Another FD Hand: Can I really give up?

[SeanyBullets]

I've dropped about 5 BIs today and 3 of them have been to flushes. For some reason, despite all the calling down, I can't make myself give them credit. This IS major leak. Agreed?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
4 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
Hero: $29.75
Button: $29
SB: $24.85
BB: $131.55

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2.1, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $2.1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $7.5</font>, BB calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($17.1, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $17.1</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $34.2</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $4.15</font>.
Uncalled bets: $12.95 returned to BB.

River: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($59.6, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $59.6)


Results:
Final pot: $59.6
<font color="#ffffff">BB showed 3c 9c</font>
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed Ad Ah</font>

[barryc83]

I don't know. As bad as this may sound I will def. check the turn here a decent bit. If I bet I make it $12 and fold to a raise. You're gonna see a flush here a lot bc I think a K would push the flop a lot.

Think about it. Why did you bet the turn? Certainly not for value. Maybe to charge him if he has 1 club in his hand but that 4th club won't hit that often. You're basically bluffing when your hand has some showdown value. I'd check and call a modest bet, but if he pots it or pushes fold.

I still have the same problem about calling down and am working on it. I generally play overpairs like the nuts against unknowns, but on this board you don't beat a whole lot that he'd be betting with.

[Unknown Soldier]

i like checking the turn for pot control

[SeanyBullets]

Is everything up the turn about standard? No limpers so a 4x raise PF. Was the raise too small on the flop? Should I have gone $8.5-$9?

What about a 1/2 pot bet on the turn as a blocking bet then fold to the raise/push?

[barryc83]

Everything up until the turn was perfect IMO, all the bet sizing was fine. You can't really call the turn a blocking bet bc you will still possibly be facng a river bet. A blocking bet is one you make on the river OOP so as the set your own price for showdown. For example, your hand has showdown value and you lead river for 1/2 pot so as to both get value from villain when ahead and lose the least when behind.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
What about a 1/2 pot bet on the turn as a blocking bet then fold to the raise/push?

[/ QUOTE ]

not deep enough, you'de be pot comitted

I think up to the turn is standard

[DenGreek]

By the way you are thinking (i.e. villain can raise flop with FD) you should have considered 3-betting the flop All-in. If you don't 3-bet the flop, then checking the turn is automatic for a club.

[SeanyBullets]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way you are thinking (i.e. villain can raise flop with FD) you should have considered 3-betting the flop All-in. If you don't 3-bet the flop, then checking the turn is automatic for a club.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was first to act.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
i like checking the turn for pot control

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this approaching the point where the pot is too big to attempt to control it? At some point "protecting" our hand has to become first priority. Not sure where that point is though. It's a problem that has been bugging me a lot lately.

edit: for some reason I thought we were first to act. That changes my thinking on this one.

[Unknown Soldier]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this approaching the point where the pot is too big to attempt to control it? At some point "protecting" our hand has to become first priority.

[/ QUOTE ]

imo this is one of the hardest conflicts in your decision making process to overcome in NL; pot control vs protecting our hand.

you might be right, problem is it's either all in or check

[Kasane]

Reads are kinda important on this hand. Betting turn or checking for pot control is really dependent on your villain. It doesn't matter if your read is 100% correct, just that it leads you somewhere. If it's 70% accurate, then you'll -- on average -- make better choices in these spots. I would guess a b/f is in order (obviously less than a psb with stacks) as you don't have the flushy A. But I'd change that up in an instant if I knew anything...

And... what's their opinion of you?

[SeanyBullets]

[ QUOTE ]
Reads are kinda important on this hand. Betting turn or checking for pot control is really dependent on your villain. It doesn't matter if your read is 100% correct, just that it leads you somewhere. If it's 70% accurate, then you'll -- on average -- make better choices in these spots. I would guess a b/f is in order (obviously less than a psb with stacks) as you don't have the flushy A. But I'd change that up in an instant if I knew anything...

And... what's their opinion of you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a TAG. C-betting around 65% of the time and betting for value.

[jk1986]

[ QUOTE ]
Reads are very important on every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

[Smilin']

I like checking behind on the turn, becuase otherwise you have to play for stacks or make a weak-looking bet. Then you can call a moderate bet on a non-club river, especially if you're seen as an aggressive player, (You've taken the c-bet-that-failed line), and see showdown without getting it all in.

I think if it's checked to you again on the river, a smallish bet/fold is reasonable.

Check behind on the turn for pot control. Hard decision, I think calling is correct, considering what allready is in the pot, he could have a made flush or A /images/graemlins/club.gif K IMO.