Need help playing top pocket pairs (JJ/QQ/KK) [Archive]

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CanSpoilU

01-10-2007, 01:54 PM

Sorry for the long post. I am looking to improve my game. Can somebody here care to comment on how I played these hands. I'll post results later on today.

For the hands that I played pre-flop... did I play the bets properly? Should I have called or folded when I raised or called?

I try to do the right thing pre-flop by betting these agressively. But when do you draw the line. Lets just say I definitely did NOT win all these hands. I did win a few though.

If someone can tell me which hands I played well, and which ones I donked out on... it would be appreciated. Don't hold any comments back. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks in advance.

Hand 1: No real read on this guy. I only had about 10 hands played with him when I was dealt the kings.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.40
CO: $21.75
Button: $38.45
SB: $26.05
CanSpoilU: $25

Pre-flop: (5 players) CanSpoilU is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, Button raises to $0.75, SB calls, CanSpoilU raises to $5, Button raises to $15, SB folds, CanSpoilU raises all-in $25, Button calls.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($50.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.75)

Turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($50.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.75)

River: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($50.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.75)

Results:
Final pot: $50.75

Hand 2: Again no real read on villan yet since I didn't have many hands played. He was down about $15 bucks before this hand. After about 20 or so hands... his VP$IP was somewhere around 22% and PFR about 18%.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
CanSpoilU: $57.80
UTG+1: $36.55
CO: $89.45
Button: $48.65
SB: $50.45
BB: $26.95

Pre-flop: (6 players) CanSpoilU is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
CanSpoilU raises to $2, 3 folds, SB raises to $6.5, BB folds, CanSpoilU raises all-in $57.8, SB calls all-in $43.95.
Uncalled bets: $7.35 returned to CanSpoilU.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($51.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $101.4)

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($51.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $101.4)

River: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($51.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $101.4)

Results:
Final pot: $51.45

Hand 3: Again no read... only 9 total hands. Very high VP$IP of 85% in that short time. PFR 44%

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $10.40
UTG+1: $24.25
CO: $18.35
CanSpoilU: $24.50
SB: $18.90
BB: $12.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) CanSpoilU is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG raises to $1.5, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, CanSpoilU raises to $7, 2 folds, UTG raises all-in $10.4, UTG+1 folds, CanSpoilU calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($22.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $22.65)

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($22.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $22.65)

River: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($22.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $22.65)

Results:
Final pot: $22.65

Hand 4: I had a lot of hands against this guy. A good 100 hands. VP$IP 28% PFR 1.4% Total AF 1.67%. PT says Semi-Lose Passive-Passive player.

6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $30.15
CanSpoilU: $48.45
CO: $60.10
Button: $16.95
SB: $48.60
BB: $71.60

Pre-flop: (6 players) CanSpoilU is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, CanSpoilU raises to $2, CO folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($4.75, 2 players)
CanSpoilU bets $3, Button calls.

Turn: J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($10.75, 2 players)
CanSpoilU bets $8, Button calls.

River: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($26.75, 2 players)
CanSpoilU bets $4, Button calls all-in $3.95.
Uncalled bets: $0.05 returned to CanSpoilU.

Results:
Final pot: $34.65

Hand 5: I JUST sat down at this table. First hand drawn to me was KK

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19.40
CO: $21.75
CO: $60.1
Button: $38.45
SB: $26.05
CanSpoilU: $25

Pre-flop: (5 players) CanSpoilU is BB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
2 folds, Button raises to $0.75, SB calls, CanSpoilU raises to $5, Button raises to $15, SB folds, CanSpoilU raises all-in $25, Button calls.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($50.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.75)

Turn: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($50.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.75)

River: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($50.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $50.75)

Results:
Final pot: $50.75

Hand 6: Had a good 100 hands against this guy. Seems like a tight player. VP$IP 19.63% PFR 16.82% Total AF 2.80

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $69.35
UTG+1: $30
CanSpoilU: $32.95
Button: $70.90
SB: $22.65
BB: $48.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) CanSpoilU is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG, folds, UTG+1 (poster) checks, CanSpoilU raises to $2, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CanSpoilU bets $5, BB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($16.25, 2 players)
BB checks, CanSpoilU checks.

River: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($16.25, 2 players)
BB bets $20, CanSpoilU calls.

Results:
Final pot: $56.25

Hand 7: Yet another KK hand. No real read on this guy either. After 15 hands he had VP$IP of 33%. PFR 22%.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $60.25
UTG+1: $48
CO: $88.95
Button: $51.15
CanSpoilU: $51.30
BB: $57.55

Pre-flop: (6 players) CanSpoilU is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $1, CO calls, Button raises to $6, CanSpoilU raises to $30, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($67.5, 2 players)
CanSpoilU is all-in $21.3, UTG+1 calls all-in $18.
Uncalled bets: $3.3 returned to CanSpoilU.

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($103.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $103.5)

River: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($103.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $103.5)

Results:
Final pot: $103.5

mosuavea

01-10-2007, 01:59 PM

Way too many hands in one post. Break them down to what you feel were the worst played an make individual posts and you will get a much better set of replies.

Obviously, you need to be folding KK there in the first hand... /sarcasm

CanSpoilU

01-10-2007, 02:12 PM

I apologize for that (too many hands). If nobody else responds... i'll break them down into separate threads.

I just didn't want to flood the forum with seven threads from me at the same time. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Esmerelda

01-10-2007, 02:28 PM

Hand 1: I am not folding KK without a solid read on the guy. Push. Whatever happens make a note and move on. C'est la vie.

Esmerelda

01-10-2007, 02:31 PM

Hand 2: I raise this against most villains but with position I call against a fair number of tight players.

I don't push this unless I know villain likes to gambol with AK and sometimes worse.

Esmerelda

01-10-2007, 02:35 PM

Hand 3: this is the way it goes down if I am playing. I am not thrilled about his shove but odds are too good to consider a fold.

Esmerelda

01-10-2007, 02:39 PM

Hands 5 and 7: See hand 1, in the second one u could wait to see what he does on the flop but meh make his queens commit before an ace spoils your action.

Hands 4 and 6 are more complicated u should post them separately.

MadMike

01-10-2007, 02:48 PM

Hands 1&5 are fine at NL25. Range for the villian is not just AA. At worst it's AA-QQ and at NL25 often stuff you wouldn't even believe. You're a thinking player and see what you did in hand 2.

Hand 2 I don't like the shove. I'd flat call the SB RR and see a flop. Some might just do a standard re-raise to 18-20 but I don't really like that much. This one is open for debate I think.

Hands 3,4,6 & 7 look standard to me.

subzero

01-10-2007, 03:31 PM

Hands 1 & 5:
Some players never lay down kings preflop because you see weaker hands often enough at this level. But a 4-bet preflop is very likely to be AA. Unless I have some history with this player, I can find a fold here.

Hand 2:
4-bet all-in means you're probably up against at least KK (4-to-1 dog). You're only a slight favorite if he has AK. 22/18 are numbers for a solid player, not a maniac (though 20 hands aren't enough). If he was 38/20 over 300 hands, then I lean towards calling.

Hand 3:
Against this shorty, I happily push preflop. Solid players don't let their stacks get that low. Shorties tend to gamble (double up or go home), so they have a wider range. Ignore the stats. 9 hands is not enough.

Hand 4:
I don't mind the cbet since you say he's passive and you're heads up. You should also look at his Went to showdown %/fold to flop bet numbers. Those stats. help with cbet decisions. Given villain's stack size, I can't see myself laying this one down.

Hand 6:
Tough decision. With those stats., I think he's got the boat. I think the river overbet wants to get called. I'm leaning towards folding.

Hand 7:
Button could be raising to isolate the PFR. Villain's range is wider here than in Hands 1 & 5. I think the raise preflop is fine.

CanSpoilU

01-10-2007, 06:02 PM

Thanks for the suggestions:

Here were the results:

Hand 1: Villan had AA (I lose)
Hand 2: Villan had AA (I lose)
Hand 3: Villan had AKo (I win)
Hand 4: Villan had Ac6c (I lose)
Hand 5: Villan had AA (I lose)
Hand 6: Villan had AQo (I lose - good read subzero)
Hand 7: Villan had QQ (I win)

I can see my stupid error in hand 2. Push was way overboard IMO.

But for all these times my Kings got cracked by Aces... how do you read that the opponent has aces? Kings are VERY tough to lay down. Against a really tight player with plenty of history... its a little easier to lay down.

But man the one time I got dealt the kings right away so I had no reads. I just aren't sure how you handle those players.

I have 1589 hands played. Dealt KK 12 times and I am only up 2.55BB per hand with Kings (not great). I was dealt QQ 16 times and I am actually DOWN 1.27BB per hand with the Queens. Dealt JJ 9 times and I am DOWN 4.43BBs (ouch).

I still have a lot to learn I suppose.

Quester

01-10-2007, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But for all these times my Kings got cracked by Aces... how do you read that the opponent has aces? Kings are VERY tough to lay down. Against a really tight player with plenty of history... its a little easier to lay down.

[/ QUOTE ]

We've had quite a few threads on KK v. possible AA lately.

The overwhelming consensus is that folding KK preflop at this level is something you should never consider.

CanSpoilU

01-10-2007, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We've had quite a few threads on KK v. possible AA lately.

The overwhelming consensus is that folding KK preflop at this level is something you should never consider.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I felt as well... which is why I didn't fold them and I stayed agressive pre-flop so I wouldn't get drawn out.

I just didn't expect to get them cracked by the rockets this often though. Oh well... I guess its just a bad swing and hopefully I will eventually get paid off.

What about live? If this was live in a poker room (KK/AA)... do you handle it differently? I know it helps to have a read... but what if somebody doesn't have a read (player is new to the table or you haven't see what he has raised with previously). Tough call I guess. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Quester

01-10-2007, 06:21 PM

Definitely a bad swing.

I'd never even fathom folding Kings preflop live. But I've only played 1/2NL live. At 1/2 live you're playing against arrogant kids and retired people so folding kings would probably be an even bigger mistake than it is online.

Smilin'

01-10-2007, 06:23 PM

Hand 1: I'd raise a bit less, maybe to $3-4 or so. But I get it all in preflop too.

Hand 2: I don't like the overbet too much, barring a read. You pretty much fold out worse hands and get better hands to call. Plus you're wasting position by getting it all in preflop. I call the reraise, reevaluate on the flop. (On the A high flop, I'd probably check-fold.)

Hand 3: Looks OK to me vs. a short stack. I maybe raise a little less (to $6 or so), but whatever.

Hand 4: I thinking checking the flop would be reasonable too, but I'm fine with the bet. The turn card is tricky, but I like your line.

Hand 5: This is Hand 1 again, isn't it?

Hand 6: This seems OK to me, though I think the river call might be thin. You could also consider checking behind on the flop, since you're WA/WB--maybe get some money from a Q. If it's checked again, though, I'd bet the turn.

Hand 7: I'd raise a bit less preflop--no need to scare off the customers unnecessarily. $16 to $20 seems fine to me. Obviously it's good to get it all in on the flop.

So basically I think it's all OK except Hand 2. Maybe raising a little less would get worse hands to call more often, but I don't think that's a major leak.

bmk67

01-10-2007, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely a bad swing.

I'd never even fathom folding Kings preflop live. But I've only played 1/2NL live. At 1/2 live you're playing against arrogant kids and retired people so folding kings would probably be an even bigger mistake than it is online.

[/ QUOTE ]

My experience playing 1/2 live is somewhat limited, but where I play, it's pretty much all arrogant kids - and I'll go to the felt preflop with KK in 1/2 live against them any day of the week.

IMHO, the 1/2 live game I play is easier to beat than 25NL online.

silly_monkey

01-10-2007, 07:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the 1/2 live game I play is easier to beat than play money online.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Quester

01-10-2007, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the 1/2 live game I play is easier to beat than play money home games.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bmk67

01-11-2007, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the 1/2 live game I play is easier to beat than play money online.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha, yeah you did.

Best quote heard at my 1/2 game: "You can't beat this game by playing tight.", with 8 heads (not mine) nodding in agreement, as I drag the pot.

Splossy

01-11-2007, 02:42 PM

Subzero's analysis is great and turns out to be pretty good too. Far more useful than "never fold KK preflop".

CanSpoilU

01-11-2007, 02:57 PM

More JJ woes today. This hand pissed me off because I had a feeling this guy was a crappy player. My 10th hand on the table so I didn't have a solid read. But after about 50 hands... he turned out to be a total donk and unfortunately I didn't get dealt the right cards to take his money later (although some other people did).

I would imagine I played this right? Could I have played it better?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
CanSpoilU: $22.40
UTG+1: $24.65
CO: $29.85
Button: $19.15
SB: $17.35
BB: $8.45

Pre-flop: (6 players) CanSpoilU is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
CanSpoilU raises to $1, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2.35, 2 players)
CanSpoilU bets $2, Button calls.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($6.35, 2 players)
CanSpoilU bets $4, Button calls.

River: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($14.35, 2 players)
CanSpoilU checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: $14.35
CanSpoilU showed Jd Jc He had Th Js Grrrrr

Phenomenon

01-11-2007, 08:09 PM

I would have played it exactly the same. Looks like you got rivered.

poisonxfree

01-11-2007, 08:53 PM

Recent JJ hand looks completely standard.

bmk67

01-12-2007, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I would imagine I played this right? Could I have played it better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard.

Variance is a wicked mistress.