Live 4/8 - The unlimited HU raises question

[Roadstar]

4/8 River Rock Casino

Table is mostly loose passive. Villain here is a donkey, plays any 2 suited. I've seen him call raises with suited cards and any ace. Villain does know how to raise, but sometimes over raises (i.e. KJo)

Hero is dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP3

Preflop:

2 callers, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, early callers call.

PFR raise here ok against this crowd or do you prefer a call? CO is almost all in.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif rainbow

Checks to Hero, Hero bets, CO goes all-in, SB calls, BB folds, 1 earlier caller, the next folds.

Standard I think

Turn is Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checks to Hero, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Standard I think

River is J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, I bet, SB Raises, I 3 bet, SB smiles and goes "ok 1 more" 4 bets, Hero??

How many more raises do you go? Remember its unlimited raises heads up here.

I've already similar threads before with nut flush versus potential straight flush and I think posters recommended 3 reraises but lets try to put this hand into context.

I have the 3 nut, AA being the nuts, QQ second nuts, AJ third nuts (JJ not possible). Since he C/R me on the river, I think the J helped him so he's most likely to have J6 or QJ. So how many bets do you go before you fear the QQ or AA?

Thanks guys!

I highly doubt villain has AA unless he's suffering from FPS. QQ is a remote possibility and also highly unlikely. I think the J definitely helped villain somehow as he C/R me on the river. So I put him on QJ or J6 but still slightly worried about QQ (and remotely AA)

[_TKO_]

I don't know how many bets I'm going yet, as it seems your opponent is vocal enough to give something away when he has QQ. I don't think QQ is highly unlikely once he goes 4.

I'm definately 5-betting, but I really don't know how far to go. When you throw your next raise in, see how your opponent reacts. This is one of those spots where a good read can make or save you a large number of big bets.

[wray]

I put him on QJ given that AA and QQ would likely give more action on the turn. But ignoring this we have:

1 combo AA, 3 combos QQ, 3 combos QJ, 3 combos J6.

At least 6/10 chance you're good at this point given that he's a donkey. I'd go one more, but it's not like this type of decision comes up very often.

[eclinchy]

I'm reeeeeeeeally thinking QJ. I 5-bet, and 7-bet if he makes it 6. I'd call 8 bets and stop there if necessary.

[icepick]

I definatly go 5. If he raises, then I'm starting to worry. Pretty rare to see some one 6 bet.

Other than your river question, I think it was pretty standard.

[Matt Williams]

Considering it's 4/8 live I know the type of player you are up against. I think he has K-10o and doesn't realize the 2nd jack gives you a full house.

[Roadstar]

That is a good point - so how many bets do you go? So far consensus is probably around 6-8.

The thing is, for an opponent who may read the board wrong (KTo), thinking they have the nuts, how many bets will they realize?

I've went to 5 bets before on a double paired board (I had the higher boat) versus the guy with the lower boat. It does seem true that some players don't read the board proficiently.

The real problem is, the more bets it goes, the likelihood that you're beat slowly creeps up..... but I dunno how to quantify/guestimate the optimal point...

[ QUOTE ]
Considering it's 4/8 live I know the type of player you are up against. I think he has K-10o and doesn't realize the 2nd jack gives you a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Roadstar]

River: SB checks, I bet, SB Raises, I 3 bet, SB smiles and goes "ok 1 more" 4 bets, Hero 5 bets, SB 6 bets, I say "I thought you said just one more?" and SB smiles again, I call.

Stopping at 6 bets ok? Results in 5




[ QUOTE ]
4/8 River Rock Casino

Table is mostly loose passive. Villain here is a donkey, plays any 2 suited. I've seen him call raises with suited cards and any ace. Villain does know how to raise, but sometimes over raises (i.e. KJo)

Hero is dealt A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif in MP3

Preflop:

2 callers, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, early callers call.

PFR raise here ok against this crowd or do you prefer a call? CO is almost all in.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif rainbow

Checks to Hero, Hero bets, CO goes all-in, SB calls, BB folds, 1 earlier caller, the next folds.

Standard I think

Turn is Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checks to Hero, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Standard I think

River is J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

SB checks, I bet, SB Raises, I 3 bet, SB smiles and goes "ok 1 more" 4 bets, Hero??

How many more raises do you go? Remember its unlimited raises heads up here.

I've already similar threads before with nut flush versus potential straight flush and I think posters recommended 3 reraises but lets try to put this hand into context.

I have the 3 nut, AA being the nuts, QQ second nuts, AJ third nuts (JJ not possible). Since he C/R me on the river, I think the J helped him so he's most likely to have J6 or QJ. So how many bets do you go before you fear the QQ or AA?

Thanks guys!

I highly doubt villain has AA unless he's suffering from FPS. QQ is a remote possibility and also highly unlikely. I think the J definitely helped villain somehow as he C/R me on the river. So I put him on QJ or J6 but still slightly worried about QQ (and remotely AA)

[/ QUOTE ]

[Elevens]

22-bet, but fold to a 23-bet.

Definitely.

[Roadstar]

Villain shows J /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, MHIG /images/graemlins/smile.gif


PairOfElevens - you trying to be Paul Magriel or something (with the x22)?
[ QUOTE ]
22-bet, but fold to a 23-bet.

Definitely.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Alexthegreat]

I would eliminate AA and QQ from his range, just like you did. What does he think of you? do you have any ideas? There must be some kind of dynamic between you guys. Does he think he can push you around? It's hard to give you an exact number, but I probably would put in more than 6 bets.

[Roadstar]

There is not much dynamics between us, except for a hand previously where he had something like 53s and beat my set with a flush. I think he would have known that I'm generally a tight and aggressive player - perhaps his previous suckout on me gave him more confidence - I dunno. Another problem is my continued betting on the flop and turn did not help define my hand for him in a sense that I could just have a pair of aces.

For the C/R and his first reraise I simply thought he could a bare jack for trips. Then I thought it could be J6 or QJ but by the time it got to 6 I seriously considered it could be QQ and stopped.

Also, villain had about $30 left - should I have just reraised until he went out of chips then? (ignoring results if you can)


Thanks


[ QUOTE ]
I would eliminate AA and QQ from his range, just like you did. What does he think of you? do you have any ideas? There must be some kind of dynamic between you guys. Does he think he can push you around? It's hard to give you an exact number, but I probably would put in more than 6 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

[_TKO_]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, villain had about $30 left - should I have just reraised until he went out of chips then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Try not to let things like this factor into your decisions too often. OTOH, if you have good reason to believe that your opponent is desperate because of it, then you might be able to widen your opponents range. Going 6 bets on this river is still a pretty thin range. That's still about 4 bets, which is definately a sizable amount.

[TheHammer24]

I wouldn't eliminate AA or QQ in a 4-8 live game. I've seen much stranger things here. BUT:

AA - 1 combo QQ 3-Combos AJ-2 Combos QJ-6 Combos KT-16 combos J6-3 Combos

I think you are good an overwhelming majority of the time and I would raise one more time if he 6-bets.

[ReptileHouse]

I just can't see villain having AA or QQ here. Your read says he raises light, not slowplays monsters.

Given his reaction, I think it's highly likely that the J on the end helped him and he believes he just sucked out on you. That, combined with your pre-flop raise, implies he's reading you for AK or AQ. The only concern is that he's apparently not very worried about you having AA, QQ or AJ.

I'd like to say that I'd keep raising until he ran out of money (or I did), but in the actual moment, I don't know that I wouldn't wuss out around 5 or 6 bets. I think you'll be shown a smaller boat here far more often than you're shown AA or QQ. I'd most often expect to see QJs.

[W. Deranged]

I'm taking this pretty damn deep. Villain has QQ or AA here so rarely. I'm at least 7-betting. If he 8 bets, I puke and reevaluate.

[fluff]

This isn't just live 4/8, this is River Rock 4/8. They are a league of their own.

Anyway, as been pointed out, AA and QQ are unlikely because a) no PFR, and b) no raise on the turn either. Given that, he probably has QJ here a big percentage of the time. A smaller boat or even broadway are also somewhat more likely than AA/QQ.

Given that, I would definitely put at least 2 or 3 more raises in.

[pikkupossu]

if he says 'one more' i reraise to 5 bets, and wave over the waitress to order a drink. if he goes 6 bets, i'll double my drink order and 7 bet. if he 8 bets. i'll also get a shot of tequila and call.

the real winner in my scenario is the waitress.

[Havok]

I think this is read dependent. You definetly feel like this guy is a donk, chasing flush draws with weak suited cards, and QQ and AA are just too unlikely. Against a solid player I would pause too, but against this guy. I'm reraising him till I take the rest of his chips. 3rd nuts is plenty against a donk.

[Roadstar]

You play at River Rock? Yes I agree its like .5/1 online most of the time which makes for a hell lot of variance. Do you ever play any higher than 4/8 there? They don't really have a mid limit game except the occasional 30/60 (which is a little too high for me)

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't just live 4/8, this is River Rock 4/8. They are a league of their own.

Anyway, as been pointed out, AA and QQ are unlikely because a) no PFR, and b) no raise on the turn either. Given that, he probably has QJ here a big percentage of the time. A smaller boat or even broadway are also somewhat more likely than AA/QQ.

Given that, I would definitely put at least 2 or 3 more raises in.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Alexthegreat]

The fact that he only had 30 bucks left makes AA or QQ a virtual impossibility in my opinion. I would have kept raising until he stopped or went all in.

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain shows J 6 , MHIG

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty typical of my limited experience. A lot of players aren't aware of what higher hands the board could make, or they think that such hands are very unlikely despite repeated reraises of their bets. In addition, if they get trips they are completely blinded by hands that might beat them.

As an example, I played a similar hand recently. I capped the preflop betting with KQs in late position with 7 players calling and a loose raiser reraising. I had been at the table for awhile, and I had lost on all my good hands to things like 64o, so I was trying to decide what the best way to play was:

1) get as many bets in preflop as I could with good hands

or

2) limp in with my good hands and then bet when I caught a piece of the flop.

I speculated that getting in as many bets preflop was the way to go since I would be able to get more money in the pot when I was ahead with preflop raises, hence the reason I capped the betting. However, I was worried that by creating such a big pot no one could make a mistake by calling on later streets because of the huge pot odds, so I was unsure if what I was doing was correct. I play other forms of poker where that thorny problem has to be considered. (Today, I read the section in SSHE that says that when you have a good edge preflop, you should get as much money in preflop as you can rather than wait.)

The flop was K, Q, 9 with two diamonds giving me top two pair. Me and the loose raiser capped the betting after the flop with 4 other callers.

The turn was a 6(non diamond). I started the betting and it was called around.

The river was a Q(non diamond) giving me Queens full of Kings. I started the betting again and the loose raiser tried to raise, but he made a string bet and someone not in the hand jumped all over him telling him his string raise was illegal and he could only call. The other players folded. I probably would have gone to 22 bets before reevaluating as well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

He turned over K3o. He had a pair of Kings to my Queens full of Kings.

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm taking this pretty damn deep. Villain has QQ or AA here so rarely. I'm at least 7-betting. If he 8 bets, I puke and reevaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

[TRD23]

I dont even think its up for debate, with only $30 left in his stack I am raising until I cant raise no more.

By your admission he is a donkey so the chances of him having a weaker hand are definately greater then 50% so its going to be profitable to raise and raise some more.

Is there something I am missing that doesnt make this a no-brainer?

[Roadstar]

Donkeys are also usually passive post flop, for a donkey to go 6 bets he can either really have the nuts or misread his hand. Every incremental reraise makes it slightly more likely its a stronger hand.

Sure its greater than 50% he has a weaker hand at the first check raise, but each reraise your reassessment drives that % lower and lower.

I think this is a situation that comes up more often than I realize in live games with the unlimited heads up reraise rule.

And IMO I don't think its a no-brainer, especially when you're putting $48 on the line on the river (for me at least, relative to the stakes)

[ QUOTE ]
I dont even think its up for debate, with only $30 left in his stack I am raising until I cant raise no more.

By your admission he is a donkey so the chances of him having a weaker hand are definately greater then 50% so its going to be profitable to raise and raise some more.

Is there something I am missing that doesnt make this a no-brainer?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Alexthegreat]

[ QUOTE ]
Donkeys are also usually passive post flop, for a donkey to go 6 bets he can either really have the nuts or misread his hand. Every incremental reraise makes it slightly more likely its a stronger hand.

Sure its greater than 50% he has a weaker hand at the first check raise, but each reraise your reassessment drives that % lower and lower.

I think this is a situation that comes up more often than I realize in live games with the unlimited heads up reraise rule.

And IMO I don't think its a no-brainer, especially when you're putting $48 on the line on the river (for me at least, relative to the stakes)



[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, If you are worried about getting 6 bets in with the 3rd nuts against a player that you have no respect for then maybe the stakes are too high for you...

I don't mean this in a disrespectful way because I rarely play higher than 4/8 at RiverRock myself, but I would've loved to get him all-in on the river.