Caught Cheater Situation

[chisness]

This story has to do with poker, but the question involves how to react to this kid.

First some background: Last summer, friends would play tournaments at least once a week. These would be pretty big, averaging 20 people, occasionally 30 or so. The buyin is generally $20. The players are mostly my age (college soph now) or one year younger.

We almost always use 2 decks per table so SB is shuffling next deck that he'll be dealing when he's button next hand.

Kid a few years younger who sometimes plays tells us that he's seen kid my age named Jake looking through cards while shuffling. We're skeptical and don't say anything, but begin to look for this. Reports come in from others that they've seen suspicious moves by him in one of the next tournaments.

At this point, word spreads to everyone except his closer friends (so they don't warn/bring this up to him) so everyone is looking out for this now. (By this, I mean setting the deck while shuffling to give himself good cards.)

Next tournament starts and there's quickly a report of him doing this. No one says anything. Tournament gets to final table so everyone is now watching. Again, he's seen doing this and raises on the button. He's now told that we saw him cheating. He denies this. In true Rounders fashion, we look at his cards and see AA! He continues to deny this for a while until finally admitting he did cheat, but "this was the only time!"

This was of course very dramatic, with his close friends being in shock. He later admitted to giving others worse 2nd best hands. In one instance he gave himself top set vs. middle set, but middle set turned quads so he had to fold top boat! He also admitted this had been going on for quite a while, probably the whole summer (~20 tournaments).

He called and apologized to some and gave us back all of his buyins/winnings of nearly $400 that we had a freeroll for.

IMO him doing this repeatedly is about as scummy as it gets. I never really liked him, but would regularly see him when I hung out with his group. His closer friends have forgiven him and are back to normal with him. I don't care to ever see him again.

Am I wrong to never forgive him? If he was a close friend should I forgive him? Should I hang out with this group if he's there or avoid him entirely? Is this one of the dirtiest moves a kid could make to his friends?

[klepto]

forgive him, just don't ever play poker or trust him again.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I wrong to never forgive him?

[/ QUOTE ]
Was he sincere in his apology? If so, I think you'd be wrong to never forgive him. If he wasn't sincere and continues to cheat others, then you shouldn't forgive. Forgiveness must be asked for.

[gobboboy]

You can stop this sort of thing by having the CO shuffle the deck he just dealt.

[csuf_gambl0r]

this is what we call guilty by association.

he is a scumbag, therefore anyone thats his friend are also scumbags. Do not hang out with them.

btw, you mentioned that you guys caught him rounders style, so why didn't you guys beat his azz rounders style? you gotta stay with the flow.

[chisness]

[ QUOTE ]
this is what we call guilty by association.

he is a scumbag, therefore anyone thats his friend are also scumbags. Do not hang out with them.

btw, you mentioned that you guys caught him rounders style, so why didn't you guys beat his azz rounders style? you gotta stay with the flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

csuf,

I kind of would like to do that, but the people hanging out with him are pretty close friends, at least a few of them. I disagree with them, but won't forfeit all the friendships over that. One situation came up was that cheater had them over for New Year's. It was a clear decision for me to have nothing to do with this and am leaning towards not going to any sort of event that he's at, even if it's not his house.

That was heavily debated afterwards, with everyone basically saying they didn't want to start it. I wasn't actually there for the catching, though really wish I was. He should've at least gotten a seized wallet!

[chisness]

[ QUOTE ]
You can stop this sort of thing by having the CO shuffle the deck he just dealt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but everyone playing was friends, so there was never any thought put into it except that it's a bit easier for SB to do it.

[chisness]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I wrong to never forgive him?

[/ QUOTE ]
Was he sincere in his apology? If so, I think you'd be wrong to never forgive him. If he wasn't sincere and continues to cheat others, then you shouldn't forgive. Forgiveness must be asked for.

[/ QUOTE ]

He never apologized to me. He has IM'd me a couple times, which I've ignored. I even took the significant step of defriending him on facebook!

[Gunny Highway]

[ QUOTE ]
I even took the significant step of defriending him on facebook!

[/ QUOTE ]

That'll teach him!

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
forgive him, just don't ever play poker or trust him again.

[/ QUOTE ]

[P.Dirty]

*

[Blarg]

Forgiving is one thing, but never be stupid enough to forget.

And remember this wasn't a one-time thing with him either, but apparently went on for a long time.

Me, I think it's particularly bad that he did this to his friends. I'm not fond of him from what you've told me. However, I think you can't say he never apologized to you and then say you ignored his messages. Sounds like you cut him off at the knees there. Not saying he necessarily deserves the chance, but it looks like you didn't give it to him. So you can't go saying he never tried, because you just don't know, and the fault for that belongs on your own shoulders.

[sightless]

Why cant someone just cut the deck that the Sb shuffles?

[chisness]

Yeah, he called a bunch of people to apologize within weeks of the incident. He didn't IM me till a few months later.

[send_the_msg]

i don't know why anyone would forgive this person. actively cheating his friends for a summer in what i assume is just a very friendly game. seems like a total ass to me. would you still be friends with someone who is constantly stealing money from your wallet?

[dlk9s]

[ QUOTE ]
Why cant someone just cut the deck that the Sb shuffles?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Raul Wong]

HAHAHAHA

I am just wondering how retarded you all must have been to not notice this. I mean, for some reason I am going to imagine that this kid probably didn’t go about this in the most discreet fashion. I can see him now with his head below the table scrambling to organize the cards before the next deal. HEY SARGE, WE GOT HANGER! [censored] idiots...

You should have taken the 400 he gave you then you and your friends should have gone outside and [censored] up his car. Then kicked him in the balls, light his clothes on fire and make him walk home naked in the snow...uphill. You then could keep trying by him honking and screaming boo-ya out the window. Teach that little [censored] a lession...

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHA

I am just wondering how retarded you all must have been to not notice this. I mean, for some reason I am going to imagine that this kid probably didn’t go about this in the most discreet fashion. I can see him now with his head below the table scrambling to organize the cards before the next deal. HEY SARGE, WE GOT HANGER! [censored] idiots...


[/ QUOTE ]

Raul - do you play in a home game with buddies? Since there's a base level of trust there: 1) no one's looking for it and 2) you need to firmly establish the dude is cheating before bringing it up, and that's tough to do.

-Al

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
forgive him, just don't ever play poker or trust him again.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

One other thing about the tourney - we always use 2 decks and have the sb shuffle. However, it's mandatory that before he actually deals, the CO has to cut the deck. The desk must also stay on top of the table the whole time (shuffle, cut, deal, etc)

And he definitely needs a good nut-kicking.

[hyde]

In a group of 20 there is always at least one person to be watched. My own sister cheats at monoply.....
There is no game casual enough to let the next dealer shuffle the cards.
If the apology was sincere I would probably forgive him, he is young enough to be stupid due to age.
I'd probably even play cards with him if he wasn't an arsehole. I'd cut the deck every time though.....

MY cheating story:
College, freshman year, game was hearts. I had everyone else over 100 and I had 0.....a perfect game. I dropped a middleing card in my muck and picked up a 5 of spades or something really low. It won the last trick, spoiled the perfect game and I have never cheated since.

[TheCroShow]

[ QUOTE ]
btw, you mentioned that you guys caught him rounders style, so why didn't you guys beat his azz rounders style? you gotta stay with the flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

[utmt40]

[ QUOTE ]
*

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should start giving *'s to the people who only reply with a *

[P.Dirty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should start giving *'s to the people who only reply with a *

[/ QUOTE ]

Die please. You obviously don't have a sense of humor.

P.

[utmt40]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should start giving *'s to the people who only reply with a *

[/ QUOTE ]

Die please. You obviously don't have a sense of humor.

P.

[/ QUOTE ]

YSSCKY

[henrikrh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should start giving *'s to the people who only reply with a *

[/ QUOTE ]

Die please. You obviously don't have a sense of humor.

P.

[/ QUOTE ]

YSSCKY

[/ QUOTE ]

*cough* oot *cough* survivor *cough*

I didn't say nuthing.

[_TKO_]

He made a respectable move once he was caught. Forgive him.
He cheated you all for months at a time. Don't get fooled again.

[ilya]

What exactly would "never forgiving" him involve in this scenario? Not letting him play in any game of yours ever again? Not talking to him? Punching him whenever you see him? Trying to ruin his life? There are many levels of unforgiveness...

[P.Dirty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should start giving *'s to the people who only reply with a *

[/ QUOTE ]

Die please. You obviously don't have a sense of humor.

P.

[/ QUOTE ]

YSSCKY

[/ QUOTE ]

*cough* oot *cough* survivor *cough*

I didn't say nuthing.

[/ QUOTE ]

bring it.

[Reef]

[ QUOTE ]
I even took the significant step of defriending him on facebook!

[/ QUOTE ]

omfg you heartless bastard!

[ScottieK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I even took the significant step of defriending him on facebook!

[/ QUOTE ]

omfg you heartless bastard!

[/ QUOTE ]

This belongs in the "dickest move" thread.

Don't know what OP should do with Worm. If it was my home game, I'd ban him from playing for a while. If the other friends involved want to bring him back after that while, I would listen to arguments, and ALWAYS cut his cards a couple times (which is a good idea in any home game.)

ScottieK

[BluffTHIS!]

It is bad on you and your friends for not having proper dealing procedures with cutting the deck and watching how dealers hold the deck, and whether they are peeking as they shuffle. So make sure that is straightened out, especially if you ever play for even more money.

Cheats are only sorry that they got caught, and that the gravy train has come to an end, and are only grateful when they don't get their ass beat when caught. But once a cheat always a cheat. Don't let the guy play with you again, because even if you don't let him deal, cheats are always looking for other ways to get over on you, like bringing in someone else who then deals the big hands to him, or with whom to make collusive moves. And just because he gave the money back doesn't mean [censored]. He owed you all that. If you and your friends willingly let him play again you are fools.

[chisness]

[ QUOTE ]
What exactly would "never forgiving" him involve in this scenario? Not letting him play in any game of yours ever again? Not talking to him? Punching him whenever you see him? Trying to ruin his life? There are many levels of unforgiveness...

[/ QUOTE ]

ilya,

This would mean not hanging out with again.

[suzzer99]

This guy must be pretty damn good to be dealing himself and others specific hands, w/o it being totally obvious. I think I'd forgive him just to teach me how to do it (not that I would use it, but pretty cool to know).

But somehow he was good enough to go ahead and fix the rest of the board? I guess that's possible. And who doesn't cut the deck? Several aspects of OP's story are curious to me.

[ScottieK]

[ QUOTE ]
This guy must be pretty damn good to be dealing himself and others specific hands, w/o it being totally obvious. I think I'd forgive him just to teach me how to do it (not that I would use it, but pretty cool to know).

But somehow he accidentally gave one of the 2nd bests quads? Then KNEW he gave that person quads so he FOLDED top FH? And who doesn't cut the deck? Several aspects of OP's story make no sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing he set up the hands and the flop, but got rivered. I am also wondering how he got away with this for so long...either he's a real mechanic or nobody's paying attention.

ScottieK

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
This guy must be pretty damn good to be dealing himself and others specific hands, w/o it being totally obvious. I think I'd forgive him just to teach me how to do it (not that I would use it, but pretty cool to know).

But somehow he accidentally gave one of the 2nd bests quads? Then KNEW he gave that person quads so he FOLDED top FH? And who doesn't cut the deck? Several aspects of OP's story make no sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

He gave himself KK and another QQ and had the flop come KQ5, but didn't intend on the 4th Q coming on later streets.

[suzzer99]

Yeah I figured that out after I posted, edited my post so I didn't look so dumb. Still wondering who doesn't cut the deck, unless he switched them after a cut or something?

[StacysMom]

I play with friends in 5 dollar rebuys. If someone were to be a semi-nondowny cheater, they would get away with it forever. In friendly games ppl just arent looking for it.

Ex: One time it was 5 handed and I stacked the deck aa/KK/QQ/JJ, and rofled as everyone got allin and flipped their hands. Note I have zero discreetness. I dug through the deck face up, find appropriate cards, weaved them, then mock shuffled a few times. Obviously everyone instantly knew I f'ed with the deck and we redealt. Imagine if someone had skill in a game like this, the [censored] the could do.

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
I play with friends in 5 dollar rebuys. If someone were to be a semi-nondowny cheater, they would get away with it forever. In friendly games ppl just arent looking for it.

Ex: One time it was 5 handed and I stacked the deck aa/KK/QQ/JJ, and rofled as everyone got allin and flipped their hands. Note I have zero discreetness. I dug through the deck face up, find appropriate cards, weaved them, then mock shuffled a few times. Obviously everyone instantly knew I f'ed with the deck and we redealt. Imagine if someone had skill in a game like this, the [censored] the could do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me and my friends do stuff like this all the time when messing around in home games. People aren't paying attention looking for cheaters. I'll never forget the time I set my friend up with a Royal Flush, we both got all in on the river, and at the showdown after he plopped down his Royal, I said "Not quite good enough" and tabled a Joker and an Instruction card. Priceless.

[suzzer99]

So no one cuts in your games?

[theben]

i'd never forgive him. you went light on him. if it were up to me, he'd be sitting in a pool of his won blood right now

[TomHimself]

its 10x easier for the CO to shuffle and then have someone cut.

[chisness]

[ QUOTE ]
This guy must be pretty damn good to be dealing himself and others specific hands, w/o it being totally obvious. I think I'd forgive him just to teach me how to do it (not that I would use it, but pretty cool to know).

But somehow he was good enough to go ahead and fix the rest of the board? I guess that's possible. And who doesn't cut the deck? Several aspects of OP's story are curious to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suzzer,

I never actually saw it but I believe he was simply doing it under the table. As others have said, no one looks out for this and no one cuts decks. I don't think many home games do this, especially ones with only friends playing.

[Lottery Larry]

Chop off his head, stick it on a sharp fence post as a warning to future scum?

Or is that too extreme a reaction?
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bernie]

Simple. I'd be done with him. He cheated you and your buds. For a long time. He should just be thankful he didn't get put into a coma.

If I ran into him at another friends place, I'd be cordial, but I wouldn't trust the little prick. I could yap with him and such, but I wouldn't be getting into anything with him that I'd have to trust him with anything, especially monetarily. Even something simple as him collecting money and going for a beer run. Nothing.

If your 'friends' give you crap about it, they are without balls and deserve the piece of sh*t and anything else he does to them. There's just no excuse for what he did. He knew it was wrong when he was doing it. If they think you shouldn't be harsh on him for this, screw 'em. If they want to be all nice and warm to him, fine. They have no stance to really ask you to do the same and should respect your position on it. If they don't respect that, see ya to them too. They can have him.

It would take a long, long time to trust this guy again. There are more than enough people in this world that I would rather spend time with. Other than chance meetings or seeing him at a buds, he wouldn't even be on my radar.

b

[NhlNut]

A shunning is in order.

[The Young Gun]

In this situation just adjust to it. I mean guys poker isn't the end all be all to life. OP could have to deal with him sometime in the near future and I think the opinions we are giving him is that HE STOLE SO YOU CAN NEVER TALK TO HIM AGHAIN.

I have had some friends who were addicted to drugs try to steal from me. When they sobered up they all came to apologize and compensate me for what they had done. Sometimes you just need to let them see the wrongness of their actions, it doesn't mean the person is inherently bad.

[gilbert]

that's pretty cool that he gave back his winnings and was really honest about everything.

however, i would have cut his ass.

[ECDub]

If the cheater would have been honest about the cheating on his own, it would be different. In this case, he was caught, then he came clean. He is a cheater, a liar, and stealing from "friends" did not seem to weigh heavily on his consience. These are pretty severe character flaws you should beware of, especially in college.

We had a guy do something similar when I was a freshman and he was basically alienated for the next 4 years. His name on campus was "Rat" Brad and people still call him Rat Brad.

I would just distance myself from the guy and if you have to see him in a class or anything...you have to do what you have to do. I would make sure he knew I was not the one to go to when he needs a favor. At the same time, you don't need to go out of your way to be super pissed at the guy. It doesn't seem like you're harboring any real anger toward the guy. That's good, just stay mellow and watch out for the guy and you'll be fine.

[pokerstudAA]

[ QUOTE ]
its 10x easier for the CO to shuffle and then have someone cut.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what we do. The dealer is handed a shuffled deck from the previous dealer.
The SB cuts. Alot of visiting players have told us it is backwards but it makes alot of sense.

[octop]

I just wanted to point out to the guy with the "Jeter sucks Arod" avitar that taking out last syllable of each of Manny Ramierez's names he becomes Man Rammer which is exactly what he is.

[budman]

This kid is no good. He was willing to cheat his friends repeatedly and will do it again.

Do not forgive him, you'll be sorry.

[MikeSmith]

Lord knows what other kind of stuff this guy has pulled. He seems like the type to take home his best friends drunk girlfriend and bang her but thats me. There are too many people in this world to be your friend to waste time with douches like this.