Live $40 Image

[Frond]

Just got done playing a Live 2 hour session at a $40 NLHE table in a cardroom. I was folding a lot of trash hands as usual that most others were limping in with and calling raises etc. I wouldn't say that I was completely cold-decked for the short session but it seemed that limping with a marg hand was useless cause there was almost always a raise of at least $6-8 Preflop from someone at the table. After about 45 minutes or so, any time I called the BB or put in a PF raise I'd hardly get any action at all from the table. A few would say, "Uh oh, he's playing a hand now!" and fold. My dilemma, how do I shed this image? I know I need to play some more hands and believe me I have opened up my starting hand requirements a lot from earlier this year. I still cannot see limping in with a hand like J4o from any position and calling a $6 raise cold. I have taken the advice here a far as value bet value bet value bet and I know that bluffing at this level is pretty futile with callers like these, but should I go ahead and play a trash hand once in a while with my tight image and even raise with it for a variance play? To me it's merely spewage. My heart tells me just play ABC here at this level. Thoughts?

[erbbysam]

it seems like a $6-$8 raise preflop is really high for a $40NLHE... wait for a bit for a well above average hand and start playing back at them or just make them say ""Uh oh, he's playing a hand now!"" and then show them K7o. After a few of those they will forget your nitty image for a while but if you're letting them push you around with overbets just sit back and wait for a monster in late position that you can just cold call most of the way down with and double up nicely.

[silly_monkey]

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My dilemma, how do I shed this image?


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Raise more often. Specifically, more often in position.

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I still cannot see limping in with a hand like J4o from any position and calling a $6 raise cold.


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Good, because that would be a terrible play. Don't limp with J4 and don't call a raise.

Keep in mind that 2 hours is a pretty short session. That's probably only about 50-60 hands of live play, and its very possible to get no hands that are playable in the position that they are dealt to you in that amount of time.

[silly_monkey]

BTW, when I've played $1/2 live I've had plenty of experiences where players make some comment luck "Uh oh! He's got a hand." Just before they put their call in the middle. They need to actually tighten up against you for your tight image to be a problem. If they're not playing tighter then don't worry about it. If they are, then steal like mad until they catch on.

[Frond]

That sounds good. The blinds were 1-2, pretty standard. Only hands that I got that were playable(to me anyways)were a few small-medium pairs, AKo and JJ. The med pairs were easy to get away from after the flop as was the JJ hand when the flop came 2 over cards with 5 in on the hand and a lot of action. The AK hand I won with out a showdown. I tried to limp in with a few suited connectors but there always seemed to be a large raise after me so I folded them, esp when I was out of position. I ended up down only $20 for the session and a lot of the $ I lost was in the blinds which is going to happen I know.

[IsaacAsimov]

This is a tough one. The blinds were 0.20-0.40 I assume. That means 6-8 dollars are 15-20 BB which is alot to call with a mediocre holding like K7o. Maybe wait for a hand and reraise big preflop. Maybe try this with JJ+ and AQ+ then after a while they would cut back on there big raises. Those raises just suck, I can't really see calling such raises with too many hands.

[AKQJ10]

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My dilemma, how do I shed this image?


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Raise more often. Specifically, more often in position.

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Yep. Semibluff hands like suited aces and small pairs.

That said, you probably are reporting on a small sample. I've been in games where I thought, "Oh, damn, I raise my QQ and got a bunch of folds". But what do you know -- two orbits later I get KK, raise, and get a five-way flop.

I do give your opponents credit for noting your table image, and maybe they'll play a little tighter against you. But then along comes KJ and it's just too good to fold!

So don't slowplay, but do more semibluff preflop raising and see if you're still taking down pots. I'll be surprised if that lasts long though.

[AKQJ10]

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This is a tough one. The blinds were 0.20-0.40 I assume.

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Sorry to be rude, but you've never ever played in a public cardroom, have you? I don't think you can appreciate how different B&M play is from online. I find live $1-2 games to be substantially looser than online 10-25 cent games.

California rooms generally have 50c and sometimes even 25c chips, but they don't play much. (Maybe in the occasional $1/2 limit game.)

[AKQJ10]

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it seems like a $6-$8 raise preflop is really high for a $40NLHE...

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This is another statement that's entirely ignorant of B&M poker.

I don't mind that people post speculative ideas out of ignorance. I do it too, and I learn a lot when people correct me. It would be nice to preface your opinion with something like, "I've never played live before, so take this with a grain of a salt," so that readers can process it accordingly.

This is also why I'm not crazy about the "NL40" shorthand. Online players who've never been in a cardroom think that means 40c big blind. Live games do not have a standard max buy-in of 100 BBL, so the shorthand is deceiving.

As a matter of fact, 4 BBL PFR (assuming $1-2 blinds) is probably too little for most small-stakes live games. A decent raise in the Foxwoods $1-2 is $15, maybe $10 if the table's caught on to how tight you play.

[IsaacAsimov]

@ AKQJT

You are right I am an ignorant internet player that hasn't played in a cardroom yet /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

For my defence, I wrote that I assumed the BB was 0.40 and I came to this conclusion cause the post said he was playing 40NLHE, which I interpreted as 40NL.
Don't people use the term NL 200 to describe a live 1/2 game sometimes?

ps.: I didn't feel offended by your post.

[Dans Full]

Isaac, I don't blame your question, I don't live in Cali, so I didnt know this until someone pointed it out to me but....40NL means $40 is the max buy in. they make you buy in short...why I am still not too sure. but the blinds are still $1/$2 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AKQJ10]

Yes, you're right, people use that terminology all the time -- which is why I think it's confusing for live play. Technically a complete description of the stakes would be "$1-2 blinds NLHE, $40 max., $40 min." At least I think the CA games are usually one fixed buyin, both max and min.

That's a little atypical except in California. On the East Coast most of the games are now $1-2, $60 min, $300 max. Vegas has all sorts, including the Wynn where they're ALL no max, even the $1-3.

The reason for limiting the buy-in is to keep the fish from busting out to the sharks too quickly. It's the same principle as limit -- higher variance, people think they're winning and stay longer. Except that televised NL killed limit, or so they say, so everyone wants to play NL but the cardrooms want to protect them and keep them in business.

I'm glad you didn't take offense -- I can sound a bit harsh at times, which I need to work on.

[jk1986]

Didn't read all the other responses, but I have had this problem before.
The best way to shed the image is to talk a lot at the table. It works a dream, as its a fact that people will assume that you are playing lots of hands when you are talking a lot, when in fact you just stick to a TAG game since the table is loose.

[Frond]

That's a good point jk1986, I am very quiet at the table and I think that is problem for me as well. I am happy with my progress in all of my poker games but this "rock" image is going to hurt me later on. When I play LHE or O8 it doesn't even get noticed most of the time cause that is where some of the the worst players are(LLHE that is). With NLHE, at times I am easily pushed off hands too much. Usually though, if there are a few really bad players at the table, they don't pick up on my image at all. Not today though, even the idiots were noticing it!

[IsaacAsimov]

40 max BI with 1/2 blinds is pretty funky and doesn't sound very interesting...

@ televised poker

This is very true that it is bringing a lot of people to NL.
One of the reasons I switched from FL to NL was that I was seeing a lot of really bad players take up NL and there are vast amount of people hosting sit and go's around where I live. So I thought why play limit when I can make more playing NL and have more fun at the same time.
My local Casino is offering a NL game with 100 min buy in and possibly no max (or maybe they have some max, but I think you can easily buy in for 200 BB) and 2/4 blinds. Which are pretty high for me right now as a 25-50 NL player. I kinda feel that I would have an edge in the game though. I plan to see a lot of gambling type players with cash to lose.

Are there anything that I should look out for not to do as an internet player playing live? Like giving people too much credit for considering pot odds and the liking.

[AKQJ10]

The B&M FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3882395&an=0&page=0#Post 3882395) may be helpful.

In general you're correct to expect really bad opponents, at least the bulk of them. Don't worry too much about physical tells, since bad players won't read them -- just try to act the same whether you have a marginal hand/bluff or a monster.

[IsaacAsimov]

K, thx for the link, wasn't aware of the board.

[Dennisa]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a tough one. The blinds were 0.20-0.40 I assume. That means 6-8 dollars are 15-20 BB which is alot to call with a mediocre holding like K7o. Maybe wait for a hand and reraise big preflop. Maybe try this with JJ+ and AQ+ then after a while they would cut back on there big raises. Those raises just suck, I can't really see calling such raises with too many hands.

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ahhhh no. I am sure the blinds are $1/$2 as this is common in Los Angeles for low limit card room holdem.

This is a very strange game. Its not uncommon to see $200-$400 stacks in this game.

If you are seeing 6-8 dollar raises, its a passive game. I've seen the standard raise more common at $10-15. When you are at $40.00 you are just trying to get all in preflop. Personally I would limp with all top ten hands in early position and 3 bet all in preflop. In late position, you can play a bit more. Call the initial raise and just try to move in with top pair or better. As you get a larger stack, you can go back to a more normal game.

[Frond]

One thing I did notice that was a bit strange in this limit of a $40 max buy in was that nobody bothered to rebuy when they got down to 50% of their buy in($20) Doesn't it make sense to have the max out whenever possible? AS far as odds, outs,position (vital things to me), nobobdy was even paaying attention at all except for one other guy and myself.

[AKQJ10]

Read GSIHE -- the $20 investment will repay itself richly. Summary at http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/Short_stack

I still can't get my brain around the idea that people won't give you action though. If it's the case, the limp/reraise idea isn't bad IF the game is aggrezsive. If it's passive, just raise -- you don't want to aim for taking JJ into a field of 6, even though it still has more than its fair share of equity there.

And balance if you need to, but jeez.... you're going to end up playing 87s all-in 6 ways, and I doubt it's really necessary. But you were there and I wasn't.

[Frond]

Thanks I'll check that out. Funny how one or two people saying "he's in the hand look out" chased a lot out of the pots I was in on. Next time I will capitalize on this tight image of mine for sure.

[KurtSF]

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One thing I did notice that was a bit strange in this limit of a $40 max buy in was that nobody bothered to rebuy when they got down to 50% of their buy in($20) Doesn't it make sense to have the max out whenever possible?

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Of course it makes sense to top off. They are idiots, that's why.

I think of paramount importance to remember here is:

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its very possible to get no hands that are playable in the position that they are dealt to you in that amount of time.

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People get crap for posting about 5k hands online, what makes you think 50 hands is enough to divine anything about the game character?

Regarding the original question, how to shed a tight image:

(1) Straddle! Put in a 4 dollar bet from UTG before the cards are dealt. It says "I'm here to GAMBOOOOL!!!!!"
(2) Show a bluff. Shove all in from the button with 94o, show it whether you get called or not. After that you can fold for 4 hours and anyone at the table to see the 94o hand will still think you are a maniac.
(3) Don't shed the image, use it! Steal steal steal steal - rob them blind.

Not how 3 and 2 go together. Star stealing. Push it as far as you can go. Get caught out of line. Go back to tight play.

$0.02

[AKQJ10]

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Of course it makes sense to top off. They are idiots, that's why.

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Bad players would be rational to leave as little as possible on the table so they give up as little EV as possible.

But it's not because they're rational beginners. It's because they're lazy.

[AKQJ10]

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...one or two people saying "he's in the hand look out"...

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This is an inappropriate violation of "one player per hand." A good dealer would tell them to pipe down.

However, you're in a tough spot, because you can't say anything to enforce the rule without bringing even more attention to your tight play. You could talk discreetly to the floor, who should mention it to the dealer as a training issue. But obviously you don't want the floor coming over to scold your players at your present table.

Semibluff theory says that you should pick a hand with some potential to "get out of line". (See NLHE:TAP -- pick the top range of hands you were going to fold.)

But human psychology says to pick absolute junk and show it down once. I did this with K5o in LP at Foxwoods once, flopped two pair, and won a nice pot. You can imagine that helped my table image a bit -- at least among the players who wouldn't ordinarily take a flop with K5. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[El_Oso]

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Yes, you're right, people use that terminology all the time -- which is why I think it's confusing for live play. Technically a complete description of the stakes would be "$1-2 blinds NLHE, $40 max., $40 min." At least I think the CA games are usually one fixed buyin, both max and min.

That's a little atypical except in California. On the East Coast most of the games are now $1-2, $60 min, $300 max. Vegas has all sorts, including the Wynn where they're ALL no max, even the $1-3.

The reason for limiting the buy-in is to keep the fish from busting out to the sharks too quickly. It's the same principle as limit -- higher variance, people think they're winning and stay longer. Except that televised NL killed limit, or so they say, so everyone wants to play NL but the cardrooms want to protect them and keep them in business.

I'm glad you didn't take offense -- I can sound a bit harsh at times, which I need to work on.

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This is similar to the Luxor in Las Vegas, you can buy in for $50 and $50 only, and the blinds are $1/$2. In that game you will see UTG raise to $10 pre-flop and commonly get 6-7 callers. There are obviously a lot of horrible players there but the small stacks and many callers can make for a ton of variance.

[ValarMorghulis]

Don't waste money on image plays.

I don't think anyone takes any notice of the remarks about being tight and I don't agree with the dealer having to mention it or speaking to the floor about it or anything like that. Just say something like, "If I see 72off one more time I'm going to throw up.", or "This dealer never gives me any good cards, I don't know why I'm even looking at them."

Based on the structure, I'd be trying to get allin preflop with AK/TT+ type hands and hope they hold up. Also getting in cheap with smaller pocket pairs for set value is okay. Forget about your suited connectors or any such rubbish.

[Leviathan101]

As a note, it is usually not profitable to blind steal. Between the jackpot rake and the house rake, at this limit, the pot you win is so small it's not worth the risk. If you really care about your image, I advise making a "huge" (7bb+ one less likely to be called in addition to drawing extra attention to yourself) raise with chaff. Then show it regardless what happens. If you get called and they lead into, show your hand and smile and say you caught my bluff.
Then tighten up again. Once you get deeper stacked you'll naturally loosen up a little, which will help your image further.

you could go for a limp reraise with a hand like 78d, but you're likely to get your stack in behind. Great for table image though, depends what you think is worth more. I don't care for table image much at the 1/2 and 1/3 games, but then again, I play a LAG game in teh first place, so I blend right into the masses.

[AKQJ10]

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Don't waste money on image plays.

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Well, I've said all through this thread that I suspect the phenomenon the OP observed at these stakes is pretty rare.

Your opponents don't understand domination theory, so even if they think, "This guy only plays good hands" they still will have a hard time folding AT or 99. I'm 98% sure OP could do nothing to address his table image and still make a lot of money in this game.

[Leviathan101]

he could probably increase his win rate though, if he altered his image.
at most 1-2 tables you will not encounter more than 1 player who actually pays attention.

[Frond]

I would tend to agree that it seems that a lot of these 1-2 tables that my tight image usually isn't a problem or picked up on by most. Maybe yesterday was one of the exceptions. I do like the idea of showing down a crap hand to set the tone though. I will try out some of the advice here and let you know how it goes. I'll try it for several sessions not just a short 2 hour one. As for stealing, I guess I can give it a try when there are a bunch of limpers ahead of me. Just going for blinds is obviously not worth it here.

Suited connectors and draw hands-I agree with one of the former posters that with the small stack buy in format that it is usually not worth it to try and play them. I tired to as much as I could but it seemed that I was always staring at a $8 raise or rereaise etc.

[Dennisa]

If you can pick up the blinds and limpers preflop, it is worth it. At the hustler its just a dollar and no jackpot drop. If they start calling to see a flop, that is where it gets very expensive. 3+1 or 4+1 if a flop is seen and you loose 1/2 your profit when you win with a c=bet.

[AKQJ10]

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3+1 or 4+1 if a flop is seen and you [lose] 1/2 your profit when you win with a c=bet.

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You mean a preflop raise will often get the pot heads up?! I find that really hard to believe.

Granted, we're talking about such a counterfactual case when we talk about OP mixing up his play.