Did I get the right amount of value from him? (NL50 flopped nuts)

[michaelantoi]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $50
UTG+1: $39.80
Hero: $59.55
Button: $39.05
SB: $80.90
BB: $109.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.25</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($7.25, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($7.25, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $10</font>, SB folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($27.25, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $10</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Results:
Final pot: $47.25

[shoxbb6]

Bet the flop $5-6.
Raise the turn to $12.5
Bet at least 1/2 pot on the river. $15 is a good amount.

[gir]

What do you think he has? If he has a king, you're getting him all in. If he has AQ or AT, you're making a decent amount.

I bet the flop here. If you're only going to build the pot with your bad hands, you're not going to make a lot.

$5 flop = $17.25 on the turn.
(assuming a check) $10 turn = $37.25 on river
(assuming a check) push river for &lt;$20 he has left.

[AKQJ10]

Perhaps it's beside the point, but how do you figure tens full to be the nuts?

[michaelantoi]

Yes it wasn't the nuts but i'm assuming I have the best of it here.

I put him on something like AJ - I dont think he caught any piece of the flop.

I didn't have any reads on the table yet but I had no table image. I didn't want to get them to fold the flop here.

I was betting the turn regardless.

I know I should cbet the flop regardless of a monster or air, but I feel like I am pushing out hands here by betting anything on the flop.

Opinions?

[ama0330]

Obv you dont have the nuts but its "nuts enough".

Have you been cbetting a lot? I'd bet the flop if you have, cause nobody will put you on a king and Ace-x type hands and smaller PP's will look you up.

As played bet the river for more. I like 17-20.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I should cbet the flop regardless of a monster or air, but I feel like I am pushing out hands here by betting anything on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's backtrack.

With tens full, do you want to play a big pot or a little pot? A big pot, obviously.

How are you going to get there? The only way you get there is if an opponent has a king. Then you can build a huge pot indeed. AA, QQ, JJ might give you some action, but they're probably going to get scared off before it gets too big since the pair on board is a face card.

Moreover, since a king is the only hand that pays you off, your hand could use some protection against it. Any king has four outs on the turn and seven on the river. (You have one out to redraw.)

I know it feels wrong to bet the flop because 90% of the time no one likes the flop and you take it down unopposed. But I think conventional wisdom is that for every time you lose some value from an ace or a bluff bet on the turn, you're losing your remote shot at taking a stack.

Maybe at uSNL it's more marginal because people really do play Ax like this -- lead PSB, call minraise (which screams "I have trips"), call PSB on the river. Even so, you got very lucky that a three-outer spiked to give your opponent this hand. I don't think he plays a turn jack the same way, but who knows?

So remote shot that you get this much value from a mediocre hand, or remote shot that you get a stack from Kx. I'd still rather play it fast and get the stack. Especially since you continuation bet often -- AJ might decide you don't have the king {"Everyone slowplays trips!") and look you up long enough to catch the ace.

[silly_monkey]

Bet flop please. Checking this flop makes baby kittens sad. Bet it and pray that he has a K. If he has nothing, you're probably not going to win a big pot anyway.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
I know I should cbet the flop regardless of a monster or air, but I feel like I am pushing out hands here by betting anything on the flop.

Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is a free card that improves villain's hand likely to bust hero? The only way you are getting any money out villain is if he has a K on the flop. Just bet. Villain is not folding a K here and he isn't calling a turn bet without a K or better (though he may occasionally bet the turn with a worse hand).

[keikiwai]

bet flop for reasons described above

you have to build the pot, start early

also, no one believes you have anything on paired flops, so you'll often get a little money from loose calls, but if you check flop, and then wake up, you're not getting anything.... but basically build the pot

also, you obviously haven't seen the pot shipped the other direction when villain flips over K4 (well ok so, KT if you're only talking about the flop), you do not have the nuts, you have a strong hand

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
also, you obviously haven't seen the pot shipped the other direction when villain flips over K4 (well ok so, KT if you're only talking about the flop), you do not have the nuts, you have a strong hand

[/ QUOTE ]

But K4 is probably going to slowplay along with you, thinking he's a winner. So this wouldn't be all that rare: check-check on the flop. Turn 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Bet-call. River 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. check-1/2 pot bet-????. You're going to be very sad, but have to call.

Granted, it's only four outs on the flop, but it's not insignificant. And since it's the only hand that's going to pay you off much, and since it's probably going to check two rounds (because donks love to win a $3 pot with trips -- ooh, feel the deception!) , you want to build your big pot.

I would bet 1/2 to 1/3 on pot (one reason to sometimes CB 1/2 pot, or block for 1/2 pot with a draw). Then overbet the turn, because any hand that called along will be pretty good. Suspicious minds will even think you're bluffing them off of their trips.

Check-call if the board double pairs. If some plausible kicker for the king hits, like a queen or jack, grit your teeth and get the money in anyway.