shoots. Most of these arise from different interpretations of a core religon. For example there are many different christian religons. Some believe that there is a hell some dont. Some let gays worship some dont. How do you know if you are following the right interpretation or religon. There should only be one right religon according to most religons. How do you know you are following the right one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually your mom confirms that for you.
In any case, you're always following the right religion otherwise you'd switch, right?

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think God would forgive you if you say it wasnt my fault my mommy picked my religon.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say that's another clue that god doesn't exist.

txag007

01-29-2007, 04:17 PM

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Most of these arise from different interpretations of a core religon. For example there are many different christian religons.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you are describing are denominations, not separate religions. Baptists don't believe Methodists are going to hell.

MarkSummers

01-29-2007, 04:23 PM

then why did/do protestants and catholics fight? i guess there were other political reasons, but did the nature of each not have anything to do with it?

hashi92

01-29-2007, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of these arise from different interpretations of a core religon. For example there are many different christian religons.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you are describing are denominations, not separate religions. Baptists don't believe Methodists are going to hell.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how do they feel about the fact that there doctrines dont match. So basically your saying that they feel everyone will go to heaven no matter what they believe.

kurto

01-29-2007, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are so many religons with each religon having numerous off shoots. Most of these arise from different interpretations of a core religon. For example there are many different christian religons. Some believe that there is a hell some dont. Some let gays worship some dont. How do you know if you are following the right interpretation or religon. There should only be one right religon according to most religons. How do you know you are following the right one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Generally, if you talk to a believer - the one they follow is right. It just is.

They often "feel it". The fact that others "feel it" yet have very different beliefs is irrelevent. They are right while the others who feel it are wrong.

The interpretation that the person you are talking to of their scripture is undoubtably also correct. If people read it differently for centuries before... they were wrong.

Please note- with this valuable way to determine who has it right you can now save your eternal soul.

Taraz

01-29-2007, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There are so many religons with each religon having numerous off shoots. Most of these arise from different interpretations of a core religon. For example there are many different christian religons. Some believe that there is a hell some dont. Some let gays worship some dont. How do you know if you are following the right interpretation or religon. There should only be one right religon according to most religons. How do you know you are following the right one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't.

I also don't know if most religions believe there is only one "right" religion. A lot of Christians believe that Christianity is the only right religion. I think all religions believe that their religion is the "most right" though.

kurto

01-29-2007, 05:15 PM

This reminds me of a sermen my brother wanted to play for me to show me the tolerance of Christians. he had taped it off of some religious cable network and had saved it just for my wife and I to watch. (He's a born again and he's constantly trying to save my wife and I)

It went something like this....
"What does it mean to be Christian towards other Faiths? If you have neighbors who are Muslim you should show them Christian hospitality. Encourage your children to be friendly with Jewish children in the neighborhood. Be CHRISTIAN. (this goes on in this fashion for another minute or so giving examples of how you are to be nice)

But if your child says she wants to learn about Islam, you cannot allow it. Your children cannot be indulged to try out other religions. (Here's where he gets very angry and his voice is booming) Because the Muslims are calling Jesus a LIAR. Because the Jews are calling Jesus a LIAR. The atheists are calling Jesus a LIAR."

I remember being confused about exactly what my brother thought I was supposed to get about this or why this would make me feel all warm and fuzzy about his beliefs.

txag007

01-29-2007, 05:35 PM

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So basically your saying that they feel everyone will go to heaven no matter what they believe.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't say that.

The fundamental beliefs of most Christian denominations do match.

txag007

01-29-2007, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Generally, if you talk to a believer - the one they follow is right. It just is.

They often "feel it". The fact that others "feel it" yet have very different beliefs is irrelevent. They are right while the others who feel it are wrong.

The interpretation that the person you are talking to of their scripture is undoubtably also correct. If people read it differently for centuries before... they were wrong.

Please note- with this valuable way to determine who has it right you can now save your eternal soul.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of what is written above is correct.

kurto

01-29-2007, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Generally, if you talk to a believer - the one they follow is right. It just is.

They often "feel it". The fact that others "feel it" yet have very different beliefs is irrelevent. They are right while the others who feel it are wrong.

The interpretation that the person you are talking to of their scripture is undoubtably also correct. If people read it differently for centuries before... they were wrong.

Please note- with this valuable way to determine who has it right you can now save your eternal soul.

[/ QUOTE ]
None of what is written above is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realize you could discount the experience of the majority of the theists I've met. I can introduce you to my brother who will no doubt confirm that his church has it right and that all other religions are wrong.

I find it amusing that you claim I'm wrong. Are you suggesting that the Muslims are just as right as you are? Or how about the Jews? They claim Jesus wasn't the son of God. Are they right or wrong? Because I promise you they feel they experience their religion as strongly as you do.

Or is this just another arbitrary txag comment?

txag007

01-29-2007, 08:15 PM

You aren't giving believers nearly enough credit for why they believe as they do. There is a difference between just "feeling" it, and actually experiencing God.

bunny

01-29-2007, 08:18 PM

luckyme

01-29-2007, 08:22 PM

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You aren't giving believers nearly enough credit for why they believe as they do. There is a difference between just "feeling" it, and actually experiencing God.

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How can a believer distinguish between actually experiencing God and a delusion that they have experienced God?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gawwliie, bunny, only the people in the wrong religion have delusions. Oh, and some of Sam's children.

luckyme

bunny

01-29-2007, 08:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You aren't giving believers nearly enough credit for why they believe as they do. There is a difference between just "feeling" it, and actually experiencing God.

[/ QUOTE ]
How can a believer distinguish between actually experiencing God and a delusion that they have experienced God?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gawwliie, bunny, only the people in the wrong religion have delusions. Oh, and some of Sam's children.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know who Sam is. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

The reason for my question was genuine curiosity. I'm sure txag007 will accept that there are some deluded christians, though not deluded about their experience with God. I am curious how he would suggest someone assure themselves this belief is not the result of a mental aberration.

madnak

01-30-2007, 01:08 AM

I love that you actually experienced God and didn't misplace your brain afterwards, bunny. I wish you could explain to me why others seem to go all dogmatic when they have such experiences.

Okay txag, you claim that many other Christians (who claim to have experienced God) are wrong (and going to hell in some cases). Your justification for this is your claim that you have experienced God. You continually refuse to explain how you can be distinguished from them. In other words, you're acting out kurto's pattern to the letter.

Alex-db

01-30-2007, 05:49 AM

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So how do they feel about the fact that there doctrines dont match. So basically your saying that they feel everyone will go to heaven no matter what they believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry everyone to go O/T for one moment, but hashi92 has posted quite a bit recently;

Hashi92,
Notwithstanding the value or quality of the message in your posts, please please check there/there and your/you're. If you were to say something good in future it may well be ignored because of this.

NotReady

01-30-2007, 06:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure txag007 will accept that there are some deluded christians, though not deluded about their experience with God. I am curious how he would suggest someone assure themselves this belief is not the result of a mental aberration.

[/ QUOTE ]

John 10:

1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30"I and the Father are one."

37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

41Many came to Him and were saying, "While John performed no sign, yet everything John said about this man was true."
42Many believed in Him there.

txag007

01-30-2007, 09:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay txag, you claim that many other Christians (who claim to have experienced God) are wrong (and going to hell in some cases).

[/ QUOTE ]
At which point did I say many other Christians are going to hell?

txag007

01-30-2007, 09:41 AM

When you choose to believe, you'll know.

kurto

01-30-2007, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You aren't giving believers nearly enough credit for why they believe as they do. There is a difference between just "feeling" it, and actually experiencing God.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't get it, txag. We've been down this road before and you're as blind to this point as ever. You're playing semantics but the point is NO different.

First of all, there is NO difference between "feeling" and "experiencing" God. That's the 'semantics' part.

And what's been pointed out that you don't get is that people of ALL religions EXPERIENCE their God. They all believe they are unique. Obviously they have it right because they experience God. The Muslims Experience God. Christians Experience God. Jew Experience God. Wiccans experience their God. The Aztecs 'experienced' their God. They're ALL right because they're ALL experiencing their God. Obviously there are multiple Gods have experiences with different people.

kurto

01-30-2007, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure txag007 will accept that there are some deluded christians, though not deluded about their experience with God. I am curious how he would suggest someone assure themselves this belief is not the result of a mental aberration.

[/ QUOTE ]

John 10:

1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30"I and the Father are one."

37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

41Many came to Him and were saying, "While John performed no sign, yet everything John said about this man was true."
42Many believed in Him there.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL /images/graemlins/wink.gif That clears it up. Clearly the Christians experience God and aren't deluded while people of other Faiths are.

That was so simple.

txag007

01-30-2007, 02:42 PM

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there is NO difference between "feeling" and "experiencing" God.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. How do you know?
2. Experiencing God is not a feeling.

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The Muslims Experience God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you asked a Muslim about this?

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Wiccans experience their God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have you asked a Wiccan about this?

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The Aztecs 'experienced' their God.

[/ QUOTE ]
Have any evidence of this?

Just asking, since I don't "get it".

kurto

01-30-2007, 02:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. How do you know?
2. Experiencing God is not a feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]

For one - I'm using the vocabulary that other theists have used. I'm fairly certain on this forum as well that theists have used this word.

Second- From dictionary.com: DEFINITIONS OF FEELING -
[ QUOTE ]
6. to experience the effects of:

[/ QUOTE ]

or if you prefer:
[ QUOTE ]
9. to have perception by touch or by any nerves of sensation other than those of sight, hearing, taste, and smell.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Have you asked a Muslim about this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard them attest to as much in documentaries. (I watch a lot of religious stuff because I find it interesting.) I've also read a lot of materials on religion which often include testimonies of people of different religions attesting to their religious experiences.

More interesting - You HONESTLY believe that only Christians feel they experience/have a connection to their perceived God? If not, are you just asking questions for no good reason?

[ QUOTE ]
Have you asked a Wiccan about this?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. I was friendly with a Wiccan in school and listened (incredulously) many times as she shared stories of her experiences.

[ QUOTE ]
Just asking, since I don't "get it".

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact that you have to ask if people of other faiths have similar experiences shows an amazing amount of shelter or willful ignorance to the subject matter. And I mean no offense by that.

txag007

01-30-2007, 03:20 PM

1. A feeling is an experience, but all experiences are not feelings.

2. I believe that a) all other religions are not entirely false, and b) Satan exists, and he is a deceiver.

So yes, I have no doubt that people of other religions "experience" their perceived gods, but its not the same. Of course, you won't realize how Christianity is different until you choose to believe.

kurto

01-30-2007, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. A feeling is an experience, but all experiences are not feelings.

2. I believe that a) all other religions are not entirely false, and b) Satan exists, and he is a deceiver.

So yes, I have no doubt that people of other religions "experience" their perceived gods, but its not the same. Of course, you won't realize how Christianity is different until you choose to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) I'm fairly certain they're pretty similar in the brain. Either way, I'm pretty sure its just semantics. No one is experiencing God in the sense that he's appearing in the flesh, performing a few miracles and then flying away on wings. Pretty much every theist who I've come across who shares their connection with their God is about the same as my friend in High School who had a crush on a gymnist. He just knew with all his heart and felt that their love was meant to be. was he objectively 'feeling' something? Of course. Was his interpretation of what he was experiencing accurate? Not even close.

[ QUOTE ]
2. I believe that a) all other religions are not entirely false, and b) Satan exists, and he is a deceiver.

[/ QUOTE ] You believe it but the concrete proof that he exists? See #1 above. Of course if there was a Satan like figure... how would you know that the Muslims didn't have it right and that Satan wasn't fooling all the naive Christians like yourself? Perhaps all the Billions of people who don't share your faith are all foolish and you're the one too savvy for the Satan figure? That's what you would have to believe.

[ QUOTE ]
So yes, I have no doubt that people of other religions "experience" their perceived gods, but its not the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know its not the same.... because you WANT to believe its not the same. You are proving my point with your every post.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, you won't realize how Christianity is different until you choose to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forget that I was a believer. If you have a rational mind you cannot choose to believe something for which there is no evidence. That would be borderline psychotic.

txag007

01-30-2007, 04:16 PM

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how would you know that the Muslims didn't have it right and that Satan wasn't fooling all the naive Christians like yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I can compare the Bible to the Qu'ran.

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Perhaps all the Billions of people who don't share your faith are all foolish and you're the one too savvy for the Satan figure?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Satan has even fooled me at times. He caused Adam and Eve to disbelieve God, and look at the relationship they shared with God! Nobody is immune to Satan's deception.

[ QUOTE ]
for which there is no evidence

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Xhad

01-30-2007, 04:20 PM

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No. Satan has even fooled me at times. He caused Adam and Eve to disbelieve God, and look at the relationship they shared with God! Nobody is immune to Satan's deception.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is curious given, oh, every other post you've made in this thread. It's like you're trying to get the benefits of admitting the possibility of error without actually doing it.

kurto

01-30-2007, 04:32 PM

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Because I can compare the Bible to the Qu'ran.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meaningless. What if God inspired the Qu'ran and the devil created the Bible to rope in naive Christians.

Once again... you are proving my point. Your believe your experiences, Faith and beliefs are any different and less rational then the beliefs of people of other faiths. Everytime you offer proof it is the EXACT same type and quality of proof that people of other Faiths use.

[ QUOTE ]
No. Satan has even fooled me at times. He caused Adam and Eve to disbelieve God, and look at the relationship they shared with God! Nobody is immune to Satan's deception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he's cause you to believe the Bible?

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly... that is the perfect theist response when asked about evidence. Thank you.

txag007

01-30-2007, 04:48 PM

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Everytime you offer proof it is the EXACT same type and quality of proof that people of other Faiths use.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did I offer proof? I don't remember doing that.

kurto

01-30-2007, 05:10 PM

You have offered proof. Things like "I've read the Bible" or "I've experienced God."

Obviously you haven't offered better proof then that. The entire point of my comments is that your proof and your arguments on this forum are of the same quality as those of people of other faiths.

As another person pointed out... your responses fit precisely into the pattern I posited in my first post to which you responded.

kurto

01-30-2007, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. Satan has even fooled me at times. He caused Adam and Eve to disbelieve God, and look at the relationship they shared with God! Nobody is immune to Satan's deception.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is curious given, oh, every other post you've made in this thread. It's like you're trying to get the benefits of admitting the possibility of error without actually doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

He still hasn't explained how he knows that Satan didn't create the Bible and has been fooling him still.

txag007

01-30-2007, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He still hasn't explained how he knows that Satan didn't create the Bible and has been fooling him still.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry. I didn't realize that was a serious question.

txag007

01-30-2007, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have offered proof. Things like "I've read the Bible" or "I've experienced God."

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not proof. It's part of my personal testimony, but it's certainly not proof. Do you think I was trying to persuade you of something?

hashi92

01-30-2007, 05:45 PM

kurto

01-30-2007, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He still hasn't explained how he knows that Satan didn't create the Bible and has been fooling him still.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry. I didn't realize that was a serious question.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seemed to be arguing that Satan is fooling the people of other religions. (I assume that was a serious response?) Its completely reasonable to ask how you can be certain that the other people who experience THEIR God aren't truly experiencing God while you are being tricked by Satan.

The proof/evidence you will offer to make your case (if you do so) will liley be as substantive as I've listed previously. (see original thread to which you responded)

Xhad

01-30-2007, 05:56 PM

kurto

01-30-2007, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have offered proof. Things like "I've read the Bible" or "I've experienced God."

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not proof. It's part of my personal testimony, but it's certainly not proof. Do you think I was trying to persuade you of something?

[/ QUOTE ]

You contradicted my statements (and in many threads you contradict others) then offer your testimoney as a 'counter' to what they've posted. Most people, I believe, would think your posts (counter someone else then offer your testimony) are making an argument for your Faith.

My head spins sometimes trying to make heads or tails of your reponses.

I didn't realize you didn't converse with the same rules as other people. Meaning when you contradict someone then list your reasons for believing what you do... we interpret that to mean you are attempting to offer evidence or proof to back your position. Since you seem to be suggesting that's not the case, it would appear you follow your own 'rules' of having a conversation. In which case I doubt anyone can follow your meaning.

sigh.

txag007

01-30-2007, 05:57 PM

I did not say my feeling was my proof. Are we reading the same thread?

kurto

01-30-2007, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have offered proof. Things like "I've read the Bible" or "I've experienced God."

[/ QUOTE ]
That's not proof. It's part of my personal testimony, but it's certainly not proof. Do you think I was trying to persuade you of something?

[/ QUOTE ]

didnt you say your feeling was your proof. did your feelings disappear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 99% certain he has previously listed his feelings as proof. It would not be unlike him to now pretend otherwise. He has argued in the past that Faith is more important then reason. So its completely futile and a waste of time to try to reason with him.

For that matter I'm not sure why he keeps interjecting himself into people's debates when, if he's called on something he's posted, he denies that its meant to be proof of anything or that he's trying to persuade someone of something.

He makes me miss Bunny.

txag007

01-30-2007, 06:03 PM

Relax, Kurto. Take a deep breath.

I'm just telling you why I believe as I do. When you finally believe - and you will eventually - it won't be because you were persuaded by me or anyone else. If you come to God before you die, it will be because you chose to listen to what God was saying to you.

kurto

01-30-2007, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Relax, Kurto. Take a deep breath.

I'm just telling you why I believe as I do. When you finally believe - and you will eventually - it won't be because you were persuaded by me or anyone else. If you come to God before you die, it will be because you chose to listen to what God was saying to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a breath and listen to what others are saying.

The reasons you list for believing what YOU believe are the same reasons that OTHERS who believe differently then you list for believing.

When you believe that there is no God, and you will eventually believe, it will be because you decided to listen to reason and ignored the superstitious ramblings of ancient man.

bunny

01-30-2007, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure txag007 will accept that there are some deluded christians, though not deluded about their experience with God. I am curious how he would suggest someone assure themselves this belief is not the result of a mental aberration.

[/ QUOTE ]

John 10:

1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30"I and the Father are one."

37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

41Many came to Him and were saying, "While John performed no sign, yet everything John said about this man was true."
42Many believed in Him there.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL /images/graemlins/wink.gif That clears it up. Clearly the Christians experience God and aren't deluded while people of other Faiths are.

That was so simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder if NotReady's point was that relying on personal experience is always going to leave one with this nagging doubt. I have always argued that relying on such experiences is the only rational grounds for theism, given it relies on some evidence, however slender.

In contrast, NotReady adopts the inerrancy and divine authorship of the bible as an axiom. Perhaps this route provides some assurance (to one who accepts this axiom) that they are not deluded.

kurto

01-30-2007, 06:44 PM

Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

bunny

01-30-2007, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When you choose to believe, you'll know.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems to be saying that if you find yourself believing in God, but accept a possibility you may be wrong - you dont really believe. Is that what you mean?

Also, do you think it is possible to choose to believe something? If I consider a question which I dont know the answer to - there is no way I can "make" myself believe an answer is one way or the other. I can look into it, mull it over, eventually I discover I believe something. Are you able to choose to believe on any topic? Or is it only God that you make that choice with?

bunny

01-30-2007, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Internally consistent though - NotReady has acknowledged his belief is circular in the past. He claims (rightly imo) that any basis for human knowledge is circular. If true, this would mean circularity is not in itself grounds to label his beliefs irrational.

I was speculating that his post may have more been an attack on the "personal experience" form of theism which I have defended. It seems his point was that what's "in my heart" is never going to be enough, I need God/Jesus as revealed through the bible to have true belief.

EDIT: In other words it was directed at a believer, not an unbeliever and as such the use of the bible seems more relevant.

kurto

01-30-2007, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Internally consistent though - NotReady has acknowledged his belief is circular in the past. He claims (rightly imo) that any basis for human knowledge is circular. If true, this would mean circularity is not in itself grounds to label his beliefs irrational.

I was speculating that his post may have more been an attack on the "personal experience" form of theism which I have defended. It seems his point was that what's "in my heart" is never going to be enough, I need God/Jesus as revealed through the bible to have true belief.

EDIT: In other words it was directed at a believer, not an unbeliever and as such the use of the bible seems more relevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree with you on the circular beliefs part. If I start with a false premise and then use my false premise to assert my premise... I'm 'delusional.'

"I believe God is real.
I believe it because the Bible says so.
I believe the Bible because it is written by God."

This is complete nonsense in terms of being a logical proof.
And it certainly does not distinguish itself from other religions.

"I believe the Muslim Faith is correct.
I believe in God.
I believe because the Qu'ran says its true.
The writer of the Qu'ran was writing what God told him."

There is no reason why the person quoting the Bible has any more credibility then someone quoting the Qu'ran or "the Night Before Christmas" as proof that Santa exists.

kurto

01-30-2007, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you choose to believe, you'll know.

[/ QUOTE ]
This seems to be saying that if you find yourself believing in God, but accept a possibility you may be wrong - you dont really believe. Is that what you mean?

Also, do you think it is possible to choose to believe something? If I consider a question which I dont know the answer to - there is no way I can "make" myself believe an answer is one way or the other. I can look into it, mull it over, eventually I discover I believe something. Are you able to choose to believe on any topic? Or is it only God that you make that choice with?

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to state that Txag has repeatedly said people must "choose to believe."

As if belief is something you merely choose. I cannot choose to believe something without a compelling reason. I cannot suddenly decide to believe that I'm an elephant living alone on Mars.

I have expressed exasperation with Txag's 'logic' before because he repeatedly says things like suggesting people "decide to believe something." Like, "just accept Jesus in your heart and watch what happens."

bunny

01-30-2007, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Internally consistent though - NotReady has acknowledged his belief is circular in the past. He claims (rightly imo) that any basis for human knowledge is circular. If true, this would mean circularity is not in itself grounds to label his beliefs irrational.

I was speculating that his post may have more been an attack on the "personal experience" form of theism which I have defended. It seems his point was that what's "in my heart" is never going to be enough, I need God/Jesus as revealed through the bible to have true belief.

EDIT: In other words it was directed at a believer, not an unbeliever and as such the use of the bible seems more relevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't agree with you on the circular beliefs part. If I start with a false premise and then use my false premise to assert my premise... I'm 'delusional.'

"I believe God is real.
I believe it because the Bible says so.
I believe the Bible because it is written by God."

This is complete nonsense in terms of being a logical proof.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. My suspicion is that it was presented to a believer, rather than as a proof to persuade skeptics. As such it is more theology than philosophy and doesnt have to be logically persuasive. With regard to circular basis of a belief system, let me start another thread as I think this is an area atheists dont want to concede, but in actuality should.

[ QUOTE ]
And it certainly does not distinguish itself from other religions.

"I believe the Muslim Faith is correct.
I believe in God.
I believe because the Qu'ran says its true.
The writer of the Qu'ran was writing what God told him."

There is no reason why the person quoting the Bible has any more credibility then someone quoting the Qu'ran or "the Night Before Christmas" as proof that Santa exists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I think the (and I hate to use the word but...) context is important. The person quoting the bible has more credibility to someone who has accepted that the bible is the word of god. I think NotReady was answering my question theist-to-theist if you like.

NotReady

01-30-2007, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It seems his point was that what's "in my heart" is never going to be enough, I need God/Jesus as revealed through the bible to have true belief.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a subjective and objective element to all human knowledge. There are many passages in the NT that assure us God will make Himself known to us. In the OT I can't think of a single instance where God spoke to someone who did not immediately understand it was God speaking. Though I don't believe He communicates that way now He does give us assurance through His word and through His own actions on our heart. I think both fideism and mysticism can be avoided this way.

kurto

01-31-2007, 12:35 AM

Hi, Bunny

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed. My suspicion is that it was presented to a believer, rather than as a proof to persuade skeptics.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be true but then its appearance is odd. As it rests within a thread where people are attempting to make persuasive arguments.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I think the (and I hate to use the word but...) context is important. The person quoting the bible has more credibility to someone who has accepted that the bible is the word of god. I think NotReady was answering my question theist-to-theist if you like.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this thread (unless I'm getting my threads mixed up /images/graemlins/confused.gif) was started by someone talking about how the evidence does not allow one who does not believe to distinguish between different faiths. Posting something that only makes sense to someone who is already a believer is somewhat nonsensical in context of this thread, no?

bunny

01-31-2007, 12:41 AM

I think it was probably a hijack of the thread on my part to ask txag007 how he would suggest a believer convince himself he isnt deluded. I was kind of restricting my query to a believer convincing themselves, irrespective of whether such methods would convince anyone else.

I would certainly agree that if you ask a believer how he knows he isnt deluded and he responds by quoting the bible - you are unlikely to change your mind.

hashi92

01-31-2007, 02:17 AM

So what about the people during the inquisition who killed thousands of innocent people. where they deluded. im sure they felt god and did what they thought was his will. if the pope the catholic church can be wrong cant everyone else.

kurto

01-31-2007, 03:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So what about the people during the inquisition who killed thousands of innocent people. where they deluded. im sure they felt god and did what they thought was his will. if the pope the catholic church can be wrong cant everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would appear that many committing horrible acts during the inquisition believed they were acting in accordance with their religious beliefs. They no more considered they were deluded then Muslims on Jihad think they're deluded or the sixty whatever percent of Americans that think the Bible is the literal word of God and that the earth is only a few thousand years old.

hashi92

01-31-2007, 09:50 PM

ojc02

01-31-2007, 11:08 PM

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/376102974_371a34032a_b.jpg

hyde

02-03-2007, 10:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This reminds me of a sermen my brother wanted to play for me to show me the tolerance of Christians. he had taped it off of some religious cable network and had saved it just for my wife and I to watch. (He's a born again and he's constantly trying to save my wife and I)

It went something like this....
"What does it mean to be Christian towards other Faiths? If you have neighbors who are Muslim you should show them Christian hospitality. Encourage your children to be friendly with Jewish children in the neighborhood. Be CHRISTIAN. (this goes on in this fashion for another minute or so giving examples of how you are to be nice)

But if your child says she wants to learn about Islam, you cannot allow it. Your children cannot be indulged to try out other religions. (Here's where he gets very angry and his voice is booming) Because the Muslims are calling Jesus a LIAR. Because the Jews are calling Jesus a LIAR. The atheists are calling Jesus a LIAR."

I remember being confused about exactly what my brother thought I was supposed to get about this or why this would make me feel all warm and fuzzy about his beliefs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bait and switch.
It's about the love....let me teach you how to hate....