$50NL, Silly spew shove or standard?

[otenke]

Sat down not too long ago. This table has been full of limpers every hand. I have hardly played a single hand yet if any of them have noticed.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $49.75
UTG+1: $45.40
CO: $116.90
Hero: $54.70
SB: $35.99
BB: $52.35

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $4</font>, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($9.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $9</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $50.7</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 calls all-in $32.4</font>.
Uncalled bets: $9.3 returned to Hero.

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($92.05, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $92.05)


River: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($92.05, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $92.05)


Results:
Final pot: $92.05

[Triggerle]

Since I just re-installed pokerstove:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>101,970 games 0.005 secs 20,394,000 games/sec

Board: 8c Th 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 52.444% 49.50% 02.95% 50473 3004.50 { KhJh }
Hand 1: 47.556% 44.61% 02.95% 45488 3004.50 { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+, KJo+, QJo, JTo }</pre><hr />

[Oranzith]

apparently, pokerstove says YES because your FE + 52% equity makes thise a +EV move, however, i think it is spewy, and I am not convinced by Triggerle's range from pokerstove:

"{ TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+, KJo+, QJo, JTo )"

This makes sense for his PF range, but definitely not his donkbet PSB range, NOR his r/r AI calling range. That donkbet IMO changes things completely, so that range is useless. The only hands that will be calling this are TT+, ATs+, KT (MAYBE), QT (big maybe), JT (NO), AQo no, KJo no, QJo no. So while that may be his PF calling range, it is not his calling range of your push.

I would put sets, TT+, KT+, Ahxh, Ah8h, maybe 8Ts (other unsuited 2 pairs are unlikely to call the PF range). If you want to look at your FE compared to the PF range and his donkbet, this MIGHT be breakeven if your lucky.


You're [censored]. I am not a fan of this move.

[Dilznoofus]

Oranzith,

What would you do? Folding just seems too weak here.

[1gotth3nuts]

why raise 8x preflop.?

[ADK]

edit! im blind

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
why raise 8x preflop.?

[/ QUOTE ]

Word.

Really, you have a speculative hand here, without even the nut flush draw. The very thin shove on the flop is slightly right, or slightly to clearly wrong, depending on Villain's range. These are exactly the spots you want to avoid getting yourself into.

Either just limp along or juice the pot a little, but on a table this loose you can't really expect to take it down preflop, and now postflop just got a bunch more expensive, and you have less room to get away.

[Triggerle]

His AI-calling range is irrelevant as he hasn't called, yet. So on to his donkbet range:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>62,370 games 0.005 secs 12,474,000 games/sec

Board: 8c Th 6h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.763% 49.76% 00.00% 31037 0.00 { KhJh }
Hand 1: 50.237% 50.24% 00.00% 31333 0.00 { TT, 88, ATs, A8s, A6s, KTs, QTs, ATo, A8o, A6o, KTo, QTo }
</pre><hr />

Edit: I think Pineapple nailed it. The mistake is your huge pre-flop raise.

[otenke]

Thanx guys.. The reason for the big preflop raise was because the two villains were really lose and very aggro, and called every raise. I wanted to "punish" them for calling preflop raises with much worse range than KJs.. Still very wrong? Just keep standard raise and value bet against these kinds of players?

BTW..I was called by A7 of hearts and he said he "put me on a flush draw" wtf..

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanx guys.. The reason for the big preflop raise was because the two villains were really lose and very aggro, and called every raise. I wanted to "punish" them for calling preflop raises with much worse range than KJs.. Still very wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because 1.) as I said, KJs is a very speculative hand, that is never all that big a favorite even against a very wide range, and 2.) it just puts you in an awkward spot postflop, because there are still several streets to play, even if you are a favorite preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Just keep standard raise

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Don't raise it at all, or make a small pot-juicing min-type-raise if you are deep enough (e.g. significantly more than 100BB).

[ QUOTE ]
value bet against these kinds of players?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But don't go broke with marginal hands. Even donks can wake up with strong hands or hit unlikely flops.

[ama0330]

Wow, humungous preflop raise. If you want a call, make the raise for value i.e. raise with good one pair hands or AK/AQs. If you feel like you're gonna get a call, KJs OOP is not the time to be jumboraising.

As played well it sucks but I think I find a fold, the reason being that the bet indicates two things: 1. You are likely behind and 2. Your fold equity is shot. Very few people at NL50 will lead for ten bucks into a pot with nothing.

Note also that this would be a lot easier had your raise been smaller because the pot would be half the size and you could make a psr over his psb and still get away without commiting your stack.