JJ I hate you DEEPly

[Casper05]

Villian is a bad TAG who really really wants to stack me. We've gone at it a afew times and I've stacked him each time...222 vs his AA all in on flop, and 78 vs KK all in on a 456 flop. The KK hand he open pushed 110BB...he's bad.

For those that NEED stats, he is 18/10/3

Is the turn a fold? Hell, I almost folded the flop honestly...I didnt, and his turn bet smelled fishy

Full Tilt Poker
$0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
BTN: $25.35
SB: $109.75
BB: $71.8
UTG: $187.10
Hero (MP): $581.95
CO: $230.75

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($1.5, 6 players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $12</font>, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls $8.50

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($25.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $22</font>, Hero calls $22

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif [9/images/graemlins/heart.gif] ($69.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $31</font>, Hero calls $31

<font color="black">River:</font> 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif [K/images/graemlins/spade.gif] ($131.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets all in for $165.75</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $165.75 returned to CO

[gimmetheloot]

played fine. nice stack /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Panthro]

Call flop, fold turn IMO.

[BobAllinSki]

A flop fold would be very bad, there is just not enough information to check fold, if its close to enough information to do this, i.e. he doesnt bluff enough so folding to his bet is a close decision then leading out is probably better, if he raises your lead you can definately fold but if he calls your probably good.

Yeah, turn is probably a fold but its fairly close, especially if there is a reasonable chance he could be bluffing, he doesnt have TPTK and a 2nd barrel with AK isnt all that likely, he could have TT on the turn but not that many TAGs re-raise tens so its a small part of a range that likely has you beat.

River is a easy fold without reads, only TT and possible AQ are behind you now

[skegvegaspoker]

Played well IMO.

[Stealthy]

No problems here.

[epdaws]

If you've played this much with him, you ought to know if he is willing to double or triple barrel. He has position, so have you seen him keep firing with hands like AK or AQ in position? Smaller pairs? Does he have a reasonably wide re-raising range?

I'm not c/c'ing that turn. You're declaring that you have a hand that can not take much more heat, and this guy is willing to capitalize on weakness, it seems.

Check/call flop and lead turn is a scary line, and Villain is unlikely to make a move on you with a hand like AK in that spot. He's unlikely to flat call with it either, but this is a time when you don't mind folding out a worse hand when you would otherwise be subjected to a lot of pressure yourself.

I'd lead the turn for $44 and be done with it if he calls. You are too deep here to burn much with an unimproved JJ in a RR pot.

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
If you've played this much with him, you ought to know if he is willing to double or triple barrel. He has position, so have you seen him keep firing with hands like AK or AQ in position? Smaller pairs? Does he have a reasonably wide re-raising range?

I'm not c/c'ing that turn. You're declaring that you have a hand that can not take much more heat, and this guy is willing to capitalize on weakness, it seems.

Check/call flop and lead turn is a scary line, and Villain is unlikely to make a move on you with a hand like AK in that spot. He's unlikely to flat call with it either, but this is a time when you don't mind folding out a worse hand when you would otherwise be subjected to a lot of pressure yourself.

I'd lead the turn for $44 and be done with it if he calls. You are too deep here to burn much with an unimproved JJ in a RR pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you suggest bluffing?

[Casper05]

[ QUOTE ]
If you've played this much with him, you ought to know if he is willing to double or triple barrel. He has position, so have you seen him keep firing with hands like AK or AQ in position? Smaller pairs? Does he have a reasonably wide re-raising range?

I'm not c/c'ing that turn. You're declaring that you have a hand that can not take much more heat, and this guy is willing to capitalize on weakness, it seems.

Check/call flop and lead turn is a scary line, and Villain is unlikely to make a move on you with a hand like AK in that spot. He's unlikely to flat call with it either, but this is a time when you don't mind folding out a worse hand when you would otherwise be subjected to a lot of pressure yourself.

I'd lead the turn for $44 and be done with it if he calls. You are too deep here to burn much with an unimproved JJ in a RR pot.

[/ QUOTE ]good post

I actually thought this same thing this morning...lead the turn- sure, its a bluff pretty much but villian isnt going to give up on this hand against me (that was my feel at the time)and Im not willing to felt JJ unimproved here.

FWIW, I hadnt noticed villian 3-bet a pot all night so I put him squarely on AK or QQ+

[Casper05]

[ QUOTE ]
so you suggest bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ] Our hand is a bluff catcher anyway, right?

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you suggest bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ] Our hand is a bluff catcher anyway, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, but if that is his 3b pf range, fold the flop, and if not, def fold the turn.

I still think there is more value in a check here. If he bets, you have the same info that you would if he raised or called, and if he checks, you can assume you are beating AK or dead to QQ and play the river accordingly (check).

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so you suggest bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ] Our hand is a bluff catcher anyway, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

sure, but if that is his 3b pf range, fold the flop, and if not, def fold the turn.

I still think there is more value in a check here. If he bets, you have the same info that you would if he raised or called, and if he checks, you can assume you are beating AK or dead to QQ and play the river accordingly (check).

[/ QUOTE ]

GTL,

I am suggesting a bet on the turn not based on a standard move there, but based on the following assumptions:

1) Villain is deep enough and we know enough about him to assign him a wider re-raising range preflop than QQ-AA, AK, and

2) Villain is aggressive, cleary targeting us, and will move us off the hand if we give him that opportunity.

Now, you can argue that because Villain seems to be going after us, we ought to c/c. But we are way too deep to stack off with JJ here, and Villain is not going to double us up with an unimproved AK or PP.

Under normal circumstances, I don't mind a c/f on the turn here. But given these factors, I prefer a turn lead. It will let Villain know you are serious about your holding, and I think it essentially eliminates his ability to bluff us off our hand. If he calls, we're not putting any more money into the pot.

[Casper05]

I really shouldnt have narrowed his range to QQ+ like I did in a previous post. 1) Although I havent seen him 3-bet PF before, I was multitabling so I could have missed it, and 2) Villian is obviously targeting me.

At the time my turn call only served the purpose of picking up another bet from an unimproved AK, which I now think is a mistake. Villian knows Im aggressive and my line screams "Please bluff me off this hand!!"

[kev123]

I would have played this hand a bit different.. I would prob have reraised preflop to $20 ( Ov if he comes over the top of that I`m folding ), I would come out betting 3/4 pot on flop..... if hes still there after that I`m prob done with the hand.

Based on his play with KK, &amp; the size of his reraise preflop I`m putting this guy on AK , I think with an aggression level of 3 hes quite happy to fire two barrels with AK without improving

Ov playing JJ in this way you sometimes lose the chance to catch trips, but also avoids getting into horrible situations when the flop comes low.

If I was to play JJ as you did , I would bet pot into him on the flop, c/c gives me no clues to the value of his hand.

[Casper05]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have played this hand a bit different.. I would prob have reraised preflop to $20 ( Ov if he comes over the top of that I`m folding ), I would come out betting 3/4 pot on flop..... if hes still there after that I`m prob done with the hand.

Based on his play with KK, &amp; the size of his reraise preflop I`m putting this guy on AK , I think with an aggression level of 3 hes quite happy to fire two barrels with AK without improving

Ov playing JJ in this way you sometimes lose the chance to catch trips, but also avoids getting into horrible situations when the flop comes low.

If I was to play JJ as you did , I would bet pot into him on the flop, c/c gives me no clues to the value of his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]ummm so youre going to min 4 bet PF, bluff the flop, and then give up to the 4th undercard?

As played, youre putting villian squarely on AK because of a normal sized 3-bet PF? THEN youre going to assume he's double barrel bluffing a 3-bet pot because he HAS TO have AK?

Sorry, but no.

[kev123]

If I 4 bet JJ pf &amp; don`t get rr, my flop bet is not a bluff. I`m betting out like I have the best hand &amp; he needs to improve. Should he call that bet I start thinking he may well be slow playing me with a bigger pp as I can`t see AK AQ AJ standing this heat. ( Anoter side to 4betting JJ like this is if an A flops &amp; he has KK or QQ he might let it go, I like to have control of the pot )

With regard to the normal sized 3bet.. the site I play on the betting goes nothing like this. standard raise is $3 ( $4 total ) , $3.50 just looks very fishy &amp; is not used very often.. standard 4bet is prob from $4 to $10. Guess different sites you expect different things.

If I just call preflop, I come out betting on this flop , not sure what you achieve by c/c a flop like this. If I`m in Villians shoes I would keep betting any hand I 3 bet with pf till you show some strength.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is a bad TAG who really really wants to stack me. We've gone at it a afew times and I've stacked him each time...222 vs his AA all in on flop, and 78 vs KK all in on a 456 flop. The KK hand he open pushed 110BB...he's bad.

For those that NEED stats, he is 18/10/3

Is the turn a fold? Hell, I almost folded the flop honestly...I didnt, and his turn bet smelled fishy

Full Tilt Poker
$0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter (http://www.legopoker.com/hh)

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
BTN: $25.35
SB: $109.75
BB: $71.8
UTG: $187.10
Hero (MP): $581.95
CO: $230.75

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> J/images/graemlins/spade.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($1.5, 6 players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $12</font>, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls $8.50

<font color="black">Flop:</font> 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($25.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $22</font>, Hero calls $22

<font color="black">Turn:</font> 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif [9/images/graemlins/heart.gif] ($69.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $31</font>, Hero calls $31

<font color="black">River:</font> 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif [K/images/graemlins/spade.gif] ($131.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets all in for $165.75</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $165.75 returned to CO

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold turn or push turn. Depends on read.

[Casper05]

[ QUOTE ]
If I 4 bet JJ pf &amp; don`t get rr, my flop bet is not a bluff. I`m betting out like I have the best hand &amp; he needs to improve. Should he call that bet I start thinking he may well be slow playing me with a bigger pp as I can`t see AK AQ AJ standing this heat. ( Anoter side to 4betting JJ like this is if an A flops &amp; he has KK or QQ he might let it go, I like to have control of the pot )

With regard to the normal sized 3bet.. the site I play on the betting goes nothing like this. standard raise is $3 ( $4 total ) , $3.50 just looks very fishy &amp; is not used very often.. standard 4bet is prob from $4 to $10. Guess different sites you expect different things.

If I just call preflop, I come out betting on this flop , not sure what you achieve by c/c a flop like this. If I`m in Villians shoes I would keep betting any hand I 3 bet with pf till you show some strength.

[/ QUOTE ]youre so incredibly wrong here. If youre going to just bet bet bet JJ in a 3-bet pot when I show no strength, please come to my tables. Put villian on a range please.

If youre going to 4-bet and then bet bet bet youre also dead freaking wrong. PUT VILLIAN ON A RANGE.

The PFR and RR are both VERY standard and are in accordance with FTP's "Bet Pot" button.

[kev123]

Villians range here is AK, AQ AJ , QQ+ ( May also include other hands if he wants to get involved with you due to previous hands ) , by 4 betting pf then firing at flop this helps me to narrow this range. As played you are no closer to narrowing his range as you haven`t asked any questions of him. I would sometimes also 4 bet AK like this.. if we both have AK I win the hand. If he has AA / KK I prob get a better indication preflop of this, so if flop comes A high or K high I don`t lose a big pot with it.

So as you can see I have villian, on a range. My reasons for 4 betting are ;

1. Take control of the pot
2. Help narrow his range

Ov I don`t always make the same play.

Against a LAA I`m more included to just call &amp; let him hang himself knowing that his pf range is much larger, but I`m prob gonna be check raising all in on the turn, if he has me beat then so be it.

[EddieRooo]

Most of what kev123 has said is pretty bad advice. Your are basically advocating in general winning the minimum from hands you beat (by for eg giving them no opportunity to bluff) and getting stacked from hands that beat you ("oh he only called my flop bet but thats not showing enough strength ill keep on betting turn and river")

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold turn or push turn. Depends on read.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is what seperates a bad/decent player from the good and the great ones.

You HAVE to go with your instinct here. No more free cards for him, you need to make a stand NOW or give up the pot. Calling here is very bad with your hand, although I don't it would be terrible if you flopped a set.

[kev123]

Eddie,

If you look at the previous post I made, I said that should I 4bet pf, then bet at flop ...should I get called on the flop I would prob be done with the hand as I can`t see a hand that I beat still being there at that point.

If i`m so wrong please can someone explain what you gain by just calling a TAG player in this situation... it all seems a bit passive to me, &amp; I can`t see how you are narrowing his range your not any closer to knowing if he has QQ+.

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
Eddie,

If you look at the previous post I made, I said that should I 4bet pf, then bet at flop ...should I get called on the flop I would prob be done with the hand as I can`t see a hand that I beat still being there at that point.

If i`m so wrong please can someone explain what you gain by just calling a TAG player in this situation... it all seems a bit passive to me, &amp; I can`t see how you are narrowing his range your not any closer to knowing if he has QQ+.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are turning your nice jacks into a total bluff. When you 4-bet preflop you are (99% of the time) only getting called by hand that are either a coinflip (AK) or have you horribly dominated. Once he calls your 4-bet preflop you might as well give up on the flop (yes even a low card flop) because you will usually be behind.

If you are so desperate to bluff 4-bet him, do it with trash like 75s or something. Stuff that can hit miracle (disguised) flops and you can fold if he pushes.


If you call his 3-bet and c/c his c-bet on a low card flop, most villains will give up with there overcards. This villain is apparantly gunning for you, so I like the c/c flop and lead the turn. If you c/c the turn you are going to be moved of the best hand a lot, or end up sticking it in with a huge underdog. Its basically pot control...

[2Paul2]

W/o any 3bet history I think you should c/f turn. These guys just don't double barrel that often(esp. in rr pots).

Paul

[Leviathan]

[ QUOTE ]

You are turning your nice jacks into a total bluff. When you 4-bet preflop you are (99% of the time) only getting called by hand that are either a coinflip (AK) or have you horribly dominated. Once he calls your 4-bet preflop you might as well give up on the flop (yes even a low card flop) because you will usually be behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't totally agree here.
Yes, i think 4 betting preflop is bad advice with jacks. But as he only min reraises, you can't say he will only get called by hands that dominate him. Any two cards will call in fact.
But what is bad with min reraising preflop is that it gives a chance to AK to push (vilain wants to impress hero so he could do that with AK), a better pair may reraise (we lose set value) and we won't get value from AK flop cbet.
So yes min reraising preflop looks bad IMO. Still better than making a standard pot reraise 4bet but really bad.

As played by OP, i'd fold on turn as i don't see vilain firing a second barrel on turn with AK or even TT. Even if he's not that clever he should have noticed by now that when you're involved in a pot that gets bigger, he has to be concerned about your holding.