NL $50 JJ on river

[Racketeer]

River betting is Villain 65/2/.7
I was fearing SB more than this guy, what now?
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
8 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is UTG with :j /images/graemlins/diamond.gif :j /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: :5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif :5 /images/graemlins/club.gif :2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif ($2)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $2, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: :8 /images/graemlins/club.gif ($8)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

River: :7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($23)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $23, SB folds, Hero???

[Rollos]

Call preflop is horrible, raise it up. As played fold river, UTG probably has a boat or trips.

[cobb0716]

It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here. Villain could be limping with so, so many hands that crush you right now with a VPIP of 65. He could have any 5, some weird two pair hand, or even a rivered straight. Super easy fold.

You gotta raise those jacks preflop man.

rc

[Racketeer]

[ QUOTE ]
It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set. Sometimes I raise but it's not automatic.

[cobb0716]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set. Sometimes I raise but it's not automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a prime example of why limping with jacks is terrible. You most likely had the best hand preflop, but you choose to limp and allow a ton of hands to see a cheap flop. You flop an overpair which seems great, but due to the super wide range you allow villain to have you have no idea where you are.

Additionally, if you are playing hands for set value thats more incentive to RAISE preflop, not limp. When you do hit your set, you want to be playing for stacks. It is very, very hard to get someone's entire stack in the middle on an unraised flop.

[Racketeer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's entirely possible that limping preflop with JJ has gotten you in a lot of trouble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set. Sometimes I raise but it's not automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a prime example of why limping with jacks is terrible. You most likely had the best hand preflop, but you choose to limp and allow a ton of hands to see a cheap flop. You flop an overpair which seems great, but due to the super wide range you allow villain to have you have no idea where you are.

Additionally, if you are playing hands for set value thats more incentive to RAISE preflop, not limp. When you do hit your set, you want to be playing for stacks. It is very, very hard to get someone's entire stack in the middle on an unraised flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you raise all pocket pairs in early position? Under that logic you would be. I don't think Jacks are easy to play in a raised pot oop. Like I said I do both limp and raise but it isn't automatic.

[thac]

Jacks are easier to play in a raised pot OOP than in a 4-way unraised pot OOP. What are you putting villains on that they would call two streets that you beat? A flush draw and wired pairs lower than yours are possible, but wouldn't a pair raise somewhere? Most likely the turn since there are now two flush draws out there, but he just called - he's not scared of a thing - and the psb on the river proves it. He either has 22 or 88 here and I'm pitching it. When you limp here, you're basically turning your hand into 22 and are playing it for set value only IMO.

[cobb0716]

[ QUOTE ]
So do you raise all pocket pairs in early position? Under that logic you would be. I don't think Jacks are easy to play in a raised pot oop. Like I said I do both limp and raise but it isn't automatic.

[/ QUOTE ]

In a word, yes. Obviously I'm not going to do any one thing 100% of the time because I have to mix up my game, but much more often than not I am.

rc

[Racketeer]

I think JJ is a better hand for flopping a set in EP. Even if it isn't I'm pretty sure I am not losing very much value from it. If I wasn't in EP I would raise almost every time, its not like I limp with this hand from everywhere.

[RAHZero]

[ QUOTE ]
I think JJ is a better hand for flopping a set in EP. Even if it isn't I'm pretty sure I am not losing very much value from it. If I wasn't in EP I would raise almost every time, its not like I limp with this hand from everywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are losing a TON of value by not raising this up PF. Jacks are very likely the best hand out PF, but by limping, you allow your opponents to outdraw you cheaply. Raising forces your opponents to make a mistake PF by calling with a lesser hand, allows you to play your hand much more easily (a raised pot HU OOP is much easier to play than a 4-way unraised pot OOP) and gives you the chance to win stacks when you spike a set. I don't play much FR, but when I do, I'm raising JJ UTG pretty much 99% of the time. I might limp with some lower PPs. Once I get to third or fourth to act PF, I'm raising any PP. Read the 6-max fundamentals post by Tien, which is in the "Essential Selection of uNL" sticky. Yes, it's geared toward 6-max play, but it's also got a good explanation of why you should be raising all PPs PF.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, thats why I checked the river in hopes to see a showdown. I don't think limping with JJ is terrible, I think most of it's value will come from flopping a set.

[/ QUOTE ]
Turning JJ into 22? This is wrong.

And to answer your question about playing pairs in EP pf, I'm not sure about fr play, but in 6-max, it is definitely good to raise almost always.

[Racketeer]

This isn't 6-max, its full ring.

[RAHZero]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't 6-max, its full ring.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it's not 6-max, please make an effort to read the whole post next time. I was saying that even though the post I referenced is intended as a guide to 6-max play, it has a lot of general info that's very helpful for FR players as well.

[Davida.bBanner]

Not meaning to be rude but you should really listen to people if you're asking for help. They give it to you and you defend your play which was BAD.

I know your question was about the river but unfortunately (for your ego apparantly) there was preflop play and yours sucked.

[Racketeer]

[ QUOTE ]
Not meaning to be rude but you should really listen to people if you're asking for help. They give it to you and you defend your play which was BAD.

I know your question was about the river but unfortunately (for your ego apparantly) there was preflop play and yours sucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to at least make my position known and try to justify why I did it and find out why it is wrong. I may be wrong, and that is fine. I still stand behind my argument that if it is bad I am still not losing much value with this hand in EP. I like to limp 80% and raise 20%. The thing about Jacks is that you will barely ever stack someone if you don't flop a set with them.
I think we had a decent discussion about it, nobody's feelings got hurt, no profane language was used, and I also do believe I said that I may be wrong. I just think that it isn't as bad as everyone is advocating. I would really be interested in comparing stats for JJ with someone who raises 80% and limps 20% to someone who limps 80% and raises 20%.
If anyone wants to look, check out a preflop strategy section in No Limit Thoery and Practice. Sklansky says in EP to usually limp with pocket jacks. So meaning to be rude MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE ADDED SOMETHING MEANINGFUL TO THE THREAD.

[Fedfan691]

There are alot of good reasons to JJ here, and not many (if any) real good reasons to limp. Let's take a look at some of the reasons to raise JJ:

-Much easier to put opponents on hands:
In this instance, you have no idea what type of hand your opponent has. But if you raise preflop, you have a much better idea of what his range is, which is what you need to be doing (putting your opponents on a range of possible hands.)

-You have the lead in the hand
When you're the preflop raiser, you're expected to make a continuation bet on the flop, depending on texture/number of opponents. Now, one of the reasons you cite as limping is that most of the money made with jacks comes from flopping a set. Well, if you do flop a set and bet out on the flop, it looks just like a continuation bet, thus disguising the fact that you have a monster. It will become very expensive for your opponents to find out this information if they've made a hand, which wouldn't be true if you limped.

-Letting inferior hands draw out on you for free
This is self explainatory, as both the SB and BB are drawing for free, and players in other positions will be getting a decent/good price. You need to CHARGE these players to draw out on you, not let them do it for free. You're doing them a huge favor and costing yourself money.

-Limping with big pairs is a hugely exploitable move
It won't take long for your opponents to figure out that you limp with many of your big pairs, and that if you do play the postflop rounds aggressively, you've probably hit your set. You should be working on making yourself less exploitable, which will in turn make your opponents more exploitable.




These are just a couple of the many reasons why it's a huge leak to be limping jacks UTG in FR.