True, I could use some help here.

[BDaws]

Okay, so I've been reading a couple posts by True. He recommends checking some flops with strong hands after you have reraised to balance the times you check the flops with AK so you don't have to double barrel alot. I think I got his theory right. But does it apply to this hand?

And if so, did I play it correctly?

This was my first orbit at the table. Literally, my second hand.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($415.05)
Button ($546.15)
Hero ($396)
BB ($202.15)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $14</font>, Button calls $14, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $44</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $30, Button folds.

Flop: ($106) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $65</font>, Hero calls $65.

Turn: ($236) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $125</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $361

Edit: I also realize I should've reraised bigger.

[Claunchy]

Looks fine to me.

[smellmuth]

looks good.

[lassie]

Oh god it's so easy for villain to steal this pot.

[bigbluffer79]

why not check/raise and fold to a push. as played u got NO idea if ur beat. lotsa times AT calls pf here and whys he to not think hes good when u check/call. u could def be calling with AKd AQd here and he may think his AT or something is good. c/r flop. as played u got no idea where ur at.

[bigbluffer79]

how is this good. he leaves himself absolutely NO way to know where hes at. this is retarded. why reraise preflop if ur not going to even play ur hand post flop?

[Jay Riall]

This spot sucks ass. I probably play it the same but I'm not sure if that is any good.

[Praetor]

check raising the flop is god awful

[Casper05]

If you call with AT here, move down. If villian called with AT, he's not double barrelling here. Looks fine to me, as long as youre firing the flop some too.

[bigbluffer79]

ok i wont disagree with you, but can you give some reasoning as to why my rational is wrong

[bigbluffer79]

i agree, im not saying i would. but im sure some fish would

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
ok i wont disagree with you, but can you give some reasoning as to why my rational is wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

No worse hands call.

[runningirl07]

I think this hand would be much easier to play if you just be the flop. I don't think this is a good spot to check, 10, 9 flops with jj just isn't super strong in a reraised pot. I would always continuation bet this flop and slow down if called. Pick a much drier board and have at least queeens.

[bigbluffer79]

i agree with this, i shouldve stated that thats isnt the best play. why not lead this flop? imo thats best

[Jay Riall]

All - we aren't slowplaying here...

[bigbluffer79]

i think thats clearly obvious by the fact that he thinks his hand isnt good regardless of whether it is or isnt. but not betting this flop is retarded.

[Jay Riall]

Move down plz.

[bigbluffer79]

quit poker plz.

[mattak]

I would be much more willing to check AA here than JJ. I understand OP's intent but this is the wrong hand IMHO to do this with.

[bigbluffer79]

sorry, that was very rude of me.

please continue to play poker. u provide me with money=).

[Jay Riall]

AA is a much better bet than JJ here since we are value betting vs a lot more hands with AA...

[bigbluffer79]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be much more willing to check AA here than JJ. I understand OP's intent but this is the wrong hand IMHO to do this with.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Claunchy]

Jay is so right.

If you have AA and lead, stuff like KK/QQ/JJ etc calls, and you make money.

If you have JJ and lead, stuff like AA/KK/QQ either calls or raises, and everything else pretty much folds.

So tell me bigbluffer, why are we betting into a dark tunnel exactly?

[BDaws]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be much more willing to check AA here than JJ. I understand OP's intent but this is the wrong hand IMHO to do this with.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would much rather check JJ than AA. I want to bet with AA because there are worse hands that give me action (KK-JJ).

Edit: I read and type slow.

[josh_x]

[ QUOTE ]
Jay: Move down plz.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Newb: quit poker plz.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Newb: sorry, that was very rude of me.

please continue to play poker. u provide me with money=).

[/ QUOTE ]

HU for rolls?

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jay: Move down plz.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Newb: quit poker plz.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Newb: sorry, that was very rude of me.

please continue to play poker. u provide me with money=).

[/ QUOTE ]

HU for rolls?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would I want to play 0.10/0.25?

[PBJaxx]

[ QUOTE ]
how is this good. he leaves himself absolutely NO way to know where hes at. this is retarded. why reraise preflop if ur not going to even play ur hand post flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do yourself a favor and quit thinking about this stuff, and try to think about +EV

[True]

Great spot,

I would prob fold to his flop bet but w/e.

It is very likely villain has a big hand to raise UTG and call an OOP re-raise.

I like just flat calling pf here with JJ tbh.

[bigbluffer79]

[straate]

this is terrible. always bet here, never check. do you want to be playing a guessing game for your stack?

[True]

also I am pretty sure

"name1name2numbers"

are trolls

[Claunchy]

[ QUOTE ]
this is terrible. always bet here, never check. do you want to be playing a guessing game for your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL like he would ever stack off here.

[True]

[ QUOTE ]
this is terrible. always bet here, never check. do you want to be playing a guessing game for your stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

wahahahaha

the trolls are out in numbers tonight

[bigbluffer79]

ROFL ROFL u dont know who straate is do you. ROFL if u cant spot the fish...

[True]

[ QUOTE ]
ROFL ROFL u dont know who straate is do you. ROFL if u cant spot the fish...

[/ QUOTE ]

dunno, but his advise is retarded

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
ROFL ROFL u dont know who straate is do you. ROFL if u cant spot the fish...

[/ QUOTE ]

ZOMG is straate!!! Let us all bow down to his greatness!

[luckychewy]

i would either b/f, b/c, or c/f if he is a nit on that flop since you don't beat 99/tt anymore and nits won't bluff with overs so u can usually get to showdown easily. maybe c/r ai if guy is a maniac. i think c/c is pretty terrible. the vast majority of the time i'm betting tho.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
i would either b/f, b/c, or c/f if he is a nit on that flop since you don't beat 99/tt anymore and nits won't bluff with overs so u can usually get to showdown easily. maybe c/r ai if guy is a maniac. i think c/c is pretty terrible. the vast majority of the time i'm betting tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

And do what if we get called? Just c/f? Doesn't make much sense to me tbh.

[BDaws]

[ QUOTE ]
It is very likely villain has a big hand to raise UTG and call an OOP re-raise.

I like just flat calling pf here with JJ tbh.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even though it's 4 handed? Plus my squeeze raise size was a tad small and villain is in position.

[vvvQ]

lead the flop, checking is 100% retarded almost always, unless hes the player to take a very large stab at the pot, where i'd shove in vs him, also re-raise more PF, his range could be really wide here PF.
of course i'd probably go broke here but im sure my game is alot different.
your hand is weak but probably good, and you need to protect it from overcarsd/flushdraws/etc etc.
if you feel the player is nitty then bet/fold don't check/call

[Jay Riall]

If he is nitty then check/fold is much better than bet/fold imo.

[straate]

[ QUOTE ]
lead the flop, checking is 100% retarded almost always, unless hes the player to take a very large stab at the pot, where i'd shove in vs him, also re-raise more PF, his range could be really wide here PF.
of course i'd probably go broke here but im sure my game is alot different.
your hand is weak but probably good, and you need to protect it from overcarsd/flushdraws/etc etc.
if you feel the player is nitty then bet/fold don't check/call

[/ QUOTE ]
ty vvvQ /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gimmetheloot]

Just to let you silly bastards know, straate OWNS THE [censored] out of 400-1kNL...really, OWNS them. go look in MSNL cheese thing.

[luminous]

YOUR ALL PUSSIES VVVQ &gt; YOU


YOU SHOULD PUSH PRE FLOP AND STEAL THE BLINDS THAT WAY YOU DONT HAVE HARD DECISIONS ! NL5 &gt; YOU

[Claunchy]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to let you silly bastards know, straate OWNS THE [censored] out of 400-1kNL...really, OWNS them. go look in MSNL cheese thing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah but he also runs a lot laggier and plays in more aggro higher-stakes games than most SSNLers. OP isn't gonna get looked up w/ like 88 if he bets.

[mrTEA]

AM I IN THE [censored] TWILIGHT ZONE WTF

[carrotsnake]

&lt;3 MrTea, agreed

[luminous]

YA AND SO IS YO FAT MOTHER MRTEA u punk ass bitch

[Jay Riall]

Can people please post strategy and reasoning behind it rather than making lame comments like 'checking is retarded.'

[mrTEA]

wtf im agreeing with you u idiot

[Claunchy]

I have yet to hear one non-retarded reason to bet in this thread.

And if I see the words "protect" or "find out where we're at" I'm gonna pull all my hair out individually.

Oh, I thought you were saying to bet also MrTEA.

[luminous]

i dont care i dont like your icon me and ET got beef

[mrTEA]

o ok we're cool then

[carrotsnake]

He was saying to bet claunchy.

[GAL]

I didn't see the True post OP is refering to but I'd assume he meant checking the flop with hands like AJ on a AJx flop. Checking flops with good hands to balance strategy certainly does not apply to this hand it really may as well be AK.

[GAL]

Im betting this flop 100% of the time to abot $90, if I get called I'm done with the hand. Since your concerned with balancing your play, you bet the 100% of the time with AA,KK,TT,99 right?

[Jay Riall]

This isn't really about balancing play its about maximising EV. Betting pretty much turns our hand into a bluff vs this guy imo.

[GAL]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't really about balancing play its about maximising EV. Betting pretty much turns our hand into a bluff vs this guy imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that, but OPs opening line states that balancing play is his main reason for checking this flop.

"may as well be AK" ie. a bluff.

[Jay Riall]

Metagame should be the last thing on his mind imo.

[ajmargarine]

Settle down you dingalings. luminous banned 1 day for flaming, he will be missed.

[GAL]

OK, Jay, I didn't really post in this thread to give any real advice on how to play this specific hand but moreso just to point out to OP that Trues checking a good hand to balance play theory doesn't really apply to this hand, in fact this hand is just about the worst example of applying that concept.

You seem to be looking for a strategy answer to why checking the flop is better than betting the flop here even after people have given reasons, just because you don't agree betting is better.

Here are 2 reasons I bet this flop.
1. I bet most flops if I am PFR or RR, it makes it easier to get paid when I have a big hand....blah, blah, you know the rest.
2. If I check here unless the Villan is the most passive player ever he will bet this 100% IMO.

Also betting here is not about maximising EV, I can't think of a single hand were up against here that we have a big +EV edge over. We all know no worse hands call us on this flop thus our hand becomes a bluff, would you check this flop holding 33? because no worse hands call that either.

[Jay Riall]

GAL

To your reasons to bet flop -
1. You really shouldn't I probably check more flops than I bet at tbh as a preflop raiser. This is pretty standard amongst most posters here imo.
2. Your wrong. People will check behind on this flop a lot unless they are over-aggro. Also, if he bets with 100% of his hands, but only calls your bet when you are beat then c/c is vastly superior.

I don't want to turn this hand into a bluff since it still has value. 33 only really has value as a bluff now.

[BobAllinSki]

I dunno, if I cant call 2 streets I lead, betting may feel like a bluff but just calling is like saying "I have a pair - rob me", betting may just achieve winning the pot when you were ahead anyway, but check calling just puts money into a pot where the only chance you have of winning is if villain has AK and decides not to fire again.

I'm not saying check calling is wrong, but I'd only want to do it when I feel my hand is strong enough to take some heat.

I'd discount what I say somewhat though, in the games I play in this could be value bet all day.

[natzucowww]

checking the flop seems like it lets him outplay us if he's willing to fire the turn. he knows we have something after we call the flop and our akdiamonds is betting the flop so is he barreling the turn cause we chckd or did he smoothcll overpairs pf, or flop a set. dunno but we're saying you dictate the hand after we raised pf. maybe the buttons call and our smallish raise pf kept him in with kqclubs we fire the flop he calls, check the turn he takes a free card and we block the river. that's not a great line but in combination with the fact that he might fold the flop since we have no read that he's a nit pf, it could be an argument for leading after we raise it up pf.

[Jay Riall]

If he's really going to multistreet bluff us a lot I just check/call him down.

[BobAllinSki]

[ QUOTE ]
If he's really going to multistreet bluff us a lot I just check/call him down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if villain multi street bluffs I love check calling here.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]

I like just flat calling pf here with JJ tbh.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the reason? I can see calling with position but out of position wouldn't a reraise be better here? Or are you just calling 100% for set value with JJ?

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I like just flat calling pf here with JJ tbh.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is the reason? I can see calling with position but out of position wouldn't a reraise be better here? Or are you just calling 100% for set value with JJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't want to bloat the pot oop with a hand that if called is going to be very marginal and difficult to play. He's not calling for set value he's guna play pokah. Not sure if I agree but its interesting.

[natzucowww]

true, but here we have no read so why give him the chance to get excited about running us over rather than siding with aggression in an unknown situation.

[1C5]

It sucks trying to play poker OOP imo.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
It sucks trying to play poker OOP imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This spot isn't exactly the greatest either tbh. Maybe easier to play oop in a smaller pot?

[Claunchy]

I almost said call preflop, but then I realized it was 4-handed. That widens UTG's range considerably.

If we were 6-handed I think this is a standard call against an unknown.

[True]

tbh, my concepts only apply coz I check the flop as much as i bet it after raising pf

[Jay Riall]

Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[1C5]

[ QUOTE ]
Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be surprised how often this works at 100NL vs most players.

reraise in their mind= AA or KK everytime if you don't do it often.

AK=AA often for me.

[Keyser.]

I don't really see why this hand started all this controversy. It looks perfectly played to me.

[Panthro]

[ QUOTE ]
Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

[gimmetheloot]

Jay/All, Straate told you.

reread his post. I dont think he really needs to elaborate on it. Or put his post together with lassies first post.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
Jay/All, Straate told you.

reread his post. I dont think he really needs to elaborate on it. Or put his post together with lassies first post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Straate made some vague comment about not knowing where we are. I'm not taking his word as gospel as much as other people around here would like to.

[Tickner]

Jay,

[ QUOTE ]

...I probably check more flops than I bet at tbh as a preflop raiser. This is pretty standard amongst most posters here imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

why?

[Dan Bitel]

jay,

maybe you dont realise how much straate is killing the MSNl/HSNL games?

[SEABEAST]

The checking the flop with strong hands for balance thing really applies when you're WA/WB (way ahead/way behind), like AK flop A, or AA flop all rags. Spots where the flop checking through doesn't matter much. This hand is very different from those, because your hand is very vulnerable and you need information.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. It is extremely hard to play against.

[Tickner]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. It is extremely hard to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

I'm not in the "check a lot of flops" camp, and I dont think I ever really understood the concept or why its done at SSNL games.

I would think it would put yourself into a lot of tough spots when you are marginal and make you the least money when you have a monster long term.

[PBJaxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really see why this hand started all this controversy. It looks perfectly played to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole "checking the flop" thing has been a major source of argument around here lately, obv. The main reason, though, is because True's name is in the title of the thread.

[GAL]

Could someone link some of these checking the flop OOP as PFR posts, I seem to have missed them. Also any HHs where people have won big pots by checking the flop would be nice, nothing too huge but 150BBs+ at least.

[True]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. It is extremely easy to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

[2Paul2]

LOL at betting having no value. Any pair/draw(I know not that likely cos of utg raise and rr call but scs are definitely part of an unknowns range here and AT-Ks are an even bigger part)and often AK will call a flop bet here. People call rr's much wider than they used to and call the flop w/ all sorts of rubbish since the 3betting fad started.

Imo c/c:ing here also lets villain play perfectly, esp for the people who want to check JJ and bet AA/KK. Even if you balance by checking sets sometimes, the likelyhood is your going to have a marginal mid pair or somethign like 9Ts that can't take much heat/would like a cheap showdown when you c/c because sets are hard to flop. Plus your just missing out on way too much value checking sets in this spot in the long run.

Ye just blindly firing away on the flop in every rr pot isnt necessarily a good thing but if I check here it's because I know villain is pretty squeaky and it's to c/f or I know villain is a laggro spaz and I'm c/shoving.

Paul

[Toyboy]

I don't think JJ is strong enough for this line. I b/f this flop after having rr pf against an unknown. I cannot see how c/c can be good, you have no idea how aggressive he is so after he bets flop you're really lost and any AKQ is a scarecard on turn.

Once he calls your pf raise, are we really in a +EV position (oop vs an unknown with JJ)? I'm not so sure, and firing 2/3 - 3/4 pot folding to a raise seems like a fair enough flop line to me.

Against a known (over-)aggro I could see taking your line though.

[Elandriel]

I bet the flop

[kazana]

I'd need a lot of FE to bet that flop. Ironically, FE should be much higher vs good players than bad ones.

Worse hands (and I really don't think there are many out there) just about never call a cbet, and if they do, we're still going to have MUBS (and that OOP) for the rest of the hand.
Add to that, that there are many overcards that would make my paranoia even worse. I guess I'm falling back to wussy play.

[Novles]

imo, c/cing this flop with the intention of c/fing this turn is lighting $65 on fire. It'll get checked down about never.

[Freelancer]

Oh jezus some of the advice in this thread is completely horrid.

First off lets get one thing straight;
C/c the flop and c/f a blank turn is perfectly fine and is NOT a major mistake. Some people seem to think bet/fold is the only good line here for vague or bad reasons (information/ease of play etc.).

Betting this flop or c-betting most flops when you reraise preflop is also a decent strategy, IF you realize you are turning a lot of hands into bluffs. Its profitable because villain will fold often enough to your c-bets if you don't 3-bet excessivly preflop.

I do think however taking this line occasionally with a JJ type of hand is more profitable than the b/f line. A lot of villains will blindly bet in a 3-bet pot when you show weakness, but there are very few villains that lead double barrel in 3-bet pots. Basically if you have a read c/c c/f becomes better and without a read its usually best to just b/f.




Ps. I guess this puts me in the jay and true campement...

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
imo, c/cing this flop with the intention of c/fing this turn is lighting $65 on fire. It'll get checked down about never.

[/ QUOTE ]
There aren't that many villains that double barrel with air in 3-bet pots against a preflop agressor (and anything but air has us beat most of the time).

[Novles]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
imo, c/cing this flop with the intention of c/fing this turn is lighting $65 on fire. It'll get checked down about never.

[/ QUOTE ]
There aren't that many villains that double barrel with air in 3-bet pots against a preflop agressor (and anything but air has us beat most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with this statement at 200NL and below, but the aggression level is a lot higher at 400NL in my experience.

[deaders]

I dont know if it applies to 400nl bc I havent played that high but in my experience people dont double barrel rr pots like this often at all. If I was villain in this hand betting the turn I would fully expect to be c/red like 75% of the time.

[Darkfolder]

[ QUOTE ]
jay,

maybe you dont realise how much straate is killing the MSNl/HSNL games?

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF does that matter? He obviously wrote that line based on how he would play the hand himself and that cannot be applied here in the same way.


I cant understand how so many players in this thread can have such fundamental leaks saying that checking JJ here is 100% retarded. IT IS NOT. With the right image, betting here can be very good but against an unknown checking here is much better.

You must take into account that the pot is reraised preflop and Villain have bet two streets without fear after Hero c/c the flop. He will show upp with a better hand here like always and folding is therefore the correct play. When we check the flop our hand will look a lot like AK (from villains POV), and therefore we have to check the flop to possibly get a bet from missed overs. If he checks the flop through we have to assume that our hand is best and valuebet the turn as long as no overcards show up.

And one more thing to you who thinks villain can easily be on a bluff here. If we would have bet flop with the intention of folding to a raise we would have been bluffed out anyway. There simply arent any many players that would multibarrel when we check the flop and fold when we bet the flop.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
jay,

maybe you dont realise how much straate is killing the MSNl/HSNL games?

[/ QUOTE ]

???

Daniel Negraneau has made tens of millions of dollars through poker, yet he frequently gets called a fish on these board? Go figure. Just because someone is a winning player does not mean we should blindly copy every play they make without question.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
imo, c/cing this flop with the intention of c/fing this turn is lighting $65 on fire. It'll get checked down about never.

[/ QUOTE ]
There aren't that many villains that double barrel with air in 3-bet pots against a preflop agressor (and anything but air has us beat most of the time).

[/ QUOTE ]

I generally agree with this statement at 200NL and below, but the aggression level is a lot higher at 400NL in my experience.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have only played 200nl and lower so I can't really comment on the agression in the 400nl+ games. If they are that agressive you probably have to call a turn bet as well if you take this line, this obviously depends on the villain. The more likely he is to double barrel the less good this line becomes.

[BobAllinSki]

[ QUOTE ]
There simply arent any many players that would multibarrel when we check the flop and fold when we bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dissagree, any decent aggro player with AK will multibarrel often here, the flop check call says I either have &lt;QQ, A monster or AK, if villain thinks you can fold &lt;QQ &amp; AK a bet is often correct.

If you dont feel your bluff catcher is strong enough to catch a bluff you are probably better leading the flop, even if the only hands that will fold are hands you beat anyway, as you do have reasonable fold equity but by just calling you have very little showdown equity, you are relying on your opponent both having AK and not firing a second barrel.

Of course there are metagame adjustments you can make to reduce the success of villains firing the turn as a bluff but they all involve playing strong hands more passively to stop your mediocre hands getting run over, do this to much and your game will spiral into a situation where you can value bet very little because no observant player will give you action.

Dont get me wrong, there are situations where check call is a good option, but thats usually when you can call a second bet, you do so to invite a bluff, not hope they dont make it.

[dd323]

I'm not sure why everyone is saying this is fine, there is no way I check this flop with JJ. With AA and KK I check it a lot, but with JJ, its just bad. Any A,K, or Q either kills your hand or you action, and you already have a murky idea of where you are at, and if villian is aggressive you may get yourself pushed off the hand. Against a lot of regulars you can occassionally play AA like this and you wouldn't believe what kind of stuff pushes the turn., to push you off your weak made hand..

[Ness3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. It is extremely hard to play against.

[/ QUOTE ]

its worse to bet after every time you pfr raise, rather than every time you pfrr.

ness

[Dan Bitel]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
jay,

maybe you dont realise how much straate is killing the MSNl/HSNL games?

[/ QUOTE ]

???

Daniel Negraneau has made tens of millions of dollars through poker, yet he frequently gets called a fish on these board? Go figure. Just because someone is a winning player does not mean we should blindly copy every play they make without question.

[/ QUOTE ]

jay,

I'm not sure that you quite comprehend how well straate is doing in teh MSNL/HSNL games.

Maybe you should look at their cheese thread and check it out? It might well help you understand poker better

[Isura]

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This isn't really about balancing play its about maximising EV. Betting pretty much turns our hand into a bluff vs this guy imo.

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but you're going to want to bet with air!

[Isura]

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Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

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Not really. It is extremely easy to play against.

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Def man. Why don't you go sit with lolotricked/bld/empiremaker

[True]

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Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

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Not really. It is extremely easy to play against.

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Def man. Why don't you go sit with lolotricked/bld/empiremaker

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I would imagine they dont bet 100% of the time after re-raising

also, if you give a man a fishing rod he doesn't automatically become an expert fisherman

[Darkfolder]

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I dissagree, any decent aggro player with AK will multibarrel often here, the flop check call says I either have &lt;QQ, A monster or AK, if villain thinks you can fold &lt;QQ &amp; AK a bet is often correct.

If you dont feel your bluff catcher is strong enough to catch a bluff you are probably better leading the flop, even if the only hands that will fold are hands you beat anyway, as you do have reasonable fold equity but by just calling you have very little showdown equity, you are relying on your opponent both having AK and not firing a second barrel.

Of course there are metagame adjustments you can make to reduce the success of villains firing the turn as a bluff but they all involve playing strong hands more passively to stop your mediocre hands getting run over, do this to much and your game will spiral into a situation where you can value bet very little because no observant player will give you action.

Dont get me wrong, there are situations where check call is a good option, but thats usually when you can call a second bet, you do so to invite a bluff, not hope they dont make it.

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Well, I dont think it is that way. The "decent, aggro" players you are talking about that are capable of multibarreling are probably also capable of trying to take the pot away from you when you bet the flop.

I think you´re reasoning is fairly logical here but with JJ we have a quite good equity against his range and therefore I dont want to turn our hand into a bluff even If i´m not planning calling down three streets. We can not assume that an unknown will multibarrel us in a 3-bet pot and therefore I think we can fold the turn comfortably if he fires again.

[Isura]

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Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

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Not really. It is extremely easy to play against.

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Def man. Why don't you go sit with lolotricked/bld/empiremaker

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I would imagine they dont bet 100% of the time after re-raising

also, if you give a man a fishing rod he doesn't automatically become an expert fisherman

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No they don't. But they bet much more often than checking. The point is that it is a very difficult style to play against. You basically have to make hands because your stack is at risk in every hand.

[Novles]

For those taking the c/c, c/f line,

What's your postflop line with 88? Please ignore pf as I know it sucks with 88, but the 3-bet size sucks in this particular hand anyway. Humor me.

db,

I don't understand your sarcastic tone concerning straate. Please include your thoughts on the actual hand.

[Go_Blue88]

FWIF i use this strategy too and to do it well, you have to be able to make big calls. to a lot of players it looks like you have AK (yes, amazingly lots of players will get pissed when they miss the flop and call a CB with AK high). so it really depends on my opponent--if my opponent is the type capable of making big bluffs, i'll call this turn and c/c almost any river; however, if my opponent is tight, i might even fold the flop (and definitely the turn).

[Go_Blue88]

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Blindly betting every flop after reraising pf is a pretty damn big leak imo.

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Not really. It is extremely easy to play against.

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Def man. Why don't you go sit with lolotricked/bld/empiremaker

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I would imagine they dont bet 100% of the time after re-raising

also, if you give a man a fishing rod he doesn't automatically become an expert fisherman

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No they don't. But they bet much more often than checking. The point is that it is a very difficult style to play against. You basically have to make hands because your stack is at risk in every hand.

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ya, but people who CB 100% of the time often don't continue betting each street. so your stack is not really at risk--in fact, you can float these people.

[Isura]

Have fun floating in reraised pots

[Dan Bitel]

novles,

I actually think betting is better.

With reads, yeah either c/c c/r or c/c c/f. But without them, we can actually make some pretty big mistakes if we gauge his frequencies wrong.

Betting certainly has value in my eyes, as we'll get called by most pairs, and they usually check it down from there.

Also, even IF betting the flop is turning our hand into a bluff, can some1 explain why thats a bad thing to do in THIS spot? After all, we WOULD bet this flop as a bluff!

betting does protect our hand
betting does make it easier to play (so we are less likely to make FTOP mistakes)
betting does give us info on his hand (which is NOT a bad thing)
betting does stop us inducing bluffs we cant call.

All these reasons are good reasons to bet. So I like a bet here. Checking is certainly not retarded and is a fine line with reads i think. But I prefer a bet here.

[Go_Blue88]

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Have fun floating in reraised pots

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that was just an aside. the main point is that your stack is not always at risk.

and i will have fun doing that; it works against people who reraise too much.

[MatthewRyan]

C/C Flop is so god damn ugly.

why? Because hands like 78s. Qjs Ak At JTs etc etc etc are all calling a smallish rr preflop and those are all 2nd barreling vs what looks like a bad squeeze play or scared hand.

[yundmi]

I think if a villain is willing to double barrel here on a bluff, he *might* be willing to float and stab the turn. All of this is of course villain dependent. Obviously, because we just sat down, we have no reads on villains and they have no idea how we play.

This is going to sound stupid but...Checking after RR postflop can look either both extremely strong or extremely weak, just like betting after RR postflop can look really strong or really weak. Now keep in mind that since both hero and villain are unknown in this hand, neither has an idea of where they really stand. However, check calling a RR flop in a situation where both are unknown is usually a sign of significant strength. If we can assume that the villain can think at all, he probably realizes a this point that we have at least top pair or better, and most people usually dont think they can push people off top pair unless they've had history/reads. Having said this, I think c/c, c/f is perfectly fine here.

Like OP stated, he should have RR more preflop, but the board is really bad and we don't really beat much except air here anyway and i think in most situations we should give unknowns the benefit of the doubt in doublebarreled RR pots.

[yundmi]

And for those who think villain thinks OP is squeezing, how often do you put a villain on a huge squeeze on his first hand of the table? I think more often than not, we'd fold everything except AK+, PPs given the right odds, and pretty rarely SCs...which is what I think villain's range consists of here.

[keikiwai]

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Have fun floating in reraised pots

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people who fold too little seem to combat the pfrr bet combo the best, as it forces the pfrr-er to make hands or tighten up the pfrrs, so then the tables have turned.... but i guess you should always welcome opportunities where you can play straight forward and get paid off

[Leviathan]

There's a point that seems to divide forumers.

With AA, some say they would be more inclined to check the flop as they would have a real hand (which is why IMO OP shouldn't refer to True's concept which doen't not apppy to JJ in that spot). Some say they would be more inclined to bet because now there are a couple of hands that they beat that could give them action.

I personally think that, vs an unknown, it's WAY better to bet with aces on this flop. There are too many scare turns to let vilain grab a free card.
On a dry flop, ok to check aces, and preferably vs a known opponent.
I thought it was worth saying as not all posters seem to agree with that.

With jacks, i have a very vulnerable hand and I would find it very tough to play. On the one hand, there are even more bad turns for me than if i had AA so i'd be inclined to bet my jacks and if called i'm done with them.
I'd be scared to face a bigger PP but i think i would make a big bet, at least 85-90$ on flop.

But, in a r/red pot there are a couple of hands that are already ahead so c/c the flop may bring some action from an AK. And, compared to draw, we are not that ahead: our holding being weak, we are likely to check the turn (many scare cards) so we would give very inviting odds to a draw. So if we are ahead, it's not that much (and WB hands would fold) and when we are behind, it's way behind so i understand the c/c flop - c/f turn.

I think i would use both plays from time to time: bet/fold if raised (and give up if called) and c/c flop - c/f turn.

The preflop play makes the hand even tougher to play. As we are builing a pot OOP with a marginal hand, aren't we supposed to r/r bigger preflop to stand a chance to scoop it right now??