Cutoff and Button: Is there anything you would overlimp with?

[Sean Fraley]

I've begun to notice that in almost every post where someone calls behind limpers, there is almost always a number of responses that say "raise or fold". Therefore, I pose a question: Are there any times that you would overlimp from late position? If so, what types of cards, and in what circumstances?

[SCBielski]

It depends on the table and the players. At lower stakes with a limper or two behind me I have no problem limping with suited connectors, small pocket pairs, and middle to high suited connectors. If you have a big postflop edge over the players at your table (which you should at uNL), then why not take a flop with a tricky hand? Also, you will have position in the hand, which gives you further potential to extract maximum value and control the hand. I'm not telling you to get limp-crazy, but I see no problem with trying to see a few cheap flops, just be sure not to get yourself in trouble. Flops are your friend, holla.

[Sean Fraley]

bump

[Unknown Soldier]

i do it quite often, raisings good if you have FE, but alot of the time you have sweet F.A I don't like it with hands liek AQo because you want to isolate. scs pps are good, in position I sometimes make a sort of pot sweetener with these hands, not expecting anyone to fold.

[Leviathan101]

I like overlimping with Suited aces, and sometimes suited connectors and small pocket pairs. If I'm feeling frisky, I'll overlimp offsuit medium connectors, and occasionally pocket pairs up to TT.

[Frosteater]

It depends a bit on the table and how much I can expect from a hand vs how much I have to invest. Let's say there are three limpers in front with really small stacks and I hold something like 44 or QJs. Nice hands, when they hit, but often I don't want to raise them up to a quarter of my opponents' stacks. So, usually hands that hit big or don't hit at all, where I'd prefer to see the flop before betting all out.

Sometimes AQo, if I feel sneaky. But that's a terrible play, don't do it.

[AceLuby]

I try to never overlimp w/ position. A lot of you are suggesting suited aces and suited connectors, but I say that this is incorrect thinking for these stakes. Here is my thought process.

If it's a limped pot and I hit HARD (2 pr, combo draw, set) chances are that I'm not going to get a lot out of the pot. No one is invested yet and most people don't mind throwing away bottom pair, middle pair etc in an unraised pot.

If I'm raising with suited connectors, all PP's, broadways, suited aces I'm trying to accomplish two things:

1) Show strength PF so that I can take the pot post flop (either on the flop or on the turn and I love to take pots away w/ 45s)

2) Keep doing this for metagame so that no one can tell my misses from my really big hits (sets, flushes, etc.) so I get paid off more often.

In position I want to play big pot poker and the only way to do that is to get $$$ in the pot. Limping lets others get away too cheaply and doesn't make them feel invested. I have had a lot of success raising every PP in every position. Who wants to play in an unraised pot? You don't make any $$$ that way. Once on the button I'm raising anything I'm coming in with. IMO limping in CO or on the button is terrible.

Edit: If a pot has been raised, however, I will simply call w/ these speculative hands in position to try to hit. Then again this is a raised pot. I generally don't like getting involved in unraised pots.

[Smilin']

Overlimping seems OK to me. I would be more likely to do it if 1) I have an OK but speculative hand, 2) there are more limpers (less likely to fold all of them, and my speculative hand probably likes multiway), 3) stacks are short (don't want to get 3bet all-in, and getting all-in postflop in a limped pot will be easier), 4) my cbets haven't been getting respect on the table.

Against many limpers with a speculative hand, actually, I think limping might be the play that typically maximizes EV on the hand in question. But sometimes raising limpers with a speculative hand should help disguise raises with a stronger holding, so raising could still be highest EV overall.

[Route66]

I wonder if the "raise or fold" argument applies more to 6max. I play mostly FR and will frequently limp behind with trash I wouldn't otherwise play (75o etc) as well as hands that play well in multi way pots with position (suited connectors/aces) and small pairs. But I'll still generally pass on hands that are likely to get me in trouble.

I don't see the problem with seeing a cheap flop once in awhile when you have position and potentially huge implied odds. Why raise with 22 when you have little chance of winning right away and would have to fold to a large 3bet from the blinds? I know it helps putting people on a hand when the pot has been raised, but I think that advantage is at least somewhat negated by the risk of a reraise. If its limped to the blinds and one makes a normal raise, you may still get good implied odds to call with a PP. But if you raise and it gets 3bet you'll most likely have to throw it away. After reading NLHETAP I've started making the *occasional* play of raising there with hands like J8s (trying to take it down immediately, but having a hand that could hit the flop hard if called), but that is not my standard play.

I'm not 100% sure I'm right, so please let me know if this is faulty thinking.

[AceLuby]

Oh, my advice was for 6-max not full ring (I HATE full ring games).

[Route66]

I used to play 6max and was doing ok (winning but not crushing by any means), but switched back to FR a few months ago. 6max just seemed to start getting super aggressive (must be all the 2p2'ers!) and many hands turned into flipaments. I couldn't handle the variance and went back to FR and found a lot more success there and much lower variance. I definitely think my foray into 6max helped my FR game, but I'm a conservative player and feel a lot more comfortable there.

Sorry for the hijack /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sean Fraley]

The responses have been great. Anyone who wants to, add your $.02.

[McHonts]

I tend to limp into pots frequently when it is a passive table. I use aggression to take the pots away on later streets. I will limp with AA early looking for a late raiser but will usually raise. What I do not want to happen is to have raised several limpers 4x with say 10Jsuited and then have utg or mid reraise all in or 4x my bet. I would rather see a flop than get bet off of it. all depends on table read and what I did with that type hand last I had it. I can't be too consistant ;-)

[bozzer]

Great thread, good question. I might make a preflop hand quiz re. dealing with limpers because I think it's something I and a lot of people struggle with at nNL.

with one limper I am always raising when entering the pot.

with two limpers I used (as in, a couple of weeks ago) to limp along with the more fishy stuff, but usually I now raise it: it makes it so much easier post-flop. Might limp OCs, S2gappers and stuff like that.

with three+ limpers I haven't got a clue. here the reasons for raising are rapidly getting swallowed by the reasons not too. also in a multiway pot there is a good chance you might be able to get a stack in an unraised pot because there is quite a high chance someone will have something decent.

But as I say, I'm still struggling. I raised 33 behind two limpers on the button at 5NL the other day, wasn't sure whether that was a good idea.