Which pro would be best and worst for the DOJ to arrest [Archive]

adanthar

01-22-2007, 11:36 PM

okay, this retardation about "but what if they arrested a pro, would that help us??????" has gone on far enough.

Here is what would happen if a pro was indicted:

1)pro goes to jail
2)nothing else

oh yeah, the papers might run a page 17 story, and a few places might even run editorials for one day. that'd be about all. it's not major news, most people that see "poker pros being arrested for gambling" assume they did something wrong (and/or that online gambling is illegal), and a large chunk of the people that read it will agree with the arrest.

so basically, you're wishing for innocent people doing the same thing everyone else on this site does to go to jail for no good reason. stfu plz thx.

Zobags

01-22-2007, 11:49 PM

IMO

Worst = myself

Best = UNCON1OUS on Absolute, he has already won like $2600 off me this year /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

thetruest

01-22-2007, 11:50 PM

Sniper

01-22-2007, 11:57 PM

Adanthar is correct...

ekdikeo

01-23-2007, 12:01 AM

I think there's a large quantity of people out there who just don't care. And they don't even know they don't care. (they're like the dead people in Sixth Sense)

We see it that it's a giant deal to everyone, because we're in it. The people we know are in it.

JoseGonzlez

01-23-2007, 12:20 AM

Yeah in all honesty you might get one or two more stories than if it was some annoymous Brit being arrested.

The only people though that would be really outraged are the regular players and there are not as many as you think.

I know people who play poker casually and watch it occassionally on TV. The would do know who all these guys are but its not going to create any outrage with them and they know more about these people than the average american.

Jeff_B

01-23-2007, 12:50 AM

lol @ phil helmuth in jail

He would do really well I'm sure

thetruest

01-23-2007, 01:02 AM

I think you guys are so out of touch...

First of all, clearly, guys like Lederer and Ferguson are on grey legal ground because they not only own a portion of Full Tilt, but they have also aided in the programming of it's software. These guys are continually making profit from Full Tilt every single day. Profits of which the majority comes from American business. In contrast, the guys who were arrested from Neteller don't even run the company anymore.

Both Jesus and Lederer live in the US. Why haven't the feds gone after them in some way? Like someone else said in another thread it's not like they have to wait at some airport. They live here.

The sole reason is that such an event would just be too public, which is unlike everything they have been doing thus far. Pay attention to the majority of the events that have happened recently concerning all of this; it has all been done in quite possibly the most silent manner possible. I play poker regularly AND come here and I didn't even know about anything until days later. While you guys sit here and debate all night, every night, stars is still showing 100k peak players, and UB has 24k, which was more than the last peak i checked there. Nothing has really changed, and most of these people don't even really know what really has went down yet.

The feds and DOJ don't really want to start a commotion, they just want their money while they "get the job done". They are going to need a much more robust case to take against anyone at Full Tilt and any big poker name online in general, and they will get flak about it no matter what once it's on a celebrity stage and public opinion becomes an issue.

if you guys would stop feeling so timid about the situation all the time, maybe you all could actually get together, get organized, concoct something, and do something about what is going on. I see alot of this mood of futility all the time, or that "we're nothing and don't mean much to anyone" type of thinking in people who are supposed to be game theory experts in a $6 billion whatever industry that has garnered massive unprecedented success in TV and pop culture. It's getting annoying. It's not like the brainpower isn't in this community. But i guess this is America, so of course people will just sit back apathetically and lazily while their freedoms, no matter how trivial they are (like playing poker), will get run over by a semi.

JayA

01-23-2007, 01:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
okay, this retardation about "but what if they arrested a pro, would that help us??????" has gone on far enough.

Here is what would happen if a pro was indicted:

1)pro goes to jail
2)nothing else

oh yeah, the papers might run a page 17 story, and a few places might even run editorials for one day. that'd be about all. it's not major news, most people that see "poker pros being arrested for gambling" assume they did something wrong (and/or that online gambling is illegal), and a large chunk of the people that read it will agree with the arrest.

so basically, you're wishing for innocent people doing the same thing everyone else on this site does to go to jail for no good reason. stfu plz thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar is correct...

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the thread was made to just have fun, not actually try and figure out which pro would be the best to have arrested and which the worst. None have done anything wrong in regards to the situation at hand anyways...so why not just have a little fun?

Lol @ Helmuth though. "You can't even spell indictment..."

JayA

01-23-2007, 01:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are so out of touch...

First of all, clearly, guys like Lederer and Ferguson are on grey legal ground because they not only own a portion of Full Tilt, but they have also aided in the programming of it's software. These guys are continually making profit from Full Tilt every single day. Profits of which the majority comes from American business. In contrast, the guys who were arrested from Neteller don't even run the company anymore.

Both Jesus and Lederer live in the US. Why haven't the feds gone after them in some way? Like someone else said in another thread it's not like they have to wait at some airport. They live here.

The sole reason is that such an event would just be too public, which is unlike everything they have been doing thus far. Pay attention to the majority of the events that have happened recently concerning all of this; it has all been done in quite possibly the most silent manner possible. I play poker regularly AND come here and I didn't even know about anything until days later. While you guys sit here and debate all night, every night, stars is still showing 100k peak players, and UB has 24k, which was more than the last peak i checked there. Nothing has really changed, and most of these people don't even really know what really has went down yet.

The feds and DOJ don't really want to start a commotion, they just want their money while they "get the job done". They are going to need a much more robust case to take against anyone at Full Tilt and any big poker name online in general, and they will get flak about it no matter what once it's on a celebrity stage and public opinion becomes an issue.

if you guys would stop feeling so timid about the situation all the time, maybe you all could actually get together, get organized, concoct something, and do something about what is going on. I see alot of this mood of futility all the time, or that "we're nothing and don't mean much to anyone" type of thinking in people who are supposed to be game theory experts in a $6 billion whatever industry that has garnered massive unprecedented success in TV and pop culture. It's getting annoying. It's not like the brainpower isn't in this community. But i guess this is America, so of course people will just sit back apathetically and lazily while their freedoms, no matter how trivial they are (like playing poker), will get run over by a semi.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gov't isn't going after poker sites like Full Tilt or software sites like Tiltware. They're going after the source, ewallets, along with sportsbooks. I've talked to reliable sources close to Howard, and as from what I hear, he is in no sort of trouble. Don't you think that if Howard and Ferguson were in some sort of legal trouble, they would be smart enough to be aware of it and take the appropriate course of action?

thetruest

01-23-2007, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are so out of touch...

First of all, clearly, guys like Lederer and Ferguson are on grey legal ground because they not only own a portion of Full Tilt, but they have also aided in the programming of it's software. These guys are continually making profit from Full Tilt every single day. Profits of which the majority comes from American business. In contrast, the guys who were arrested from Neteller don't even run the company anymore.

Both Jesus and Lederer live in the US. Why haven't the feds gone after them in some way? Like someone else said in another thread it's not like they have to wait at some airport. They live here.

The sole reason is that such an event would just be too public, which is unlike everything they have been doing thus far. Pay attention to the majority of the events that have happened recently concerning all of this; it has all been done in quite possibly the most silent manner possible. I play poker regularly AND come here and I didn't even know about anything until days later. While you guys sit here and debate all night, every night, stars is still showing 100k peak players, and UB has 24k, which was more than the last peak i checked there. Nothing has really changed, and most of these people don't even really know what really has went down yet.

The feds and DOJ don't really want to start a commotion, they just want their money while they "get the job done". They are going to need a much more robust case to take against anyone at Full Tilt and any big poker name online in general, and they will get flak about it no matter what once it's on a celebrity stage and public opinion becomes an issue.

if you guys would stop feeling so timid about the situation all the time, maybe you all could actually get together, get organized, concoct something, and do something about what is going on. I see alot of this mood of futility all the time, or that "we're nothing and don't mean much to anyone" type of thinking in people who are supposed to be game theory experts in a $6 billion whatever industry that has garnered massive unprecedented success in TV and pop culture. It's getting annoying. It's not like the brainpower isn't in this community. But i guess this is America, so of course people will just sit back apathetically and lazily while their freedoms, no matter how trivial they are (like playing poker), will get run over by a semi.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gov't isn't going after poker sites like Full Tilt or software sites like Tiltware. They're going after the source, ewallets, along with sportsbooks. I've talked to reliable sources close to Howard, and as from what I hear, he is in no sort of trouble. Don't you think that if Howard and Ferguson were in some sort of legal trouble, they would be smart enough to be aware of it and take the appropriate course of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's to say they're not preparing to take the "appropriate course of action" as we speak?

JayA

01-23-2007, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you guys are so out of touch...

First of all, clearly, guys like Lederer and Ferguson are on grey legal ground because they not only own a portion of Full Tilt, but they have also aided in the programming of it's software. These guys are continually making profit from Full Tilt every single day. Profits of which the majority comes from American business. In contrast, the guys who were arrested from Neteller don't even run the company anymore.

Both Jesus and Lederer live in the US. Why haven't the feds gone after them in some way? Like someone else said in another thread it's not like they have to wait at some airport. They live here.

The sole reason is that such an event would just be too public, which is unlike everything they have been doing thus far. Pay attention to the majority of the events that have happened recently concerning all of this; it has all been done in quite possibly the most silent manner possible. I play poker regularly AND come here and I didn't even know about anything until days later. While you guys sit here and debate all night, every night, stars is still showing 100k peak players, and UB has 24k, which was more than the last peak i checked there. Nothing has really changed, and most of these people don't even really know what really has went down yet.

The feds and DOJ don't really want to start a commotion, they just want their money while they "get the job done". They are going to need a much more robust case to take against anyone at Full Tilt and any big poker name online in general, and they will get flak about it no matter what once it's on a celebrity stage and public opinion becomes an issue.

if you guys would stop feeling so timid about the situation all the time, maybe you all could actually get together, get organized, concoct something, and do something about what is going on. I see alot of this mood of futility all the time, or that "we're nothing and don't mean much to anyone" type of thinking in people who are supposed to be game theory experts in a $6 billion whatever industry that has garnered massive unprecedented success in TV and pop culture. It's getting annoying. It's not like the brainpower isn't in this community. But i guess this is America, so of course people will just sit back apathetically and lazily while their freedoms, no matter how trivial they are (like playing poker), will get run over by a semi.

[/ QUOTE ]

The gov't isn't going after poker sites like Full Tilt or software sites like Tiltware. They're going after the source, ewallets, along with sportsbooks. I've talked to reliable sources close to Howard, and as from what I hear, he is in no sort of trouble. Don't you think that if Howard and Ferguson were in some sort of legal trouble, they would be smart enough to be aware of it and take the appropriate course of action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's to say they're not preparing to take the "appropriate course of action" as we speak?

[/ QUOTE ]

So as far as Howard knows, he is in no sort of legal trouble and has not crossed any legal boundaries.

JPFisher55

01-23-2007, 01:31 AM

This post was in fun, but the point is that the DOJ is not going to arrest any pro or indict anyone connected with a poker only website because they know that the case would lose and quickly. Check out the numerous federal case law precedents that the Wire Act only applies to sporting contests and not games of chance i.e. poker. The UIGEA does not expand that law. It might make accepting a bet from Louisiana or Washingtion unlawful, but how do you prove the knowing acceptance of such a bet. Another legal hurdle is the game of skill v. chance. And the WTO ruling further unbalances the whole foundation of the DOJ campaign.
So they take on a sports betting site of dubious reputation, file a dubious money laundering case against the leading ewallet and subpoena large investment banks that serviced the publically traded sector of the industry to scare everyone. Yeah, it has worked so far, but the DOJ is far from obtaining any convictions, has not yet obtained any subpoenaed material (let's see what they actually obtain) and has not yet managed to close down every online sports betting sites; never mind poker sites. And I'll bet the bureacrats at the WTO are not impressed with this type of compliance.
Let's remember he who laughs last laughs best.

JayA

01-23-2007, 01:32 AM

Nice post JP. Are you from Louisiana that you mentioned us in there?

Goooo Saints!!! Woot!!!

JPFisher55

01-23-2007, 01:41 AM

No I am from St. Louis, MO. Missouri has no law specifically making internet gambling unlawful. Its general gambling laws have never been tested in court. And under its casino licensing statutes, poker is referred to as a game of skill that a licensed casino can offer.
The reason that I mentioned Louisiana and Washington is that they have enacted laws specifically making online gambling unlawful. A few other states have laws that seem to make internet gaming unlawful. Until the UIGEA, these laws were unconstitutional under a line of cases generally referred to as the dormant commerce clause cases. Which is why states cannot collect sales tax on internet sales unless the seller has a place of business in the state of the buyer. The UIGEA seems to have federalized a state statute that makes internet gaming unlawful. Which is why some of the poker sites have ceased accepting bets from some states.
My point is that resolving this mess will take lots of time, litigation and yes legal fees. If you want to blame lawyers for all of this go ahead. I won't be offended.

Zobags

01-23-2007, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Until the UIGEA, these laws were unconstitutional under a line of cases generally referred to as the dormant commerce clause cases.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe anything in the UIGEA changed the constitutionality of state regulation of internet gambling. An valid state (or federal or tribal) law is required to serve as the basis for any UIGEA action.

Botchman

01-23-2007, 02:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
okay, this retardation about "but what if they arrested a pro, would that help us??????" has gone on far enough.

Here is what would happen if a pro was indicted:

1)pro goes to jail
2)nothing else

oh yeah, the papers might run a page 17 story, and a few places might even run editorials for one day. that'd be about all. it's not major news, most people that see "poker pros being arrested for gambling" assume they did something wrong (and/or that online gambling is illegal), and a large chunk of the people that read it will agree with the arrest.

so basically, you're wishing for innocent people doing the same thing everyone else on this site does to go to jail for no good reason. stfu plz thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't wish that they get arrested , but you don't know what the hell you're talking about. There is a "chance" they go to jail yes. Do you really think they'd be able to find a jury to convict them?? I think the public would be divided on the arrest of a pro, poker has came along way in the last 5 or so years and is looked at differnetly by alot of people now. Supposivly millions of Americans play and 1 or 2 of them would possibly end up on the jury, there are alot of pro-choice people out there as well that would probobly think that the government should mind their own god damn business about what people our doing in their own houses, if not at least people that would sympathize with the arrest of someone as you put it is an "innocent" person.

adanthar

01-23-2007, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't wish that they get arrested , but you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I'm gonna play this card, but one of us has a law degree, and it's not you.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a "chance" they go to jail yes. Do you really think they'd be able to find a jury to convict them??

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. easily.

JayA

01-23-2007, 02:52 AM

Convict them of what?

Botchman

01-23-2007, 02:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't wish that they get arrested , but you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I'm gonna play this card, but one of us has a law degree, and it's not you.

[ QUOTE ]
There is a "chance" they go to jail yes. Do you really think they'd be able to find a jury to convict them??

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. easily.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you're supposed to have a law degree? Have you actually ever put it to use or is it just something you got to hang on your wall??

adanthar

01-23-2007, 03:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Convict them of what?

[/ QUOTE ]

we're debating what happens if a pro is indicted, correct? if a pro is indicted, the DOJ thinks they have enough evidence to convict on any one of a very broad range of charges. *if* it happens I would not bet on an acquittal on any given charge they choose to try that person on.

adanthar

01-23-2007, 03:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]

And you're supposed to have a law degree? Have you actually ever put it to use or is it just something you got to hang on your wall??

[/ QUOTE ]

you are right sir, jury nullification is an active and regular part of our judicial system that happens all the time.

wait, no it doesn't.

http://cannabisnews.com/news/15/thread15352.shtml

JayA

01-23-2007, 03:05 AM

What charges though? What are they doing wrong by playing online poker?

schroedy

01-23-2007, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Convict them of what?

[/ QUOTE ]

we're debating what happens if a pro is indicted, correct? if a pro is indicted, the DOJ thinks they have enough evidence to convict on any one of a very broad range of charges. *if* it happens I would not bet on an acquittal on any given charge they choose to try that person on.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are aware, I presume, of polls that indicate that nearly 80% of the public believe that online gambling should be legal.

P.S. -- Don't play the law degree card on me, because it'll just be a chop.

adanthar

01-23-2007, 03:21 AM

cool, so you're aware of the going rate of jury nullifications lately, yes? which one do you think is more sympathetic here, the online gambler or medicinal pot grower?

Botchman

01-23-2007, 03:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

And you're supposed to have a law degree? Have you actually ever put it to use or is it just something you got to hang on your wall??

[/ QUOTE ]

you are right sir, jury nullification is an active and regular part of our judicial system that happens all the time.

wait, no it doesn't.

http://cannabisnews.com/news/15/thread15352.shtml

[/ QUOTE ]

Jury nullification is just "usually" the last hope, I believe a pros lawyer would be able to get the charge thrown out before it comes to that, I was just using the jury example becasue I believe if it comes to that in a case like this a jury wouldn't convict.

Note how I put "usually" in brackets, I found an interesting article about the link you provided.

http://www.green-aid.com/LAT0605.htm

Botchman

01-23-2007, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
cool, so you're aware of the going rate of jury nullifications lately, yes? which one do you think is more sympathetic here, the online gambler or medicinal pot grower?

[/ QUOTE ]
He wasn't even allowed to present the evidence that it was for medicinal use, and 8 of the jurors said they would'nt have convicted had they known that. Get your facts straight there.

adanthar

01-23-2007, 03:30 AM

actually, the followup to that case is that the verdict thrown out (a juror asked his attorney friend about medical marijuana during deliberations) as was the sentencing. therefore, he's probably getting a new trial, at which he'll likely be convicted again and sentenced to more than one day.

the point is, that was as sympathetic a defendant as you will ever find, and "the last hope" does not begin to cover how futile that idea is. prosecutors devote a very large amount of time to weeding people that even know what it means out of the juror pool.

Python49

01-23-2007, 03:35 AM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8115298 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=law&Number=8115298&Search page=1&Main=8115298&Words=+Python49&topic=&Search= true#Post8115298)

Botchman

01-23-2007, 03:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]

the point is, that was as sympathetic a defendant as you will ever find, and "the last hope" does not begin to cover how futile that idea is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then your point has no validity, how can he have been a sympathetic defendent when the jury wanst allowed to hear that the marijuanna was for medicinal use? After the jury convicted him they found out that the marijuanna was for medicinal purposes and 8 of them wrote a letter to the judge telling him to pretty much overturn the verdict.

Sure prosecuters try to weed out jurors that aren't favourable for their case but are you forgeting the defence also gets to do this???
I believe that a FT Pro would not get convicted one way or the other, and am suprised to hear you have a law degree because you seem to have the belief that becasue somebody is charged they will get convicted 100% no ifs, ands, or butts.
There are always leaks in cases, and sometimes the leaks are big enough for the case to get thrown out. It's not Guilty till proved Innocent, it's Innocent till proven Guilty

PropPlayer

01-23-2007, 04:00 AM

Hellmuth on the stand:
"What don't you understand??? I'm the 10x Champion of Holdem!"

Get up from the stand so he can walk away for a bit (to do his I'm steaming and need to cool down walk). Judge orders him to sit down. Phil: "Jesus F$@$ing christ can't a man go to the bathroom".

Botchman

01-23-2007, 04:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth on the stand:
"What don't you understand??? I'm the 10x Champion of Holdem!"

Get up from the stand so he can walk away for a bit (to do his I'm steaming and need to cool down walk). Judge orders him to sit down. Phil: "Jesus F$@$ing christ can't a man go to the bathroom".

[/ QUOTE ]
AWESOME!!! I can't stop laughing

tautomer

01-23-2007, 05:52 AM

Don't laugh, uptight laywers will pound their righteous chests.

JayA

01-23-2007, 11:30 AM

Fishhead24

01-23-2007, 12:28 PM

There is no way JESUS and HOWARD can sleep at night if there involvement in FULLTILT is as stated in this thread.

Would anticipate them pulling out any day.

keebler61

01-23-2007, 12:45 PM

fishhead is probably a planted DOJ agent lol.

Seriously, the bill was aimed toward making it more difficult to transfer money onto said sites and less on the site itself. Plus, they're sort of a 3rd party on this one. They were doing work programming for a foriegn company (where e-gaming is legal). They are not responsible for what the company decides to do with said product.

berya

01-23-2007, 01:02 PM

Great post.

People wishing innocent people going to jail... unfreaking believable, well not really, but still pretty freaking amazing.

Fishhead24

01-23-2007, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fishhead is probably a planted DOJ agent lol.

Seriously, the bill was aimed toward making it more difficult to transfer money onto said sites and less on the site itself. Plus, they're sort of a 3rd party on this one. They were doing work programming for a foriegn company (where e-gaming is legal). They are not responsible for what the company decides to do with said product.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats all fine and dandy.......but the US government has proven time and time again, commonsense means nothing.........or the LAW for that matter.

-FH-

JayA

01-23-2007, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Great post.

People wishing innocent people going to jail... unfreaking believable, well not really, but still pretty freaking amazing.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one is wishing people would go to jail in this omg. It's just a friendly thread. Get a sense of humor, plz.

And Howard and Ferguson did nothing wrong. The end.

tipperdog

01-23-2007, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This post was in fun, but the point is that the DOJ is not going to arrest any pro or indict anyone connected with a poker only website because they know that the case would lose and quickly. Check out the numerous federal case law precedents that the Wire Act only applies to sporting contests and not games of chance i.e. poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, this view is very naive. Remember that:

1. In the view of the U.S. Govt., online gambling (and yes, that includes poker) violates the wire act. Of course, this is a debatable point (indeed, it's probably an uphill legal fight for the Govt), but ambitious US Attorneys could absolutely arrest a pro affiliated with a poker site if they wanted.

2. Your original post acknowledges that "scare" tactics have worked thus far. You need to realize that such tactics are the stock and trade of prosecutors. The cost of mounting a legal defense is HUGE. And the risk--even a remote risk--of serious jail time is something few are willing to take. So prosecutors extract plea bargains and use the information you give up to go after someone higher up. This happens every day; it's prosecution 101.

3. You are right that UIGEA didn't fundamentally alter gaming law. However, it did alter finance law. Arguably, any time an employee or officer of a gaming site tells US poker player how they can still fund their accounts is violating that law. Even Lee Jones making a 2+2 post could subject him to legal jeopardy. Of course, you could argue that such posts don't violate UIGEA, but who's right is less important than you may think. The fact is, the feds could arrest him, toss him jail, and present him with the serious prospect of a long prison term. I am certain that Lederer, Ferguson, Jones, et. al. are spending lots of time on the phone with their lawyers these days. If not, they should be.

The most important take-away from activities in recent weeks (Neteller arrests, investment house subpeonas, etc.) is that the U.S. DOJ is very serious about internet gaming. That should scare the beejesus out of poker pros affiliated with gaming sites or affiliate buisnesses (such as TiltWare).

Of course, I have no idea if DoJ plans to go after poker pros next. But to suggest it's an impossibility is very wrong.

Edit: Oh, and Adanthar was also right. If they arrested a "beloved" pro, no one would care.