Is there anyway to get away from this hand?

[Minnie Man]

Just wondering if this is a good line. Villan only joined table about 10 hands ago.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">Hero ($44.40)</font>
UTG ($7.90)
MP ($37.95)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($14.40)</font>
SB ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $1.50.

Flop: ($3.60) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, Button calls $4.

<font color="#0000FF">Trying to take down the pot and not let anyone draw out here.</font>
Turn: ($11.60) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9.5</font>, Button calls $8.65 (All-In). <font color="#0000FF">If I check and he bets, do I call? Looks like I am pot committed here. I think at NL25 this is a +EV play. No?</font>

River: ($29.75) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $29.75

[True]

you have the nuts

when you raise pf, I prob make it 1.25, on the flop bet like 2.75 and on the turn your AI so who cares.

you have a monster here.

You can check to induce him to bluff etc.

[Minnie Man]

I don't think I played the hand wrong. I PF raised with the best hand, got called, hit a flop I want and got him all in. Yes, he had a 6. I think anyone would have tried to get him all in here. I keep taking my biggest hits on stupid hands like this. I just want to make sure it wasn't a mistake by me, but rather just bad luck.

[Quester]

This is fine. Add him to your buddy list.

[dashman]

Nicely played. If you check to induce a bluff you are calling his shove anyways(You are really only losing to 2 hands here, AA, A6~garbage 6 hand) therefore you might as well put him in.

Be sure and track this guy down from now on, if he already isn't busto.

[Minnie Man]

Now I feel good to know I played this with a good line. I feel good except for the 60BB I lost! Thanks for the comments.

[BukNaked36]

I'll go to the felt with TPTK against a 60BB shorty all day.

[CaptVimes]

*Grunch*

Don't over bet preflop and flop. You only had 1 limper before you just make it $1.25. Pot the flop. Your just bloating the pot and making it harder for the villain to fold. The shorter the villians stack, the less fold equity you have and making the pot bigger relative to villians stack doesn't help you either.

The problem you run into here is that pretty much any bet on the turn is getting button all-in or at least pot committed, but you have a good hand so I get him in here and make him decide for the rest of his stack. I don't want to check this turn because of the two flush draws out there. All in all I think you ahead here more than your behind.

[silly_monkey]

Against a shortie you should be willing to play for stacks here. Sure he has you beat once in a while, but short stacks tend to get their money in with some pretty bad hands. Guy could have easily had something as bad as KT. I usually check turn to induce a bluff. If I check there its with the intention of calling.

[Minnie Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't over bet preflop and flop. You only had 1 limper before you just make it $1.25. Pot the flop. Your just bloating the pot and making it harder for the villain to fold. The shorter the villians stack, the less fold equity you have and making the pot bigger relative to villians stack doesn't help you either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been experimenting with different PF bet sizing. If I have the best hand PF, doesn't it make sense to try and get more money in PF? If I get called with a PFR of $1.75 with AKs, why not make it $1.75? I would think this would be + EV in the long run. I would have to make sure I raise the same amount with SC and PP too. Even if I don't raise the same amount, and someone is not noticing...and calls my bigger PF raises, then why not? I am finding at the NL25 and especially at NL10, there are many who don't respect a raise, so why not raise more? In my B&amp;M game, a 6-7BB raise with NO limpers gets no respect most of the time. So a 8-10x BB is needed to thin the field. Seems like they are the ones making the mistake to call such a big raise instead of it being my mistake. Don't you think?

[Triggerle]

The problem with betting too much is that when you get re-raised or there is a lot of action on the flop you get close to being pot committed pretty quickly.

Check out this hand (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Number=8704316&amp;an=0&amp;page=1#Post 8704316) for a difficult situation that was caused by a too high pre-flop raise.

[Minnie Man]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with betting too much is that when you get re-raised or there is a lot of action on the flop you get close to being pot committed pretty quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the OP about thinning the field in your linked thread (although I don't agree totally with the timing to raise with his given hand and position). I can't just keep raising 4xBB+1BB per limper if I get 2 or more calls each time. If I keep it at 4xBB+1BB it and getting multiple callers, then become a case of who can hit the flop the hardest.

This point becomes extremely apparent in my live B&amp;M where a 4xBB is never made. The standard raise to thin the field at the B&amp;M is at least 6BB, but usually 7-8BB. I think 4xBB+ 1BB should be a starting point, but should be adjusted based on the respect the raises are getting. At lower limits, raises are not respected as much, so they have to be increased many times until respect is given. It does get you more pot committed, but I think it is better than letting 2 or more players in to see the flop.

In my B&amp;M, they used to have 2-4 limit. It just became a case of who could hit the flop as it was usually 5-6 people seeing the flop. There is now only NL there, but to get respect from your PF raise at NL there, your PF raise must be in the range of 6-10BB.

With a premium hands AA-JJ, AK-AQ, KQs, I need to protect my hand PF and hopefully only get one caller. These hands are best played HU, so I will increase my PF raises until I get HU most of the time. If I show down several good hands and my raises are getting respect, I may lower the raise amount later on.

[SCBielski]

This play here is fine, but get away from the attitude of "ZOMG, HOW CAN I FOLD TPTK?!". This is one of the biggest problems with most 2+2 TAGs at uNL. Overall, not a bad play, holla.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
It does get you more pot committed, but I think it is better than letting 2 or more players in to see the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I don't necessarily disagree you should be aware that this reduces your fold equity. That means you will need to have better cards on average as aggression pays off less.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
This play here is fine, but get away from the attitude of "ZOMG, HOW CAN I FOLD TPTK?!".

[/ QUOTE ]

With deeper effective stacks, and against players who aren't going to give you their stacks with less than TPTK, it's great to think about when to fold or not to fold TPTK.

This isn't one of those times. If Villain got a miracle flop for her 76, she paid way too much preflop to do so.

I don't think you can say Villain is singularly terrible without seeing the hole cards. Lots of micro-stakes player will call A6s or 76o or something with no implied odds to do so. But following this Villain around can't hurt.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It does get you more pot committed, but I think it is better than letting 2 or more players in to see the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I don't necessarily disagree you should be aware that this reduces your fold equity. That means you will need to have better cards on average as aggression pays off less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, as you say FE matters when you have bad/speculative cards. With TPTK reducing FE isn't a problem because you're not generally hoping for a fold.

[Triggerle]

I agree. I was commenting on generally adjusting towards a higher raise.

This hand was fine.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
With deeper effective stacks, and against players who aren't going to give you their stacks with less than TPTK, it's great to think about when to fold or not to fold TPTK.

This isn't one of those times. If Villain got a miracle flop for her 76, she paid way too much preflop to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, but we shouldn't necessarily be committing our stack with the rationale "She's not holding 76o because she didn't have the implied odds to do so."

Hand reading against bad players is truly a difficult thing. But we have to remember that our villain still may hold particular hands even if they made a mistake in doing so.

How does the saying go? Make small pots with small hands and big pots with big hands. TPTK is a small hand; we shouldn't felt it so readily.

[nh5150]

I probably wouldn't be able to get away from this either. I'm quite new to nl, most of my time being in limit. Ive found though that loads of poor players hang on to small PPs longer than they should. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if some prick showed me 33 or 22 in this situation.
I think you played it well. Please tell us the result /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Triggerle]

Quester,

If you are not willing to felt this against a short-stacker you could either raise less pre-flop (adjusting to his stack size) or check/fold the flop.

Both are way worse than losing to an incorrectly played 6 here.

This is why people don't like short-stackers. Their stack size forces this line on you and thus changes the dynamics of the game.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Quester,

If you are not willing to felt this against a short-stacker you could either raise less pre-flop (adjusting to his stack size) or check/fold the flop.

Both are way worse than losing to an incorrectly played 6 here.

This is why people don't like short-stackers. Their stack size forces this line on you and thus changes the dynamics of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fine with it here. In general though, I think it is a mistake to think an opponent won't have a particular hand because you denied them the expressed and implied odds to call with that hand. In fact, I believe this is one of my greatest weaknesses and most likely my #1 leak (losing my stack with TPTK like hands vs. a hand that didn't have odds to call on a previous street).

[subzero]

No way you fold that. With the paired board, it's less likely that he connected with it. The turn is a blank and he's short. Do whatever it takes to get it all in on the turn.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Indeed, but we shouldn't necessarily be committing our stack with the rationale "She's not holding 76o because she didn't have the implied odds to do so."

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, don't misunderstand me. She could very well have 76o and it wouldn't surprise me in the least. But other plausible hands such as KJ, TT, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, etc. also make up a much broader portion of the Villain's range here. A really bad player might even have 99 and think two pair is something special!

The implied odds point was, you don't have to sweat making a bad postflop decision at these stack sizes nearly as much as you would fully- or overstacked. You basically play your hand in the common sense manner, and if your opponent makes a hand that beats TPTK then they get a little bonus for doing so. Over time they're throwing away money through their bad preflop play and only making a little back when they occasionally double through you.

[ QUOTE ]
How does the saying go? Make small pots with small hands and big pots with big hands. TPTK is a small hand; we shouldn't felt it so readily.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but applies more to deeper stacks. We're not even "going to the felt" since we cover Villain. 60 BBL deep and against mediocre-to-bad players, we're not nearly as worried about playing a big pot with essentially one pair.

Not saying it's not a valid consideration. The way you're thinking about NLHE is appropriate (essential!) to deeper games against better opponents. But here I think playing for stacks with TPTK against an unknown is fine.

[Oranzith]

nh