an AK hand deepstacked v 2+2er

[smellmuth]

villain is 16-11-2.5 through 400 hands and has not gotten out of line this session.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($404.20)
Button ($393.95)
SB ($89.70)
BB ($140.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $28</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $20.

Flop: ($59) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $32</font>, Hero calls $32.

Turn: ($123) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $74</font>

Final Pot: $123

[lassie]

Call and check river.

[Al_Money]

Preflop is really bad.

Didn't realize we are deep but I still don't like it much.

[smellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

explain. normally i shove but we're too deep for that, i think a reraise is horrible as i a) cannot call a shove and b) will likely fold out a ton of hands i can get value from postflop but will never fold the hands that crush me. essentially, if he does anything but fold after a preflop 4 bet im fcked in the bum.

[carrotsnake]

lol, you didn't tell me he was a 2+2, SHOVE! /images/graemlins/wink.gif. Nah, I stick by what I said. Al, preflop isn't great, but its not awful by any means this deep

[lassie]

Preflop isnt bad at all. Its standard. Shoving the turn is IMO not good. This is a WB/WA situation and we wont get called by anything we beat if we shove this turn.

[carrotsnake]

fwiw, the fact this is a 2+2er makes shove go up a TINY amount, but not enough, like to 20% maybe.

[Al_Money]

Bleh its 4 handed. I digress.

[smellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
He's 16/11 and does not get out of line. You raised UTG, yet he still 3 bets on the button. He is obv showing a good amount of strength.

I really don't mind folding here, as weak as that may seem.

What type of flop were you looking for with this hand that you can play comfortably?

[/ QUOTE ]

the exact one i got. except then the turn came.

[2Paul2]

I think the turn is a pretty easy fold given villain description.

I dont hate a fold pf either.

Paul

[Praetor]

I would fold or 4 bet preflop, leaning towards fold.

[smellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold or 4 bet preflop, leaning towards fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think 4 bet in this spot is real bad. with 100bb stacks i shove all day long.

[Isura]

I usually just make it 99 PF and fold to a shove. Check/fold a missed flop obv.

[Hoopster81]

fold pf

don't feed the nits

[Mossberg]

16/11, ugh.. I'd just fold.

As played I think you've gotta fold the turn.

[Idan151]

smellmuth, what range of hands would you shove in this spot preflop with 100bb stacks against a 3-bet from this type of player? I usually don't 4-bet shove because I assume I'm only getting called by AA/KK and maybe sometimes QQ so maybe there's something I'm still missing..

[carrotsnake]

4 betting AK to fold to a shove is bad

[Praetor]

no its not

[Tickner]

Hes betting this turn with a lot of holdings.
Calling sucks though
And raising also sucks

Congratulations, you put yourself in a pretty tough spot.

If you call he is liable to push you off your holding on the river. If you push hes only calling you with hands you beat. Your hand isnt that great, youve got TPTK and there is a pair on the board, but his bet smells fishy. It could either mean hes got a monster, or hes betting because its a good steal spot. Personally I think I bet here with anything I hold if I am villian.

Hes pretty tight.

Meh, its probably a fold as played, but since its such a good stealing spot from his perspective, I'd probably call most of the time and check/fold the river.

[smellmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
smellmuth, what range of hands would you shove in this spot preflop with 100bb stacks against a 3-bet from this type of player? I usually don't 4-bet shove because I assume I'm only getting called by AA/KK and maybe sometimes QQ so maybe there's something I'm still missing..

[/ QUOTE ]

AA, KK, AK, Ax.

[Idan151]

The more I look at this hand and the pf action, the more I lean towards either 4-betting pf or folding. I'm not sure how you've been playing pf, but villain sees a raise UTG from us and 3-bets with a range most likely to be TT/JJ+ or KQs/AQs/AKs or some garbage hand sometimes.

Calling in this spot sets us up for a really difficult postflop scenario. We have to c/f if we miss. If we do hit, we're not even sure if we're ahead. This forced you to take a line of c/c, c/c or c/f which sucks when you're deep stacked. Getting to showdown seems like its going to be too tough, so just 4-bet this preflop or fold is what I'm goin with.

[josh_x]

It depends a bit on whether his stats are for 4 handed or 6 handed. If he is 16/11 4 handed fold the nuts because he probably has a joker.

Seriosuly though as played pf the flop is good/standard. On the turn i think you have to fold. Underpairs should give up given the super dry board on the flop, which you called. AK checks behind the turn a reasonable amount of the time i would think. He wouldn't expect you to fold AK generally so it's unlikely he's trying to bluff you off that.

So basically i think his betting range is on the turn is pretty much AA KK QQ KQ and often but not always AK. AJ or AT are hands he could possibly have on the turn, but he probably wouldn't be so keen on bluffing them with his straight draw that he want to catch. JJ, TT, 99 might very occasionally bet the turn to try and get you off a pp.

Sorry for the super rambly post, i fold the turn.

[Praetor]

Postflop, I like your line so far - fold turn

[smellmuth]

btw, i folded this turn and stacked him for the full amount 2 hands later. weeeeeeeeeee!