Will Neteller Pay?

[Mendacious]

I noticed the last thread on this appears to be locked, but I don't see why that is so. I am not trying to muck-rake, I have $3k in neteller that I want to see as badly as the next guy, but I am resigned to the fact that there is a good chance that this will never happen.

My reasoning:

I am assuming that Neteller is now being guided by counsel as to what to do to avoid any further legal exposure. If I were legal counsel to Neteller (and I am an attorney) I would conclude that there is a possibility that by transfering money (over the amount originally funded) to US customers that this may be construed as conspiracy to violate the wire act. If I were Neteller's counsel (and I am assuming based on their conduct at this point that Neteller is trying to comply with the US laws going forward) I would be soliciting the opinion of the DOJ on what to do with the money in US accounts, and trying to leverage this as a way to avoid any further prosecution.

I think there is a realistic possibility that the DOJ will determine who gets paid back what, and I would not be surprised if they seized the money in US accounts in excess of what was deposited by the account holders from banks/credit cards.

In some respect I hope this happens as it might spawn some interesting legal challenges.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
I have $3k in neteller that I want to see as badly as the next guy

[/ QUOTE ]

I took out 3k this weekend via neteller card. If you email them and call I would think you might get it by Mon. if you are lucky. I mean if you don't already have a neteller card.

[Mendacious]

I have requested a card. The fact that the Cards are apparently still working is one of the only reassuring things I have seen, but it is not definitive to me.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have $3k in neteller that I want to see as badly as the next guy

[/ QUOTE ]

I took out 3k this weekend via neteller card. If you email them and call I would think you might get it by Mon. if you are lucky. I mean if you don't already have a neteller card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt one could get a card that fast. I applied four days ago and still haven't received a decision regarding my application (note -- I don't see why I should have to apply anyway, just send me the damn card).

[LetsGambool]

Since they will still send you a Neteller Card and you can withdraw to your hearts content at $1K a day, the evidence pretty strongly points to the fact that Neteller will be giving you back your money. The issue appears to be finding a way to do so with the sudden disappearance of ACH processors. Frustrating, but I dont think your money at Neteller is in danger.

[LTRAiiN]

neteller card fees?

do they charge a fee for use of the card? can you take it washington mutual (i dont think they charge for a non-wamu atm card) and withdraw for free?

3k in all 20's would suck too...but there is worse problems to have.

[joeker]

[ QUOTE ]
Since they will still send you a Neteller Card and you can withdraw to your hearts content at $1K a day, the evidence pretty strongly points to the fact that Neteller will be giving you back your money. The issue appears to be finding a way to do so with the sudden disappearance of ACH processors. Frustrating, but I dont think your money at Neteller is in danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed....all this talk that neteller will screw their US customer is ridiculous, and shows the tunnel vision Americans have completely ignoring the fact that Neteller has millions of Canadaian and European players.

Screwing Americans out of their money would kill their reputation and their business.

[xRocko]

I'm become more concerned about Neteller paying each day, and not for the "counsel" reason.

I'm waiting for $ that has been sitting in Neteller and was never sent to any gambling site, I just want it back via the EFT I have set up. They can take money from me via EFT in a flash. Their excuse's sound hollow to me.

It wouldn't suprise me at all if one of these days they declare some sort of insolvency, claiming something like "due to overwhelming withdrawal requests beyond our availible cash levels", etc.

Just a point. Money outfits like AMEX, or a normal bank handle millions of EFTs per day, why is Neteller overwhelmed?

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
Screwing Americans out of their money would kill their reputation and their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't think Neteller has ANY intention of screwing its American customers and I fully agree that this would be terrible for their viability in the rest of the world. What I am positing is that Neteller's decision is probably in the hands of their attorneys, and I expect they will give LEGAL (as opposed to business) advice after consulting/negotiating with the DOJ.

What the DOJ says is anyone's guess.
But based on what Neteller has done thus far, I do not think they will willfully go against the DOJ's position on this. So while I agree that the initial 2 week delay was caused by ACH processing, I think the new 6-8 week delay referenced in another post is another matter entirely, and not unexpected.

[BankTheRake]

Hate to bust anyone's "card bubble" here.....

Had a friend that yesterday tried to use his Neteller card, and it came up "Contact your provider"

Anyone else have a similar issue, or a successful attempt? IN THE LAST 24 HOURS!

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a point. Money outfits like AMEX, or a normal bank handle millions of EFTs per day, why is Neteller overwhelmed?



[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I am misreading the other threads on this, it appears (and forgive my terminology) that the clearinghouse(s) that process Netellers EFT's will no longer do so. Thus, it doesn't seem to me that ANYONE is likely to receive their money from Neteller by EFT. Perhaps by ATM but more likely by check. Part of what concerns me is the fact that Neteller has not changed the status of EFT's from "pending" to "canceled" so that people can request their money by other methods.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Screwing Americans out of their money would kill their reputation and their business.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I don't think Neteller has ANY intention of screwing its American customers and I fully agree that this would be terrible for their viability in the rest of the world. What I am positing is that Neteller's decision is probably in the hands of their attorneys, and I expect they will give LEGAL (as opposed to business) advice after consulting/negotiating with the DOJ.

What the DOJ says is anyone's guess.
But based on what Neteller has done thus far, I do not think they will willfully go against the DOJ's position on this. So while I agree that the initial 2 week delay was caused by ACH processing, I think the new 6-8 week delay referenced in another post is another matter entirely, and not unexpected.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I were an attorney and advising neteller, I don't think I would advise them to steal millions of dollars. They're in the freaking UK, this isn't Riyadh. They can get away with facilitating gambling, but if the expropriate millions of dollars from their clients, do you really think any reputable government would do anything but arrest them and freeze their accounts?

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were an attorney and advising neteller, I don't think I would advise them to steal millions of dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally non-responsive. I am suggesting that the DOJ may advise neteller what to do, and MAY seize a portion of the money.

In no way am I suggesting that Neteller would not pay absent some determinition by the DOJ as to what they can lawfully do.

[bekman]

I believe the problem is that in their system, they allowed 3rd parties to move funds. The Neteller card is however owned by their company (actually, they acquired the company that had the technology in Asia). The 3rd party processors probably severed ties with NT as soon as the crap hit the fan. Now, no reputable group will do business with them, right or not.

[sublime]

neteller IS PAYING!

they are just doing it in small inconvient amounts.

[joeker]

I dont see how the DOJ can seize Neteller's money. THe money is not in a US financial institution

If the US could seize funds in foreign banks they would've shut down Iran years ago.

[AssFrister]

I have a hard time thinking NT will comply with DOJ if DOJ wants clients' money siezed. If it turns out DOJ wants this then NT really is in between a rock and a hard place. How can they expect us non-US customers to feel safe? Doesn't matter if it is NT's fault or DOJ's fault; it happened. Stuff can happen in other countries too.

But I just can't see money being withheld. It will bring the wrong kind of publicity all round except for the players. I don't think even DOJ would want that kind of headache. They are getting what they want anyway. No need for a short term smash and grab.

[xadrez]

[ QUOTE ]
Had a friend that yesterday tried to use his Neteller card, and it came up "Contact your provider"

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same message a couple days ago. My card was inactive for some reason, I called Neteller, they reactivated it, I went back to the ATM and withrew money. I would suggest to your friend that he call them.

[ekdikeo]

I'd say it's probably just a matter of the fact that the system wasn't designed to handle zillions of failed transactions all at once.

Let me compare it to something online. Say, you have a simple forum system online, that has a couple of message boards on it. You want to move a bunch of posts from one board to another, because someone posted a bunch of off topic junk. But, you never installed a "move message" function, because everything was so small, you figured it'd be cake to handle it on a case-by-case basis, which was true, until you took a week off, and someone posted 500 messages in the wrong place.

Now, you either need to implement software to handle the task for you, or you need to go and edit the database manually to change 500 records.

[ericicecream]

[ QUOTE ]
...I would be soliciting the opinion of the DOJ on what to do with the money in US accounts, and trying to leverage this as a way to avoid any further prosecution.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the OP on this. I think NT would likely contact the DOJ for their advice.

If DOJ advises them to return all money to the u.s. customers, this can be a precident that they can use in their defense, no? DOJ says it's okay SOMETIMES to transfer money to customers that came from gambling sites.

If DOJ says not to return money, there can be some pressure from NT customers, NT shareholders etc. NT can basically go to British gov't and say "Hey, we got all this money we want to return to our u.s. customers but the u.s. says we can't" and perhaps the British gov't gets involved.

Except for the excessively long wait to actually get the funds, this could turn out to be a good thing.

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were an attorney and advising neteller, I don't think I would advise them to steal millions of dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally non-responsive. I am suggesting that the DOJ may advise neteller what to do, and MAY seize a portion of the money.

In no way am I suggesting that Neteller would not pay absent some determinition by the DOJ as to what they can lawfully do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think the DOJ is going to tell Neteller to keep the money? Come on. "Neteller, you're very bad. In fact, you're so bad that we want you to keep these millions of dollars you owe our citizens. Just put it in your bank account and keep it. That will teach you to mess with the US!"

Also, I think people are completely misunderstanding the incentives of the DOJ. However you may feel about the issue, the attorneys at DOJ are trying to enforce the law and protect citizens, which would not be achieved by encouraging neteller not to return deposits.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I were an attorney and advising neteller, I don't think I would advise them to steal millions of dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally non-responsive. I am suggesting that the DOJ may advise neteller what to do, and MAY seize a portion of the money.

In no way am I suggesting that Neteller would not pay absent some determinition by the DOJ as to what they can lawfully do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think the DOJ is going to tell Neteller to keep the money? Come on. "Neteller, you're very bad. In fact, you're so bad that we want you to keep these millions of dollars you owe our citizens. Just put it in your bank account and keep it. That will teach you to mess with the US!"

Also, I think people are completely misunderstanding the incentives of the DOJ. However you may feel about the issue, the attorneys at DOJ are trying to enforce the law and protect citizens, which would not be achieved by encouraging neteller not to return deposits.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, assuming the DOJ is contacted, and they have filed charges against the founders of Neteller saying that they conspired to violate the Wire Act, how can they take the position that it is ok for Neteller to continue to violate the law by completing the very transactions which their founders are being charged with? It seems to me the DOJ would HAVE to take the position that transfering any profit back to US customers violates the law. And I see not reason whatsoever why the DOJ would not demand that Neteller turn this money over to the Feds. It appears as though they are going to pursue Dikshit, Party and 888 for illegal profits. Why not make Neteller buy its freedom by turning over this cash to the Feds. Moreover, I could easily see as part of this process the Feds getting Neteller to turn over records of + money accounts and turning this over to the IRS.

Do you think Neteller will resist this if it buys them out of any potential liability and they can continue to operate abroad.

[viper930]

I really dont think the federal government stealing our money from Neteller is a realistic issue here. They are after the operators of online gambling. Theyre not in it to rob American citizens of their moneys. Who are you to be making statements like this?

[LetsGambool]

They didnt freeze the funds though. Theyre still available through the Neteller card. Wouldnt the more likely settlement be an agreement to cease and desist with all money returned to its rightful owners and IRS access to records if/when requested? There's not zero risk involved, and figuring out how to get the money back seems to be a bit of a challenge, but all the evidence so far indicates you will be getting your money back. If you're that worried, get a Neteller card and you can get back 98% of your money within the next couple of weeks. Just took out $800 ten minutes ago no sweat because I dont want to wait 6-8 weeks for the money.

[bobman0330]

Neteller doesn't have physical dollars that belong to you. Even if they have to pay a civil fine, they still owe you money under (I assume, couldn't find neteller t&c) the laws of the UK. It's a valid, legally enforceable debt, and unless they go bankrupt, the money is there. Furthermore, the DOJ doesn't have to do anything, especially if they settle.

[poorolrich]

Quote "They are after the operators of online gambling". If so, why did they arrest the exec's of Netteller or did I miss the part where Netteller were 'operators of online gambling'. I agree that I do not think Netteller/DOJ is going to keep any monies but, you never know.

[Jeffage]

Mendacious,

I might be wrong about this, but I believe when Carruthers was arrested and Bet on Sports stopped doing business with Americans, the government said it wanted the company to return the money to American clients. Now, I don't know how that worked out, but I'm pretty sure that was their public standing on the issue.

Jeff

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
Mendacious,

I might be wrong about this, but I believe when Carruthers was arrested and Bet on Sports stopped doing business with Americans, the government said it wanted the company to return the money to American clients. Now, I don't know how that worked out, but I'm pretty sure that was their public standing on the issue.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. It would seem to me-- as posted by someone else above-- that to take the position that NETELLER should pay profit cashouts to Americans would severely cripple the DOJ's case. It would be akin to saying we want Neteller to finish the crime we are accusing your founders of committing.

I think this is a fundamental difference between charging the money services with conspiracy vs charging the gambling sites with the crime itself. The DOJ may have painted itself into a corner.

[phish]

The DoJ can seize the profits from illegal activities (if they can get ahold of it). However, playing poker itself was never illegal. And players' funds in Neteller do not even belong to Neteller.

Whatever crimes Neteller committed in the US's eyes(financial transactions to gambling sites) have been committed and is done with. Transferring money back to banks or players is not against any law. In fact, failure to return money to players would constitute blatant theft that would be prosecuted under UK law.

I doubt that Neteller is going to ask the DoJ what it should do. Even if asked, it makes no sense that the DoJ would tell Neteller to not return money legally owed to others. And even if that were to happen (some moronic junior lawyer at the Dept speaking on his own), Neteller would have a very tough time following such 'advice' which would so clearly violate UK law, and which would essentially doom their business with the rest of the world.

Don't get me wrong. I do have concerns: primary of which is that the companies that process those ATM withdrawal will no longer do so, and it becomes much more difficult to get money out. Plus there is a chance that Neteller itself can go under.

But the notion that the DoJ would ever tell Neteller to keep this money is just silly. And likewise for seizing the deposits of a foreign company (remember, they wouldn't even be seizing assets of the firm, but the third party funds held at that firm), which would violate all sorts of UK laws.

[Cap_Of_Water]

i dont know if others have posted this or not, but i called them to ask WTF about my EFT and they said it will take 4-6 weeks instead of 1-2 DAYS because of the high volume of withdrawls...

[Nuschler]

I used LiveChat on Neteller's site, they canceled my EFT (which had been pending since 1/16/07), instantly is was back in my Neteller account, transferred it to Neteller Card, I just got cash from ATM with it an hour ago...no problems.

[Mendacious]

[ QUOTE ]
The DoJ can seize the profits from illegal activities (if they can get ahold of it). However, playing poker itself was never illegal. And players' funds in Neteller do not even belong to Neteller.

Whatever crimes Neteller committed in the US's eyes(financial transactions to gambling sites) have been committed and is done with. Transferring money back to banks or players is not against any law. In fact, failure to return money to players would constitute blatant theft that would be prosecuted under UK law.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that his is ONE rational way of looking at it, but I do not think it is the only way to see it, especially in light of the fact that we are dealing with a conspiracy charge and not a direct violation of gambling provisions. I think that muddies the waters significantly as to when the crime begins and ends. Moreover, I am reasonably certain that Neteller already was in a conflict between laws and regulations between the US and UK in terms of whether it had a legal obligation to deposit the funds in the gambling sites once requested by its customers.

[phish]

Whatever the crime committed by one party does not entitle that party (or even the US government) to seize the assets of a third party.

Furthermore, any such action will clearly violates UK law, which is primary in determining Neteller's actions. That is why the US can only act when their targets step on US soil. In cases where such conflicts do not exist, the US would be indicting people and pressing for extradiction already.

[stinkpaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Mendacious,

I might be wrong about this, but I believe when Carruthers was arrested and Bet on Sports stopped doing business with Americans, the government said it wanted the company to return the money to American clients. Now, I don't know how that worked out, but I'm pretty sure that was their public standing on the issue.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still waiting for my $$ from them....

[emund]

i received my card today and withdrew 1000 still have more to go but atleast its a start.spoke with neteller this morning and was told all new cards are on hold ,so i guess i finally got lucky once. also a suggestion find someone you trust if they have a card do a transfer to their account and let them withdraw for you ,this still works.

[Central Limit]

I withdrew all the money on my Neteller card at an ATM no problem. Then I tried to move more money onto my card from my Neteller account. That request was denied. So, now I am worried. Other people are not having this problem?

[BigBiceps]

Can't use the card anymore according to their FAQ.

I applied too late and never got the card. They are not issuing it anymore.

Don't know how I am ever going to get my money unless they do something different.

[dafulv]

i spoke to customer service today about how long it will take to get my checks...they said there is no time table because they have no idea

[LegallyBlind]

[ QUOTE ]


Can I still use my NETELLER account?


Yes. All US members and non-US members will continue to be able to use their NETELLER e-wallet account for safe online transfers to and from non-gambling merchants and secure peer-to-peer transfers with friends and family around the world.



[/ QUOTE ]

maybe i am being naive, but i assumed this meant that i could use the money in my neteller account to transfer to non-gambling merchants. so as a worse case scenario, if i cant get my money out of NT, i can spend it online on someting legit, or send it to another e-wallet or site that will allow me to deposit the money into my bank.

am i missing something here?

[BigBiceps]

Yes, there are hardly any non-gambling merchants.

[emund]

i guess thats it i kust spoke to vip and i told her about the card not working anymore she was surprised to hear that ,she put me on hold checked for herself than agreed that as of today they stopped the transfer to cards and withdrawls. always a day late..............

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
I withdrew all the money on my Neteller card at an ATM no problem. Then I tried to move more money onto my card from my Neteller account. That request was denied. So, now I am worried. Other people are not having this problem?

[/ QUOTE ]
The window for transferring to the ATM card is open again but will be closed again tomorrow, Saturday, January 27. Once the money is in the Neteller ATM account, there is no deadline to withdraw it. This is what I was just told a few minutes ago by a Neteller CSR, while I simultaneously and successfully made a transfer from Neteller to the Neteller ATM Card account.

[Jeff W]

I'm really starting to think I won't be getting my money and if I do get it, who the [censored] knows how long it will take.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really starting to think I won't be getting my money and if I do get it, who the [censored] knows how long it will take.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jeffage]

Is Conjelco still taking Neteller to buy books? Might as well blow a few hundred of it.

Jeff

[pokerpunchout]

I just got off the phone with Neteller CSR and it was confirmed that the Neteller card is no longer working. He could not tell me when it would be an option again. He did state that that it could be due to " a backlog" of withdrawls that is overloading their system ... but could not say for sure this is what is happening.

Has anyone heard any other info on this?

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Conjelco still taking Neteller to buy books?

[/ QUOTE ]

How are THEY going to get the money out?

[Jeffage]

Maybe merchants can still get their cash and gamblers can't? I dunno, would like to be able to use what I have in Neteller for something if I can't get it out!

Jeff

[godofgamblers]

I just got my debit card yesterday and loaded it with 1k, but can't activate it today. They said you can't load anymore but you should be able to withdraw whatever you have....contact tomorrow to activate. Not that I believe them or anything, but I sure hope it's true.

[Central Limit]

Do they ACTUALLY HAVE our money!? Are they like a brick mortar bank in that they only need to keep a small percentage of money liquid? Do they have dollars to back every dollar deposited?

This nonsense about a "backlog" is bullsh*t. How can it take four to six weeks to transfer money?

This whole thing pisses me off!

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Do they ACTUALLY HAVE our money!? Are they like a brick mortar bank in that they only need to keep a small percentage of money liquid? Do they have dollars to back every dollar deposited?

This nonsense about a "backlog" is bullsh*t. How can it take four to six weeks to transfer money?

This whole thing pisses me off!

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller has your money... you will see your money again...

If you take a look at the discussion regarding the middlemen in a Neteller -> Bank transaction, you will better understand the situation.

[bcubed72]

[ QUOTE ]
Except for the excessively long wait to actually get the funds, this could turn out to be a good thing.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it.

One of the major stumbling blocks for getting internet gambling going in the first place was, "how can I trust them?" A few bad apples absconded with money and gave the industry a setback. Eventually people (such as myself) decided "they're publicly traded companies worth billions...it wouldn't be in their best intrest to be dishonest." That was the operative unitl UGIEA and, notably the NETELLER fiasco.

Even if this is resolved sucessfully, people will elect to remember how people were left wondering if or when they would be paid...it would be rational for the casual player to second-guess the wisdom of internet gaming. This is, as far as I'm concerned, even bigger news than the passage of the UGIEA in the first place.

A coule points:
1. It seems a non-US citizen could facilitate obtaining one's cash, out of the goodness of his heart (and 2%, perhaps). Not only would such a person be a hero to 2+2ers, he also could clear a quick six figures.

2. There must be something more going on than just two guys--who don't even work for them anymore--got arrested. After all, the NETELLER bigwigs would be accountable for past transactions up to the statute of limitations; this wouldn't change that. Anyone know the behind-the-scenes issues that caused this to happen?

[sandycove]

It is for certain illegal for an American citizen, resident abroad, to process transfers as you suggest and there are federal reporting requirements that would expose this behaviour. Failure to report is, as always, risky business. So, at a minimum, the reward should be substantial.

Further, these transactions would be noted by the institution and the government involved, would almost surely be illegal there as well, and again, at a minimum, would raise red flags, attract unfavourable attention, and even turn the facilitator into an unwelcome guest in his host country – putting his entire investment of time and money there in jeopardy.

Hardly worth it for any percentage. And certainly not for the humble figures mentioned here.

(There will be lawyers, “jailhouse” and otherwise, who will quibble with this view. I invite them, rather than add to the noise, to go into the business themselves and put their professional credentials on the line…)

The community here continues to be irrationally myopic. The United States government has made its position transparently clear for many months. Opponents to this official position have no viable political constituency or any positive argument that advances the general public good, the service providers in question contribute utterly nothing in the national interest and other more traditional U.S. institutions with access (casinos, the NFL, religious interests, parents, pandering politicians) have consistently opposed extra-national online gambling operations with vigour and financial muscle .

The government always had the strongest hand, its cards were always exposed and, if you continued to play, it was inevitable you were going to lose some chips…

(I stipulate that this view does nothing to advance your practical concerns today – but perspective has been thin on the ground around here recently.)

The near-term solution is for major sites, in some manner, to become their own bankers. That’s seldom a good idea, particularly given the international nature of this enterprise and the U.S. position. But the market makes it a tempting gamble. Long term, I’d think the casinos would have to get on board, but competing state and federal jurisdictions might make such an arrangement impractical on a national basis, not to mention less profitable, since wagering would certainly be prohibited and strictly in-state poker would lead one to steal one's own customers.

[Karak567]

I just tried to withdraw to my debit card (as I have been doing every day for the past week or so) and got this:

"P1001 Processor has declined your transaction"

I don't have time to call right now, but I will later. Before I do, does anyone know what this is?

[sooooooo]

Sandycove is one of the few people on here with a clue. I posted within a week of the regulation passing as to what would REALLY happen, and my comments were removed by moderators. Everyone on here is just spreading best case scenarios as if they are the most likely scenario. In the end, this has damaged everyone. Do you really think that this board is not being monitored?

Every idea people bring up on here is just going to give the politicians more fuel for their fire. It just makes everyone look like flagrant abusers of the law who will do anything to bypass the government. This is not what you want to be projecting.

Furthermore, the mere fact you ignore what is going on here is preposterous. Poker sites have created an enormous wealth transfer from Americans to a few rich foreigners, with absolutely no social benefit. And I am saying this as a professed libertarian. This is not a libertarian country though, and blaming the Republicans for this is stupid. No one in Washington likes the idea of online poker, and very few Americans like the idea of internet gambling, especially when it is run by overseas firms outside of US jurisdiction. The only people in Washington who are against this regulation are against it because certain banking institutions whom they receive funding from do not want the expense of compliance. There may be a few outlier politicians who don't think this is in the scope of their power, and are therefore against the bill, but I guarantee you they do not like the idea of Americans giving away money to Anurag Dikshit.

In addition, citing the fact that poker is a game of school is not going to help your cause. For the vast majority of players, it is not a game of skill. People play poker because they like to gamble. A small minority of people play poker because they enjoy the strategy involved, and that makes up most of the people on 2+2. Continuing to purport that 2+2 is a sample of the general population or the poker playing population is a fallacy.

Personally, I am against government regulation of our decisions in life, but there has to be some regulation when you are allowed to gamble electronically, with electronic money, which you may or may not even have. For example, I know of numerous individuals who were able to wire money from there bank account that they didn't even have to play poker online. When something like this is possible, the government unfortunately must be involved.

Finally, if the government decides that it is illegal to operate an online casino in the United States, then I completely agree that they should do everything in their power to prevent overseas companies from targeting our citizens. These companies had a lot of balls to advertise in our country, and now they are paying the price. If guarantee you if they never advertised in the US and never sponsored players to wear their shirts on TV you would still be able to play online poker today. But they were greedy, and wanted to make a quick buck at your expense. Politicians do not like flagrant abuses of our laws, and thus Frist showed them the consequences of rubbing it in our face that they couldn't stop them.

[MannyIsGod]

[ QUOTE ]
Sandycove is one of the few people on here with a clue. I posted within a week of the regulation passing as to what would REALLY happen, and my comments were removed by moderators. Everyone on here is just spreading best case scenarios as if they are the most likely scenario. In the end, this has damaged everyone. Do you really think that this board is not being monitored?

Every idea people bring up on here is just going to give the politicians more fuel for their fire. It just makes everyone look like flagrant abusers of the law who will do anything to bypass the government. This is not what you want to be projecting.

Furthermore, the mere fact you ignore what is going on here is preposterous. Poker sites have created an enormous wealth transfer from Americans to a few rich foreigners, with absolutely no social benefit. And I am saying this as a professed libertarian. This is not a libertarian country though, and blaming the Republicans for this is stupid. No one in Washington likes the idea of online poker, and very few Americans like the idea of internet gambling, especially when it is run by overseas firms outside of US jurisdiction. The only people in Washington who are against this regulation are against it because certain banking institutions whom they receive funding from do not want the expense of compliance. There may be a few outlier politicians who don't think this is in the scope of their power, and are therefore against the bill, but I guarantee you they do not like the idea of Americans giving away money to Anurag Dikshit.

In addition, citing the fact that poker is a game of school is not going to help your cause. For the vast majority of players, it is not a game of skill. People play poker because they like to gamble. A small minority of people play poker because they enjoy the strategy involved, and that makes up most of the people on 2+2. Continuing to purport that 2+2 is a sample of the general population or the poker playing population is a fallacy.

Personally, I am against government regulation of our decisions in life, but there has to be some regulation when you are allowed to gamble electronically, with electronic money, which you may or may not even have. For example, I know of numerous individuals who were able to wire money from there bank account that they didn't even have to play poker online. When something like this is possible, the government unfortunately must be involved.

Finally, if the government decides that it is illegal to operate an online casino in the United States, then I completely agree that they should do everything in their power to prevent overseas companies from targeting our citizens. These companies had a lot of balls to advertise in our country, and now they are paying the price. If guarantee you if they never advertised in the US and never sponsored players to wear their shirts on TV you would still be able to play online poker today. But they were greedy, and wanted to make a quick buck at your expense. Politicians do not like flagrant abuses of our laws, and thus Frist showed them the consequences of rubbing it in our face that they couldn't stop them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really sure how you can profess to be a libertarian and reconcile some of your statements in that post; especially what you said in your final 2 paragraphs. I don't think anyone should ever roll over and submit to any laws they feel unjust, and I feel this law to be incredibly unjust, unnecessary, and unenforceable. Ideally, of course.

My concerns as a libertarian do not involve whether or not the money I spend stays within my country, but rather on whether or not my country stops me from spending my money as I see fit. If I want to spend all of my money on cheap trinkets from Taiwan and buy everything made in Mexico and nothing made in the US, who the hell are they, you, or anyone else to tell me thats not allowable?

Anyhow, that aside, the main problem with both your post and Sandycove's post is the central idea in both. It seems that both of the posts hang on the idea that the government's attempt at prohibition will be successful. I laugh at that. Months after UIGEA passed I haven't gone more than a day without playing poker and I really don't see that changing anytime in the near future. Yes, Neteller is gone. Yes, there are fewer sites. Yes, the landscape is different. But is it necessarily any harder right now to play poker online than it was before the law passed? Maybe marginally so, but no more than that. What we have seen, is the industry's willingness and ability to adapt rather quickly to each of these challenges.

However, in the end its all speculation. But one thing is certain and that is that I have seen no signs of the industry rolling over and admitting defeat in any way. In fact, when companies like Full Tilt publicly declare their refusal to leave the market in the face of such adversity, I take that as a clear sign they are more than willing to do what it takes to reach the market.

What I do find rather annoying is how much misinformation does fly around this 2P2 in general. Threads are littered with posts that contain horribly incorrect information (IE Neteller is closing US accounts when they are not, etc etc) when the most that can be offered is speculation. There are very few banking experts here, there are very few legal experts here, and there are very few international finance experts here. I wish people would take that into consideration before making their opinions sound like fact.

[Chinaski]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, I know of numerous individuals who were able to wire money from there bank account that they didn't even have to play poker online. When something like this is possible, the government unfortunately must be involved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say the government should get involved if for example minorities were not allowed to make bank transfers online or if the poker sites were running large children prostitution Internet porn rings or smuggling anthrax into the country.

But they don't have to get involved because a couple of your buddies are playing poker by using their Dad's or a friend's bank account.

The larger, reputable sites do a better job of regulating themselves than the government ever could.

[emund]

my gold card no longer works even with a balance ,i cant use it at a atm

[sooooooo]

MannyisGod: The problem with your argument is it only works if casinos are legal everywhere in the United States. Politicians risk running a slippery slope if they continue to allow offshore gambling sites to target our citizens, yet imprison anyone who runs a casino in the United States. Was everyone here protesting when the WSEX owner was arrested years ago because he was running the site from the US in some ways? Nope. No one really cared, even though it was patently obvious that online gambling would not last forever. IF people protested at that point, and tried to get online poker legalized, even if they failed, we would be on much greater footing in the current environment.

And if they legalize it in the United States, then why can't brick and mortar casinos be in every jurisdiction. *GASP* The odds of that happening are slim to none. Unfortunately, despite the fact that poker is predominately a game of skill to people on 2+2, the vast majority of poker players are gambling. It is impossible to argue that gambling causes negative externalities. The fact that I am libertarian is not a hypocrisy.

Libertarian concepts agree with taxing those who create negative externalities for others. And when these externalities are broad issues such as increased crime near casinos, it is not something that is easy to deal with. Just as you feel you have a right to gamble, other citizens feel they have a right to not live next to a casino.

Finally, I agree that there will always be a way to get around the bill. The point is the typical American will not go to those means. Those who do wish to go to those means will mostly people who earn a significant income from online poker.

WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO LIST AS THE SOURCE OF YOUR INCOME ON YOUR TAX RETURN?

[Billy Bibbit]

[ QUOTE ]

WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO LIST AS THE SOURCE OF YOUR INCOME ON YOUR TAX RETURN?

[/ QUOTE ]

I filed my tax return on Thursday and I wrote down "gambling winnings: $XX,XXX" under the "other income" section of the form, just like I did last year (except last year it was just $X,XXX because I sucked back then, haha). I'd estimate my chances of getting in trouble with the government because of this right around 0%.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm going to put my winnings down as gambling winnings. It isn't illegal for me to play poker. I'll get in trouble for all of that right around the time we land on the sun, never.

[sooooooo]

Nice felony.

[Jooka]

are you a full time pro and have no other income?

[sooooooo]

Everyone also seemed to compare PartyPoker banning US players as likely as landing on the sun. But it happened. And ithappened before the regulation even took full effect.

The ignorance of people on this board will be their downfall.

The IRS audit rate for people filing significant amounts of gambling income is significantly higher than the average individual. In addition, listing assets in a foreign bank account is an enormous red flag. How you plan on repeatedly cashing in/out without assets in a foreign bank account is beyond me. And when you get audited, how are you going to explain significant amounts of gambling income without any receipts from brick and mortar casinos.

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice felony.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice trolling. I know for a fact it isn't illegal to play online poker.

LOL at the thought of B&M receipts.

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone also seemed to compare PartyPoker banning US players as likely as landing on the sun. But it happened. And ithappened before the regulation even took full effect.

The ignorance of people on this board will be their downfall.

The IRS audit rate for people filing significant amounts of gambling income is significantly higher than the average individual. In addition, listing assets in a foreign bank account is an enormous red flag. How you plan on repeatedly cashing in/out without assets in a foreign bank account is beyond me. And when you get audited, how are you going to explain significant amounts of gambling income without any receipts from brick and mortar casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

sooooo... if you put occupation: Drug Dealer on your tax form, the IRS is not going to notify the DOJ... but if you were arrested for Drug Dealing and you did not report the income (and they subpenea'd your tax returns), you would be additionally charged with tax evasion.

Also, no one is getting arrested for PLAYING Poker...

[Valhalla]

Your lovely government has freezed your money at Neteller so they can use it against Neteller as an evidence in a court. It may take years to get your money back and it's not because of Neteller. Thank uncle Sam.

This reminds me of: "The best way to change a bad law is to enforce it strictly." -- Abraham Lincoln

[hizo]

[ QUOTE ]
Your lovely government has freezed your money at Neteller so they can use it against Neteller as an evidence in a court. It may take years to get your money back and it's not because of Neteller. Thank uncle Sam.

This reminds me of: "The best way to change a bad law is to enforce it strictly." -- Abraham Lincoln

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think it's awesome that you're quoting Lincoln and using the word "freezed" in the same post.

[Valhalla]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your lovely government has freezed your money at Neteller so they can use it against Neteller as an evidence in a court. It may take years to get your money back and it's not because of Neteller. Thank uncle Sam.

This reminds me of: "The best way to change a bad law is to enforce it strictly." -- Abraham Lincoln

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think it's awesome that you're quoting Lincoln and using the word "freezed" in the same post.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, 'frozen'. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Can't be awake all the time.

[fish2plus2]

why does it take 8 weeks to get a check in the mail? that is kinda making me scared.

[ktdude]

Just FYI:

It is NOT illegal to claim professional gambling as your profession. Lots of people do it -- I did it for six years. ALl those guys you see playing poker on TV do it.

I know dozens of people who claim it on their taxes, and over the last 8 years only one got audited. And passed no problem.

Just to help you sleep a little better.