AKo <-- should I just fold it pre-flop? [Archive]

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MFpoker

01-09-2007, 02:08 PM

I must give this hand too much credit because it's one of my biggest net loss hands. I'd like to share a couple hands and get your input on how I could have done things differently and won (or lost less).

Hand #1
Villian is 26.21/1.94/0.43 after 101 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($58.75)
Hero ($59.05)
MP1 ($14.90)
MP2 ($88.05)
CO ($51.65)
Button ($78.30)
SB ($58.05)
BB ($10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 4 folds, SB calls $1.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.50) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, SB calls $3.

Turn: ($10.50) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5, SB calls $5.

River: ($20.50) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $20.50

Results in white below: 
SB has 6c 6s (two pair, sixes and fours).
Hero has As Kh (one pair, fours).
Outcome: SB wins $20.50. 

Hand #2
Villian is 50.0/4.17/2.00 after 25 hands

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($18.10)
SB ($29.50)
Hero ($51.25)
UTG ($67.35)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to $2, SB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $1.5, Hero raises to $3, SB calls $1.50.

Turn: ($10) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero calls $2.

River: ($14) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3.

Final Pot: $20

Results in white below: 
SB has Kh 4h (flush, king high).
Hero has Ks Ah (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: SB wins $20.

Keys Myaths

01-09-2007, 02:11 PM

Hand 1: Check behind on the turn most times. If he's calling on a flop like that, he most likely has you beat.

Hand 2: You deserved that. STOP MINRAISING!

Unknown Soldier

01-09-2007, 02:11 PM

1: why are you betting the turn, what do you think villain has?

2: what are you trying to accomplish by that min-raise?

Fore59

01-09-2007, 02:15 PM

No, you shouldn't fold it preflop.

Hand 1: The guy's numbers seem to indicate he's a complete call station. Wait until you get a hand to bet into this guy. Guys like him are not going to fold.

Hand 2: Keys is exactly right. You need to raise to about $6. Make him pay to draw to that flush.

LateFlag

01-09-2007, 02:15 PM

Hand 1: I would have bet a little more on the flop. Then I feel pretty comfortable giving up when called.

Hand 2: I raise more on the flop, probably bumping it $5 or $6 or so. As played I want to raise the turn.

Also, don't post results.

4_2_it

01-09-2007, 02:15 PM

Hand 1 -- You are either WA/WB on the turn. Check and take a free card. I wouldn't bother bluffing at the river becuase every PP is looking you up.

Hand 2 -- Raise the flop to $8. Then you can check the turn behind and draw to teh nuts and plan to call a small river bet.

LateFlag

01-09-2007, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 -- Raise the flop to $8. Then you can check the turn behind and draw to teh nuts and plan to call a small river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question about the turn play on this one. My inclination is to get my chips in here, and the reason why I think that is because 1) I might very well have the best hand and 2) if I'm behind, I've got 9 outs to a nut hand that isn't getting much additional action if it hits.

Does this reasoning have any validity, or am I way off base?

JustChillin

01-09-2007, 02:21 PM

1. either check the turn or if you have a good read, pot it, betting less doesnt accomplish much

2. raise to like 6-7 over his 1.50 bet

MFpoker

01-09-2007, 02:31 PM

ya the pre-flop re-raises are something i definitely need to work on.

as far as the second hand, I was convinced this guy was just trying to push me around because he was so loose and moderately aggressive.

as far as posting results, i've seen many people post results hidden in white colored text. is this still not OK?

LateFlag

01-09-2007, 02:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
as far as posting results, i've seen many people post results hidden in white colored text. is this still not OK?

[/ QUOTE ]

When people can see the results of the hand, it tends to bias their responses, so it's usually a good idea to leave them out.

Similarly, if there's one particular action you have a question about, it's usually recommended that you cut off the hand history at that particular point. Otherwise people sometimes get results-oriented when they see the action on later streets.

rael

01-09-2007, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question about the turn play on this one. My inclination is to get my chips in here, and the reason why I think that is because 1) I might very well have the best hand and 2) if I'm behind, I've got 9 outs to a nut hand that isn't getting much additional action if it hits.

Does this reasoning have any validity, or am I way off base?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the question here is what hands do you think he'll call a turn bet/raise with that you beat? Maybe a weak A, but he's probably dumping pretty much everything else. I think you're better off calling his smallish bets (or checking turn, calling river if you raise the flop).

Esmerelda

01-09-2007, 02:52 PM

Hand 1: I think this is fine.

I check behind on the turn here more often than not because the draw isn't very wet. Still the str8 is out there and a second barrel definitely works well against some villains with weak pairs, just don't make it a habit. Take the free card and collect on the river when you hit.

Hand 2:

Raise that wet flop to about 8.5, you hit big and that board is soggy.

As played the turn and river are fine.

silly_monkey

01-09-2007, 02:55 PM

Grunchie..

Hand 1: Why are you betting the turn here? I check behind here almost always against that player. If you are going to bet, I'd make it more like 2/3 to 3/4 pot.

Hand 2: I raise to $2.50 preflop. Min-raise on the flop is weak sauce. Make it more like $6. Calling down his small bets is meh...

keikiwai

01-09-2007, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My inclination is to get my chips in here, and the reason why I think that is because 1) I might very well have the best hand and 2) if I'm behind, I've got 9 outs to a nut hand that isn't getting much additional action if it hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he calls your trun ai, you def. do NOT have the best hand.

and you'r not getting odds to hit on the river if you're ai, even if he's only got 2 pair

AND if he does have a flush, you do NOT have 9 outs, you have 7

KurtSF

01-09-2007, 02:59 PM

grunch

First hand you can check behind on the turn and check/fold the river unimproved. If you think villain is tricky you could call a small bet from him on the river to pick off a bluff, but the action seems to indicate he's not drawing and you're behind, so I would not advise it.

Second hand you need to raise more on the flop. Make it $5 or $6. If he calls a real bet, then takes the lead on the turn after the straights and flushes filled, you can fold confidently... unless of course he puts out a pussy bet like that $2 into a $10 pot (ugh) in which case you can call with your nut flush draw and fold the river unimproved. It was the weak flop raise that sank you on this hand.

How'd I do?

$0.02

4_2_it

01-09-2007, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 -- Raise the flop to $8. Then you can check the turn behind and draw to teh nuts and plan to call a small river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a question about the turn play on this one. My inclination is to get my chips in here, and the reason why I think that is because 1) I might very well have the best hand and 2) if I'm behind, I've got 9 outs to a nut hand that isn't getting much additional action if it hits.

Does this reasoning have any validity, or am I way off base?

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain is ahead, I would expect a turn c/r AI which hero cannot call. I'd rather get to a cheap showdown. Checking the turn is about pot control and protecting a hand that has showdown value, not building a pot.

What worse hands do think will check call both a turn and river bet? I'd rather try to get the last bet in on the river in this situation. Most Ax hand would call a 1/2 pot bet.

bmk67

01-09-2007, 03:39 PM

(grunching)

Hand 1 - I take a WA/WB line here. Keep the pot small and try to get a cheap showdown. I would check behind on the turn and fold to a river bet.

Hand 2 - You have to raise this flop more. You offered villain great pot odds to draw to his flush. Make a flop call incorrect by not offering correct pot odds (i.e. make it a pot-sized raise), and by not offering correct implied odds (by not paying him off if he hits).

In hand 2 you got lucky in that villain didn't punish your mistake on the flop by making you pay dearly on the turn and river.

threadkiller

01-09-2007, 03:56 PM

newbie grunching:

Hand 1: Against a player with a smaller opening range, I would check the turn - the only hand you're currently beating is probably AQ. Now if you said the guy was 55/20/3, I'd probably bet the turn.

Hand 2: Why a minraise? Why not raise the size of the pot there? At 8.5-1.5, you've given a wide range of hands (any two hearts, any two >= 9) odds to call.