$25 NL - AKs in EP - Weirdest hand ever [Archive]

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Manchild84

01-02-2007, 09:15 PM

A few questions:
1) Do I push for the re-raise Preflop?
2) Checking F/T OK?
3) What did everyone have?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($16.15)
BB ($8.45)
Hero ($25)
UTG+1 ($55.60)
MP1 ($72)
MP2 ($46.95)
CO ($20.65)
Button ($36.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 raises to $1.75, MP1 calls $1.75, 2 folds, Button calls $1.75, SB calls $1.65, BB folds, Hero raises to $6, UTG+1 calls $4.25, MP1 calls $4.25, Button calls $4.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($26) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($26) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

River: ($26) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $10, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $36

My thinking is that a C-Bet does no good, even an open push would probably get called, as someone should have an overpair there.
This was honestly one the weirdest hands that I can remember playing, as you generally dont get that many people to the flop when the pre flop raising gets so big.

Thoughts?

LayZ

01-02-2007, 09:22 PM

1) I don't like a push with AKs without reads anytime
2) With so many in the hand I don't think you have much choice, some of these goons must have a big pair
3) Two of them probably donks who don't want to fold two broadway cards, and another with some kind of pocket pair.

But you're right this is hella weird hand, and I'm just guessing.

emeraldice

01-02-2007, 09:30 PM

I probably either reraise bigger or call preflop, if UTG+1 is donk enough to minreraise like that he's def calling a reasonable reraise, and the players after him will have better odds to call. After flop/turn/river you played it fine.
OOP do people prefer a big reraise or a call here PF? I'd usually reraise pretty big.

CrustyFace

01-02-2007, 09:33 PM

Whoah, lotsa preflop action lol. I'd have played it the same.

4_2_it

01-02-2007, 09:34 PM

I'd just shove this pre-flop. You have equity against everything except AA which is unlikely given how pre-flop went.

As played, you really can't c-bet. I'd check the river and hope somebody takes a stab at it.

corsakh

01-02-2007, 09:41 PM

Mm... this is quite hilarious actually.

I'm not sure what I would do preflop. But I probably would not try reraising this again, since if there were so many people calling the donkreraise, there will be some willing to call your 4bet.

Even if you manage to go heads up, you will not get called a worse hand. And you will be playing the flop for you stack OOP.

A push is a good option though. This way you avoid making difficult decisions OOP and most likely will be at worst in a coin flip situtaion with some pocket pair, AA and KK are not very likely. With all this dead money already in the pot, I actually think its better than calling.

KEW

01-02-2007, 09:59 PM

PF shove it in and IMO its not even close..When the action get back to you there is $8+ in the pot a standard raise would be in the $10-13 range and if you are going to commit the % of your stack you are much better off pushing..AK is a hand that wants to see and benefits greatly from seeing 5 cards..The AI PF is even more profitable with all the likely dead money in the pot should you get called..

As played check the river..

Speedlimits

01-02-2007, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A few questions:
1) Do I push for the re-raise Preflop?
2) Checking F/T OK?
3) What did everyone have?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($16.15)
BB ($8.45)
Hero ($25)
UTG+1 ($55.60)
MP1 ($72)
MP2 ($46.95)
CO ($20.65)
Button ($36.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, UTG+1 raises to $1.75, MP1 calls $1.75, 2 folds, Button calls $1.75, SB calls $1.65, BB folds, Hero raises to $6, UTG+1 calls $4.25, MP1 calls $4.25, Button calls $4.25, SB folds.

Flop: ($26) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($26) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks.

River: ($26) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $10, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $36

My thinking is that a C-Bet does no good, even an open push would probably get called, as someone should have an overpair there.
This was honestly one the weirdest hands that I can remember playing, as you generally dont get that many people to the flop when the pre flop raising gets so big.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Push pre flop.

pineapple888

01-02-2007, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF shove it in and IMO its not even close..When the action get back to you there is $8+ in the pot a standard raise would be in the $10-13 range and if you are going to commit the % of your stack you are much better off pushing..AK is a hand that wants to see and benefits greatly from seeing 5 cards..The AI PF is even more profitable with all the likely dead money in the pot should you get called..

As played check the river..

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, IMHO, it IS even close.

Problems with your approach are:

1.) you are a clear dog to any underpair even if your outs are live, plus
2.) some of your outs are very likely to be dead, plus
3.) AA and KK have you in sad shape, plus
4.) you are very likely to get called in at least one spot, plus
5.) your pot odds really aren't that great even with the dead money

The frequent times you end up drawing thin to a split with another AK vs. QQ, a call preflop is going to look a whole lot better. There are times to shove AK but this sure doesn't look like one of them to me.

pineapple888

01-02-2007, 10:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AA and KK are not very likely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure how you reach this conclusion when you have been minreraised by UTG+1 at an 8-person table.

4_2_it

01-02-2007, 10:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

1.) you are a clear dog to any underpair even if your outs are live,

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 55/45 and with the dead money pushing is +EV

[ QUOTE ]
2.) some of your outs are very likely to be dead, plus

[/ QUOTE ]

That means that they are dead for villain as well and hero then has villain outkicked. Pushing against a villain drawing to a 3-outer is mucho ++++EV.

[ QUOTE ]
3.) AA and KK have you in sad shape,

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly unlikely given the action. If someone is bad enough to play AA and KK multi-way then make a note and stack them later.

[ QUOTE ]
4.) you are very likely to get called in at least one spot

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? AK doesn't mind (i.e. has sufficient equity) a call by any hand that isn't AA.

[ QUOTE ]
5.) your pot odds really aren't that great even with the dead money

[/ QUOTE ]

The more that call the better your odds, but hero has sufficient equity against a lone caller.

[ QUOTE ]
There are times to shove AK but this sure doesn't look like one of them to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If not here, then I doubt you will ever find one that isn't against a short stack or a 80/60 type villain.

Throw in some FE and this is really a pretty easy shove. Sure it is high variance, but as long as hero is rolled for this level then I can think of much worse places to drop 1 buy-in.

wingchunflush

01-02-2007, 10:27 PM

grunch
seems fine to me. I think the PF shove is bad, a c-bet is a very bad idea as well. I think you played it just fine.
NH

KEW

01-02-2007, 10:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PF shove it in and IMO its not even close..When the action get back to you there is $8+ in the pot a standard raise would be in the $10-13 range and if you are going to commit the % of your stack you are much better off pushing..AK is a hand that wants to see and benefits greatly from seeing 5 cards..The AI PF is even more profitable with all the likely dead money in the pot should you get called..

As played check the river..

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, IMHO, it IS even close.

Problems with your approach are:

1.) you are a clear dog to any underpair even if your outs are live, plus
.
.

You are in a +EV position if you called by any pair QQ and smaller...
.
.

2.) some of your outs are very likely to be dead, plus
.
.

This may well be true but based on the overcaller are more likely to have small pairs..
.
.

3.) AA and KK have you in sad shape, plus
.
.
.

In this situation you are only really in bad shape against AA..AKs vs KK is only a 2 to 1 dog..This is a major reason to get AI PF so you see all 5 cards..
.
.
.

4.) you are very likely to get called in at least one spot, plus
.
.

That's fine..W/AA & KK being unlikely from anybody other then the RRer..And since we hold both and A and a K the odds of a pair of them being out there is even less..And based on the PF action unlikely..
.
.

5.) your pot odds really aren't that great even with the dead money
.
.
.

This is not true the dead money makes AK a clear money winner vs ALL underpair..You are in a coin flip getting better the 1 to 1 on your money..Your push will also make smaller pairs incorectly fold..
.
.
.

The frequent times you end up drawing thin to a split with another AK vs. QQ, a call preflop is going to look a whole lot better. There are times to shove AK but this sure doesn't look like one of them to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your not shoveing AKs here when are you???

Calling in this situation is very bad..Its giving 4 villains the correct implied odds to get your stack..With this much money going in PF you will not be able to get away from a TP hand w/o losing all your money stack sizes will be too small..

corsakh

01-02-2007, 10:48 PM

Its not even 45/55, its better due to suitedness.

Manchild84

01-03-2007, 12:10 AM

My main thinking behind not shoving was that I wouldn't have a full 6 live outs, and there would surely be underpairs calling (MP1 told me he had JJ after the fact.)
The part in NLHETAP about AK being a great hand to push with came to mind as well.
Very surprised that the overpairs to the board didn't bet this flop, but my raise might of convinced them of KK/AA.
Regardless, I'm sure I won't see a hand like this for awhile, but probably a nice example of when to shove with AK (although Pineapple made some good points about not shoving).
Thanks for all the input.

pineapple888

01-03-2007, 04:51 AM

Sigh.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1.) you are a clear dog to any underpair even if your outs are live,

[/ QUOTE ]

You are 55/45 and with the dead money pushing is +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 43% pot odds and are 46% to win IF all your outs are live AND IF no villain has AA/KK. Not much of an edge there. Add in FE, but don't forget to subtract the IF cases above. Still a tiny edge if any, IMHO.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2.) some of your outs are very likely to be dead, plus

[/ QUOTE ]

That means that they are dead for villain as well and hero then has villain outkicked. Pushing against a villain drawing to a 3-outer is mucho ++++EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, you really think a weaker Ace is calling you here? I'm talking about pairs, where the weaker Aces fold, along with some of your outs, not to mention another AK showing up, which you can add to the IFs above.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3.) AA and KK have you in sad shape,

[/ QUOTE ]

Highly unlikely given the action. If someone is bad enough to play AA and KK multi-way then make a note and stack them later.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said in another post, you are 8-handed, you raised UTG, and UTG+1 minreraised you. What range do you put him on for that action? I'm not talking about the other Villains for AA/KK really, although it wouldn't shock me.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4.) you are very likely to get called in at least one spot

[/ QUOTE ]

So what? AK doesn't mind (i.e. has sufficient equity) a call by any hand that isn't AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um. No. See above.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
5.) your pot odds really aren't that great even with the dead money

[/ QUOTE ]

The more that call the better your odds, but hero has sufficient equity against a lone caller.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um. No on both counts. See above, plus AK vs. AK vs. QQ for example.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are times to shove AK but this sure doesn't look like one of them to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If not here, then I doubt you will ever find one that isn't against a short stack or a 80/60 type villain.

Throw in some FE and this is really a pretty easy shove. Sure it is high variance, but as long as hero is rolled for this level then I can think of much worse places to drop 1 buy-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Drop away. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pineapple888

01-03-2007, 04:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Its not even 45/55, its better due to suitedness.

[/ QUOTE ]

46% vs. QQ.

pineapple888

01-03-2007, 05:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If your not shoveing AKs here when are you???

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally irrelevant.

[ QUOTE ]

Calling in this situation is very bad..Its giving 4 villains the correct implied odds to get your stack..With this much money going in PF you will not be able to get away from a TP hand w/o losing all your money stack sizes will be too small..

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you can't have it both ways. Either there is enough money in there that I don't mind the reverse implied odds, or there isn't, so I can find a fold.

Plus this point is also irrelevant, if shoving is -EV, which I think is quite likely.

Saying calling is "very bad" is absurdly ridiculous in any case, even if you don't agree with all of my points described in other posts. This is a relatively close decision, as much as the AINECs might disagree.

corsakh

01-03-2007, 05:05 AM

Your numbers are biased,

AKs vs 88 is not 45/55. It is 47.7 vs 52.3.

Hence no point reading further.

pineapple888

01-03-2007, 05:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your numbers are biased,

AKs vs 88 is not 45/55. It is 47.7 vs 52.3.

Hence no point reading further.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOL. Try broadway pairs, genius. That's what you should be worried about here.

flo

01-03-2007, 05:38 AM

You get called by AQ and several underpairs, which makes a shove +ev.

pineapple888

01-03-2007, 05:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You get called by AQ and several underpairs, which makes a shove +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played against a whole bunch of uberdonks, and even they generally know to fold AQ here.

dodgybob

01-03-2007, 06:30 AM

Easiest pf shove, ever.

corsakh

01-03-2007, 07:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your numbers are biased,

AKs vs 88 is not 45/55. It is 47.7 vs 52.3.

Hence no point reading further.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOLOL. Try broadway pairs, genius. That's what you should be worried about here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is micro NL. Your chances to see a broadway pair here is one in a million. Today I've been reraised by T7o and 83o just to name a few.

But lets give them a bit of credit.

Lets say villains range is 22+, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ. And its not even close to this good. Its more like 22+, Ax+, KT+, 56s+, 64s+.

Our equity if we get it HU is 55/45. Try our equity against 3 players on this range. Put some dead money in the pot. Add some folding equity. And the fact your not gonna get called by the best hand, your gonna get called by the craziest maniac of them all.

4_2_it

01-03-2007, 10:30 AM

Pineapple,

I applaud your efforts, but pushing here with AK is +EV. If you dislike the variance than that's your prerogative, but +EV is +EV. Pushing small edges is what builds bankrolls.

If you have NLT&P, I suggest you look in the concepts and weapons section regarding AK. I think I have been doing a poor job of explaining it here.

mbsocc1346

01-03-2007, 11:07 AM

Push preflop