[PS $200] Jacks - I am Teh Suck

[NYCNative]

I don't like anything I did in this hand... Please scold me...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($33.45)
SB ($29.70)
Hero ($193)
UTG ($257.85)
UTG+1 ($188.70)
MP1 ($72.75)
MP2 ($109.60)
MP3 ($176.10)
CO ($63.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $8</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($17) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $10</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $60</font>, Hero calls $35.

Turn: ($137) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets $41.6 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $41.60.

River: ($220.20) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $220.20

[Dan Bitel]

I prefer to lead the flop than c/r. When you do check raise, fold to the 3bet. DEFINITELY fold to the turn push...I dont care what odds you are getting!!!!!

The call preflop was correct tho /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT: when you do lead....fold to a raise

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
The call preflop was correct tho

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't even like that. I think I should reraise there since there are a LOT of hands I am ahead of but since I will be out of position, I won't be in a great place to figure it out.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The call preflop was correct tho

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't even like that. I think I should reraise there since there are a LOT of hands I am ahead of but since I will be out of position, I won't be in a great place to figure it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

in full ring reraising jacks out of the blinds is just asking to make a mistake in a very big pot later on.

Don't check raise oop with a hand like that, you just created a huge pot oop with a marginal hand. Fold to the 3bet, if you call that fold to the push

[NYCNative]

Okay, can I really fold to the turn push. Yeah I hate the card but the odds I am getting I cannot fold this... He can be making this play with tens, possibly, and I'm gtting nearly 4 1/2 to one with one card to come.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, can I really fold to the turn push. Yeah I hate the card but the odds I am getting I cannot fold this... He can be making this play with tens, possibly, and I'm gtting nearly 4 1/2 to one with one card to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you can, maybe you can't, it's not really important. If you call getting those odds it's never a big mistake but that's not what you should be thinking about in this hand.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
in full ring reraising jacks out of the blinds is just asking to make a mistake in a very big pot later on.

[/ QUOTE ]Isn't that kinda weak-tight? I am only scared of three hands here and Jacks are way above the range for what villain could be holding. Jacks are tough. I'll agree I can't play them like they're Kings but I don't want to play them like they're 8s either.

In this hand if I reraise PF I should fold to a three-bet (yeah, I know my play above says I wouldn't; I am talking about what I should do) and if cold-called I can evaluate after CBing the flop depending on reads, the presense or lack of overcards and whatever odds I might be getting.

I tried to define my hand with a check-raise as an overpair and that was stupid. I think defining it PF is the way to go. Is it really +EV to play Jacks for set value in this case?

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in full ring reraising jacks out of the blinds is just asking to make a mistake in a very big pot later on.

[/ QUOTE ]Isn't that kinda weak-tight? I am only scared of three hands here and Jacks are way above the range for what villain could be holding. Jacks are tough. I'll agree I can't play them like they're Kings but I don't want to play them like they're 8s either.

In this hand if I reraise PF I should fold to a three-bet (yeah, I know my play above says I wouldn't; I am talking about what I should do) and if cold-called I can evaluate after CBing the flop depending on reads, the presense or lack of overcards and whatever odds I might be getting.

I tried to define my hand with a check-raise as an overpair and that was stupid. I think defining it PF is the way to go. Is it really +EV to play Jacks for set value in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

not reraising pf does not mean you'll be playing them weakly after the flop. It just means you'll play them agressively in a smaller pot.
You showed strength post-flop and (possibly) lost the hand so now you're second guessing yourself, telling villain your hand is better than his by creating a big pot oop is not something you should be looking forward to.

What happens if the flop comes Axx and your opponent raises your psb on the flop? You're just asking to get a big pot stolen from you or paying off a better hand for your stack.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe you can, maybe you can't, it's not really important. If you call getting those odds it's never a big mistake but that's not what you should be thinking about in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree it's not the important thing in this hand, but since I was told to fold twice at that point, I needed to address it. I think folding there makes my bad play on previous streets worse.

I did not like cold-calling PF (though some said I should have), I did not like my flop play at all, but by the turn I felt priced into a call.

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
not reraising pf does not mean you'll be playing them weakly after the flop. It just means you'll play them agressively in a smaller pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Please show me a line on how to play these aggressively postflop without playing them aggressively preflop. Do you mean simply leading any non-overcard flop? How do I respond if cold-called? Seems to me I'm still in the dark - I can be against a stubborn AK (I see that a lot) an overpair I still beat or Queens.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not reraising pf does not mean you'll be playing them weakly after the flop. It just means you'll play them agressively in a smaller pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Please show me a line on how to play these aggressively postflop without playing them aggressively preflop. Do you mean simply leading any non-overcard flop? How do I respond if cold-called? Seems to me I'm still in the dark - I can be against a stubborn AK (I see that a lot) an overpair I still beat or Queens.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are no perfect lines that will give you all the information in the world, he still has position on you and he can still force you to fold the best hand sometimes.

Leading any flop for a psb is good enough, play it like you would play if you reraised pf, lead for pot, check turn, reevaluate.

[BlackRain]

As played I think you gotta fold the flop. You got the info that you needed. Muck em and move on.

[Dan Bitel]

Cold calling preflop is quite simply the correct play. If you reraise, you have to raise to AT LEAST $25 or so, NOW if he 3 bets of cource you fold. But the BIG problem is the very high percentage of the time when he cold calls (which he would do with QQ and some players with AA and KK ie. hands that dominate you). The pot is $50 and you are OOP, no matter what flops you are in trouble. A decent bet on a random flop would be $40. So you would so far have put $65 into a pot, have no baring on how good your hand was, and you would have to fold to any aggression (even if the JJ was an overpair).

Now compare this to my line and FH's line. You call preflop. 3 unders flop...you come out betting pot, he then raises you quite big, you fold. You have only lost $20 - $24 and you are pretty damn confident you are beat. Also this means you can stack him if he does have a monster and a J falls, and you can win the small pots when he has AK/AQ type hand and misses

[NYCNative]

[ QUOTE ]
there are no perfect lines that will give you all the information in the world, he still has position on you and he can still force you to fold the best hand sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I understand. It's a leak - I hate laying down hands that I *think* are best even though sometimes they're not and sometimes they are but they are very precarious (for example, even against a stubborn AK I lost it on the river). I am right sometimes but when I'm not, I can get stacked.

[NYCNative]

By the way, since it doesn't matter - villain actually had AJ and MHIG. Players who play that badly - even worse than I did - make it hard to make laydowns.

Later on the same player raised while I had J5 of hearts in the SB. I decided to call. Sure enough, the flopcame JJQ. I stack him when he cannot get away from his Aces. After the hand I just said "I was defending my blinds..."

He left soon afterwards.