squeeze

[thedustbustr]

UTG has solid stats, 21/18/3
MP is a calling machine, 60/31/2, chases two outers etc.
BTN is 25/8 or something.


I expect MP to come along for the ride when I squeeze but thats perfectly OK since he will come along with lots of trash.

then the wrong person came along AND i get a pretty bad flop, i'd have preferred something that would make a pocket pair fold, so i decide to put him on AK and make a beefy bet.

comments on preflop, flop bet, and flop bet sizing?

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
MP: $51.45
CO: $69.70
BTN: $38.65
Hero (SB): $116.45
BB: $38.7
UTG: $46.20

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Ahttp://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($0.75, 6 players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.50</font>, MP calls $1.50, CO folds, BTN calls $1.50, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $6.50, MP folds, BTN folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif 7http://legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif ($19.5, 2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $15</font>

[Marshall28]

you "decided to put him on AK" ... because? ... you needed a reason to make it convenient for you to bet.... do you see the problem with this reasoning?

2nd ... you cant put on a squeeze on 3 people. there needs to be a raise, a call, then your raise would be the squeeze.

and you did it with about one of the worst hands to do it with. i think the only hand worse to reraise in this situation would be KQ. i guarantee you are crushed on this board. your only hope is an ace, and if it does it, it will scare away his KK or QQ, and his AK will destroy you.

[Esmerelda]

If UTG is solid and MP is a calling station then I am not making this 3bet light with ATo, especially not from SB. I am looking for weak tighties for this move.

With two callers I am probably chalking this up to experience and checking but can't really say it's a horrible play since this should be a poor flop for everybody. With a station involved I would have to have a solid table image to try it tho.

[Marshall28]

esmerelda i think tries to disagree with me on purpose ... i wouldnt listen to her advice though, TBH.

[Sir Winalot]

I wouldn't try this oop, especially if you're relatively sure MP will come along. I'd say UTG's range is mostly pp's, something like QQ-22 and maybe AK/AQ. If he's solid enough, I think you can fold out whiffed overs, underpairs and probably 88-TT, but I doubt QQ/JJ will go anywhere. Personally I wouldn't c-bet here, but I think your bet size is good to do the work, it represents AA-KK quite well IMO.

Edit: fixed some typos.

Edit 2: Actually, now that I think of it, the squeeze isn't that bad after all. UTG should have a relatively wide opening range even from ep and both callers are probably calling a 3bb raise with some absolute junk. I think the raise should just be slightly bigger to get the job done and because we're oop, maybe to 9 or even 10.

[Racketeer]

I would prefer to have some other type of hand that has some value after the flop, suited connector or a pocket pair for when you get called instead of a weak A. I think when you get called and flop an A your still in trouble a lot. I wouldn't do this oop either as said earlier. The size of the flop bet seems alright for representing the big PP, I don't know if I would have the balls to bet that flop though.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
you "decided to put him on AK" ... because? ... you needed a reason to make it convenient for you to bet.... do you see the problem with this reasoning?

[/ QUOTE ]
marshall it was a joke

[thedustbustr]

es, teh station folded preflop.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]

2nd ... you cant put on a squeeze on 3 people. there needs to be a raise, a call, then your raise would be the squeeze.

and you did it with about one of the worst hands to do it with. i think the only hand worse to reraise in this situation would be KQ. i guarantee you are crushed on this board. your only hope is an ace, and if it does it, it will scare away his KK or QQ, and his AK will destroy you.

[/ QUOTE ]
ok im sorry if i used the wrong jargon, forgive me. but it looks to me like there was a blind bet, then a raise, then 2 calls, then i raised. so im hardly seeing the difference between your definition and mine. but whatever.

as for the hand, i did it because i have 30% equity against a pocket pair (UTG's most likely hand to call with), and if he has me dominated well he's also only 30% to hit, and im cbetting a lot (not all the time). if i spike an ace on the flop, i KNOW that i am possibly dominated and will procede with caution.

"KK or QQ, and his AK will destroy you. " im presuming his UTG opening range is greater than this. the whole point of preflop is to make him fold, not to extract vs top 1.5% of hands. and his ak is destroying nothing, because i know how to fold.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldnt listen to her advice though, TBH.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow dude

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
I would prefer to have some other type of hand that has some value after the flop, suited connector or a pocket pair for when you get called instead of a weak A. I think when you get called and flop an A your still in trouble a lot. I wouldn't do this oop either as said earlier. The size of the flop bet seems alright for representing the big PP, I don't know if I would have the balls to bet that flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

AT has more equity against pretty much his entire calling range than 67s except when we are against AK

oop is not too bad because i wont be playing a big pot - i either cbet or i dont, and im not felting an ace, any value i see in this play comes from folding out the two nits preflop, not postflop. since i will likely be checking an ace and maybe putting in a river bet, i dont need position to get the information. if i check an ace and he bets, i fold, simple as that.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't try this oop, especially if you're relatively sure MP will come along. I'd say UTG's range is mostly pp's, something like QQ-22 and maybe AK/AQ. If he's solid enough, I think you can fold out whiffed overs, underpairs and probably 88-TT, but I doubt QQ/JJ will go anywhere. Personally I wouldn't c-bet here, but I think your bet size is good to do the work, it represents AA-KK quite well IMO.

Edit: fixed some typos.

Edit 2: Actually, now that I think of it, the squeeze isn't that bad after all. UTG should have a relatively wide opening range even from ep and both callers are probably calling a 3bb raise with some absolute junk. I think the raise should just be slightly bigger to get the job done and because we're oop, maybe to 9 or even 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i talked about being oop in my response to someone above, see that.

why is mp coming along a problem? hes a payoff idiot, i will value bet him if i flop something, check down and play hot cold equity if not. his calling range &lt; ATo

"I think you can fold out whiffed overs, underpairs and probably 88-TT, but I doubt QQ/JJ will go anywhere"
this was my reasoning for the bet size - i figured bet half pot and 88-TT doesnt fold. JJ+ is probably raising no matter what. if i check, i forefeit the pot, because after i check 88 is calling down. +i will lose to AK-AJ at showdown.

[ama0330]

I think the preflop squeeze is pretty sexy but I don't really understand the lead, because I feel like 99% of UTG's preflop calling range will look you up on this board. I'd see AK/AQ even calling you here, and I doubt that TT+ is going to fold the overpair. If this were me I would just check fold the flop - for me squeezing is a predominantly preflop thing unless I'm doing it in position.

Also, I'd like to squeeze with a hand a little worse than this. Given that you are OOP, this play is essentially a bluff, so you need to prove that whatever hand you are doing it with would make more value with the squeeze play than any other play. What I mean is that with 62o, you're never getting any value out of completing and seeing a flop. This hand probably isnt the best example of that given that completing ATo in a 4 way raised pot OOP isn't the greatest value play ever but I think the point is valid.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
for me squeezing is a predominantly preflop thing unless I'm doing it in position

[/ QUOTE ]
i mostly agree with this, pre does not imply a flop bet at all

but your 62o example doesnt make much sense, you seem to be saying that if you use 62o you wont be put in a tough flop decision? to me its about giving myself backup equity against hands that call - with 62o if my pf doesnt fold it, thats it, im done, no backup. but with an ace (kicker irrelevant, A2=AT here) I will crack a pocket pair a certain % of the time, depending how many streets i manage to see. this fallback significantly increases the EV of the preflop move.

not to mention I get to selectively try to steal the pot on the flop if I so choose.

[Racketeer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would prefer to have some other type of hand that has some value after the flop, suited connector or a pocket pair for when you get called instead of a weak A. I think when you get called and flop an A your still in trouble a lot. I wouldn't do this oop either as said earlier. The size of the flop bet seems alright for representing the big PP, I don't know if I would have the balls to bet that flop though.

[/ QUOTE ]

AT has more equity against pretty much his entire calling range than 67s except when we are against AK

oop is not too bad because i wont be playing a big pot - i either cbet or i dont, and im not felting an ace, any value i see in this play comes from folding out the two nits preflop, not postflop. since i will likely be checking an ace and maybe putting in a river bet, i dont need position to get the information. if i check an ace and he bets, i fold, simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this play has more EV when it is done with hands that can win a big pot post flop when called. I just don't see A10 winning very many hands after the flop. I'm sure this play is +EV I just think there is more EV to be had with hands that are better after the flop when called. Just because A10 has more equity than 67s doesn't mean that it will be better at extracting money.
I see what you are saying about being oop not being as important.

[ama0330]

My point with 62o was basically that you lose nothing by having your squeeze play fail because 62o has no inherent value as a starting hand, whereas ATo does have high card value and as you say, a small edge over a PP if you catch an ace. So there is that blurring between the preflop squeeze OOP, which is a pure bluff, versus a value play, which is playing ATo some other way in order to extract value from the small edge offered by your hole cards.

Ok that made really little sense, but put it this way. The exact same play with AA is a value play, you want to build the pot and extract value. The play with 62o is a bluff, your hand has no value and you want everyone to fold. The play with ATo is basically a "bluff with backup" - you want everyone to fold but you have some leverage if you flop an ace. The reason I said I would want to make this play with less of a hand is that I was unsure if this play was the best way to extract the starting value from this particular hand without turning it into a bluff, which is actually very difficult to do.

But regardless I do agree with what you are saying, its good to make the move with something to fall back on rather than not.