QQ Flop

[shant]

I didn't play this hand. A TAG did.

Live 15/30 game. TAG doesn't have many reads, but the table in general is playing pretty loose. People have been making some loose coldcalls as the action has been multiway a lot. TAG mentioned that opponents could have "Any A or any face" here.

Preflop: TAG raises UTG+2 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP1 coldcalls, and MP3 3-bets. TAG decides to call for some reason. This is a 5-bet cap game. MP1 calls.

Flop (3 Players): K/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (9 SB)

What line should the TAG take on this flop?

[Bill C]

How about bet-call; check-fold UI?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
How about bet-call; check-fold UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this puts us in a position of putting in too much on the flop while simultaneously making it very easy for us to get bluffed off the best hand.

I am pretty sure that the best line on this flop does not involve betting...

[W. Deranged]

I think the flop play is definitely check-call. The pot is only three-handed. Going out of control to defend against gutshots or As is silly. We have two blockers against one of the gutshots and are holding the other. Many of the hands that have overcards against us have pairs as well, and won't be folding anyway. We're very often not ahead here.


So I see no reason to bet or raise the flop. Check-calling is right.

I also think we should probably check-call the turn improved as well. We often will have 6 outs and we're also going to be winning a small percentage of the time which we can factor in.

On the river, unimproved I like check-fold. Basically we should play the hand as a drawing hand, where we drawing to either: a) a card that improves our hand; b) the chance that our opponent will check his hand behind on the river an dlet us showdown for free. The combination of those two likelihoods make this worth taknig to the river.

If the turn gets raised or anything we should just revert into "pure drawing" mode, and make an assessment of whether our gutshot + set outs are enough to merit going further.

[ReptileHouse]

I check and call if it's only one back to me, folding if it's raised.

From there, it very much depends on if the turn card improves our hand or not. Barring reads, whether I call a turn bet is going to be based purely on pot odds with the assumption that I'm behind and drawing.

Similarly, on the river, it's check/fold unless I've hit the draw.

[GambleGamble]

I was the TAG who played this hand

I bet out the flop to see where I was, hoping any Ace may fold or mid pair

MP1 calls MP3 raises
I call MP1 Calls

Turn Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Now what do you do? Pots 7.5BB

[ReptileHouse]

Well, we made our hand. The problem is the flush draw and the straight draw just made theirs, too. We're also still behind to KK, which is very possible for MP3.

We need to procede very carefully here. We have a strong made hand with a truly gruesome board. Getting to showdown as cheaply as possible should be our goal.

I check here. As before, I'm calling one, probably folding if it's two back to me. I don't think donking here is going to accomplish much of anything.

[Fat Nicky]

I would bet the turn, and call down if raised.

Reasons I don't like checking (check/raising):
-If we check/raise and get 3-bet, we're likely behind, and I hate investing 3-bets while drawing
-If we're ahead, hands like AK or AA might check this through, that would suck

Reasons I like betting:
-If we're ahead to hands like AA, AK, KQ, QJ, etc...we gain value.
-If we're behing and get raised, we're only investing 2 bets to draw.

I don't see folding as an option yet...unless it goes, bet/raise/3-bet on the turn, I am folding the river u/i.

[GambleGamble]

So I hit my set, but all the problems arise with Straights Flushes, straight flushes etc.

So I bet to see where I am...I play aggresively and hate to check and see because you gain no info, checking allows checking behind on hands like 2 pair or just a big pair and if someones redrawing to the nut flush I give them a free card.

MP1 raises! and MP3 re-reraises!!
I call
MP1 reraises, MP3 calls
I call

Pot is now $585

River J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Now what?

[Sandberg]

Only hands the typical 3-bettor on the flop could have that we beat here are TT and AQ. AQ is unlikely because we have two Q's. That means we are behind against AA, KK, AK and JJ. Would preflop 3 bettor go to war preflop with AJ? Not sure without a good read. I think treating this with care is best. You have a gutshot and will probably wins if a T hits. Check and call the flop and reavalute the turn. If the pot isn't very big (and 6 SB preflop doesn't seem very large to me), I'd take this tack:

1) Check and Call the flop
2) Check and Fold the turn unimproved.

[TripleH68]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot is now $585

River J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to hide your excitement? And bet.

[GambleGamble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pot is now $585

River J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Now what?

[/ QUOTE ]


Try to hide your excitement? And bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet - It gets capped at $135 (MP3 is all in/I dont reraise at all)

Final pot - $990 or 33BB

I'm 3rd???

[chief444]

c/c

[GambleGamble]

Was there any point, I should have seriously considered folding...I seriously considered the flop but once the turn gave me the set and the river boated me I in it either way.

[ReptileHouse]

With that action, you can legitimately fold on every post-flop street, yes.

[cpk]

Once hero makes it to the river, what should his line be? I'm a little confused at this point. I think this pot is way too big to be check/folding, but there's very little either opponent can have other than precisely AXs and KK/JJ. I'd hate to be wrong and lose this monster pot. Check/calling seems lame to me, but I really feel like betting is just throwing money away.

[chief444]

Well...ok I just read through and it's a 9JJQK board with 3 spades not including the 9. You can't really fold the flop with the gutshot. The turn I guess thinking it through they aren't 3-betting with AA. So probably there is at least an argument for it. The river isn't going 5-bets with a flush vs. a straight. So probably there. But these ones are tough. By the time you realize what happened the pot's huge. So should you have folded at some point? Probably. Would I have? Probably not. Luckily these hands don't happen often.

[sfwusc]

which hand was it?

KK or JJ.

Basicly, I think you got short end of the stick if you lost. Should folded somewhere, but no one likely can/does. Not sure EV says you should either.

SFWUSC

[GambleGamble]

Finals Results
Board K /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif

MP1 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (cold call 2 PF from UTG+2)
MP3 K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero Q /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif