Learn, Chat & Jail with the Pros

[gaboonviper]

Since Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson are both part owners of Tiltware, the software company that supplies Full Tilt with all its proprietary software(for huge amounts of money)--and since the U.S. government considers Full Tilt a totally illegal operation-- how long do you think it will be before Lederer and Ferguson are nailed in some way by the government?? Furthermore, Full Tilt is the most VISIBLE gambling site out there-- they are the sponsors of both the Pro Am Poker Equalizer and Poker After Dark-- and they do a ton of tv ads. They also sponsor the (by far) largest and most visible group of top poker pros in the world with tourney buy ins and who knows what other financial benefits. In short Full Tilt is OUT THERE in front of everyones eyes on a daily basis. And they are HUGE. So, do you really think the U.S. government has not taken notice of them and would not just love to make an example of them by nailing them with lord knows how many charges. And don't forget that just about all of Team Full Tilt live in the U.S. and are thus very EASY TARGETS. So go ahead: Learn, Chat & Go To Jail with the Pros.

[gummy d]

I hope full tilt and its pros tell the doj to go fk itself.

[LeeLoo]

[ QUOTE ]
Since Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson are both part owners of Tiltware, the software company that supplies Full Tilt with all its proprietary software(for huge amounts of money)--and since the U.S. government considers Full Tilt a totally illegal operation

[/ QUOTE ]


Perhaps this is true perhaps not. If they consider it a totally illegal operation and you believ the pros will be arrested what is the holdup. They do not have to wait for them at an airport to arrest them. They live here. Perhaps they are building a case, perhaps not but to make a statement of fact without knowledge of the facts seems reckless and misleading. Who are you trying to scare?

[Petomane]

If the DoJ has gone after Credit Suisse, they're not going to cut Annie Duke any slack.

Our top poker gods are suddenly criminals overnight. What damage this whole brouhaha has done to America's favorite pastime is just beginning to sink in.

Sorry, it would be great if they arrested Duke, Lederer, Ferguson etc. If nothing else mobilizes people, this will.

[Gregg777]

This is why FTP gets my business.

(Oh yeah, and the RB /images/graemlins/grin.gif )

[satya]

[ QUOTE ]

Sorry, it would be great if they arrested Duke, Lederer, Ferguson etc. If nothing else mobilizes people, this will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe that's why they haven't done it. Yet. That'd be too public, unlike they way things have gone down thusfar.

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
Since Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson are both part owners of Tiltware, the software company that supplies Full Tilt with all its proprietary software(for huge amounts of money)--and since the U.S. government considers Full Tilt a totally illegal operation-- how long do you think it will be before Lederer and Ferguson are nailed in some way by the government?? Furthermore, Full Tilt is the most VISIBLE gambling site out there-- they are the sponsors of both the Pro Am Poker Equalizer and Poker After Dark-- and they do a ton of tv ads. They also sponsor the (by far) largest and most visible group of top poker pros in the world with tourney buy ins and who knows what other financial benefits. In short Full Tilt is OUT THERE in front of everyones eyes on a daily basis. And they are HUGE. So, do you really think the U.S. government has not taken notice of them and would not just love to make an example of them by nailing them with lord knows how many charges. And don't forget that just about all of Team Full Tilt live in the U.S. and are thus very EASY TARGETS. So go ahead: Learn, Chat & Go To Jail with the Pros.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. Do you honestly think they're going to go to jail? No. There is no case. The government is going after ewallets and sportsbooks more. Full Tilt is neither of those. I've talked to a very reliable source close to Howard and was told that they would most likely be in no trouble. Howard is a smart business man. He would have exited the U.S. market if he saw any threat to his company or his future as a U.S. citizen.

[JPFisher55]

The federal case law on the Wire Act and related laws has consistently held that they only apply to sporting contests and not games of chance.
Yes, the DOJ says these online poker sites are unlawful. But they do not seem to be willing to act on this ascertion; with the possible exception of the subpoena of the PartyPoker records. To the best of my knowledge PartyGaming is the only LSE online gaming company that has not offered sport betting to the US market. Maybe the court will limit these subpoenas to not include info on PartyGaming and give us our poker exception. Ok, big hope, but it could happen.

[Gregg777]

They did have the online casino and BJ though.

[Skallagrim]

JPFisher is right, at least to a certain extent. SO FAR the Feds have avoided making charges based on even casino-style games, much less poker (which clearly inovlves at sleast some skill); all the specific charges have been related to sportsbetting, which has been undeniably illegal all along (the Wire Act). Probably the Feds hope that by shutting down all the e-wallets in the US, US online poker will just fade away and they wont have to test their opinions on poker in Court. I am sure, however, that the next big e-wallet company will not make the same mistake and will supply onlu poker sites w/o sportsbetting, or (to be really safe) just poker alone. That is when the real court case may come (JP's hope isnt totally unrealistic). And not until then should any of the FTP pros worry, and even if arested, there are really good legal arguments for the poker alone sites that they are quite legal to play on in most states. They are likiely ready for that fight.

[deepdowntruth]

Tiltware is a software developer. Full Tilt Poker is an online gambling site. See the difference?

[JayA]

Howard is still in charge of Full Tilt though...but it is highly unlikely for him to get into any sort of trouble.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
Tiltware is a software developer. Full Tilt Poker is an online gambling site. See the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Aiding and abetting

[otctrader]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, it would be great if they arrested Duke, Lederer, Ferguson etc. If nothing else mobilizes people, this will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think this was true, but I think we're somewhat out of touch with the non-poker world. Case in point, I was watching poker on TV (typical well known pro lineup) with relatives around Christmas, and several commented that the guys on TV look like a bunch of seedy, crooked, degenerates.

If a bunch of these guys were prosecuted, I bet the average person might blink for a few seconds and then return to watching American Idol or whatever.

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]
If the DoJ has gone after Credit Suisse, they're not going to cut Annie Duke any slack.

Our top poker gods are suddenly criminals overnight. What damage this whole brouhaha has done to America's favorite pastime is just beginning to sink in.

Sorry, it would be great if they arrested Duke, Lederer, Ferguson etc. If nothing else mobilizes people, this will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arresting the FT Pros is the best thing that could happen to our fight. As it appears now, the big poker names have'nt done to much about this new legislation. If they were to get arrested, who the hell would convict them??? I think it would be impossible for them to get a jury to convict. And also they would get force their supporter's into action, The US government would get so much [censored] for arresting them I don't think it would be worth it. You will hear massive public outcry. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[deepdowntruth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tiltware is a software developer. Full Tilt Poker is an online gambling site. See the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Aiding and abetting

[/ QUOTE ]

You win at law.

[ekdikeo]

I don't think there's any "Aiding and Abetting" there. They are a U.S. Corporation selling a foreign company software that is perfectly legal for them to use. It is questionable as to if it is legal for their client to offer their services here, though.

[Mhoram]

After Howard's experience in NYC with Steve Z. it doesn't make any sense to think a smart guy like that would yet again put himself in a position where he could be arrested. Even after the October bill passed, council would have advised the company to comply with the law and cut off US players if there was any reasonable risk to the pros.

Common sense says that if the site is still serving US customers and the pros continue to remain affiliated with the site then they must be sure they are safe from prosecution. No way the proceeds from Full Tilt could be worth more than Vegas and US Citizenship.

[JayA]

You're right. They were told nothing in the neighborhood of "Stay off the site for a while." Gotta think..these are smart people, the owners/creaters of Full Tilt/Tiltware. They are using their common sense and are well educated on the bill. They aren't going to put themselves in jail.

[agent orange]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, it would be great if they arrested Duke, Lederer, Ferguson etc. If nothing else mobilizes people, this will.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to think this was true, but I think we're somewhat out of touch with the non-poker world. Case in point, I was watching poker on TV (typical well known pro lineup) with relatives around Christmas, and several commented that the guys on TV look like a bunch of seedy, crooked, degenerates.

If a bunch of these guys were prosecuted, I bet the average person might blink for a few seconds and then return to watching American Idol or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

well put. that is probably the major obstacle in the battle that will eventually have to fought IF the online poker sites (not sport-betting sites) themselves are targeted directly. people only fight for rights when it affects them personally, and otherwise generally couldn't give a flying flop. to the general population, our arguments for freedom wlll fall short of their moral judgments and be overlooked due to their complacency/lack of interest.

i don't think the sky is falling yet, but when it does, i doubt we or the sites will be able to hold it up. we are far outnumbered by the american idol watchers (as you mentioned.) try to take away american idol as a "game of chance" and you'll see mountains move. bad analogy, i know. if only there was an entry fee for that show...there isn't, is there?

[JPFisher55]

I'm hoping that the large international banks fight the subpoenas in court. From all the articles it seems that some negotiation between these banks' lawyers and the DOJ has already occurred.
Court litigation over what the DOJ can subpoena might involve the applicability of the Wire Act, etc. to online casinos and poker. However, often criminal authorities can subpoena material if there is any possibility that it can lead to evidence of a crime. We'll just have to wait.

[jimmytrick]

You folks need to stop and consider organized crime. Almost all of the major crime families where well known by law enforcement and the families knew the law knew. And yet they continued to operate. Nobody bailed out, do you expect pros associated with offshore sites to be any less influenced by money?

Its all about the money. None of these guys are gonna bail out until the DOJ moves on someone.

And the thing about the DOJ is that they aren't going to move until they have the goods because they don't have to. Slowy but surely, I think they will.

With an unpopular lame duck president and a vice president that is not running, what does the administration have to worry about here? Not one thing.

I would be really surprised if there are not arrests at the WSOP this summer. I would not be surprised to see a Full Tilt pro get plucked right off the final table.

You see, for the government, its not about the money. Its the principle, as they see it. Just as the Feds hated the mob for thumbing its nose at them, I they hate poker players also. I think every time a tourney is on television blood rushes to the heads of these people and eventually, something is gonna explode.

[JayA]

[ QUOTE ]
You folks need to stop and consider organized crime. Almost all of the major crime families where well known by law enforcement and the families knew the law knew. And yet they continued to operate. Nobody bailed out, do you expect pros associated with offshore sites to be any less influenced by money?

Its all about the money. None of these guys are gonna bail out until the DOJ moves on someone.

And the thing about the DOJ is that they aren't going to move until they have the goods because they don't have to. Slowy but surely, I think they will.

With an unpopular lame duck president and a vice president that is not running, what does the administration have to worry about here? Not one thing.

I would be really surprised if there are not arrests at the WSOP this summer. I would not be surprised to see a Full Tilt pro get plucked right off the final table.

You see, for the government, its not about the money. Its the principle, as they see it. Just as the Feds hated the mob for thumbing its nose at them, I they hate poker players also. I think every time a tourney is on television blood rushes to the heads of these people and eventually, something is gonna explode.

[/ QUOTE ]

So they're gonna arrest just a pro from Full Tilt at the WSOP because they dislike them? Great case for court I guess.

[binki]

huh, I guess Tiltware, the makers of FTP software knew something was up when they moved their software development from Hollywood to Ireland a few months ago.

[JayA]

Tiltware wasn't in any sort of legal trouble here though, were they? I didn't think they were, but I could be mistaken.

[ericicecream]

These guys have taken extensive legal advice and decided to continue on in the u.s. This is a good thing for us players. Why are you trying to scare them?

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
huh, I guess Tiltware, the makers of FTP software knew something was up when they moved their software development from Hollywood to Ireland a few months ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know the details, but moving their development from Hollywood to Ireland was most likely an economic decision, not a legal one. Moving large software development offshore is common in all industries these days.