25Nl 6M JJ oop Who C-bets here?

[MegalomaniaMan]

Two questions: should jj be played for set value against a (likely) two opponents oop and why..
and should this flop be c-bet into the two opponents?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($25)
Button ($51.75)
SB ($23.15)
Hero ($25.65)
UTG ($22.90)
MP ($23)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, UTG calls $1.75, CO calls $1.50.

Flop: ($6.10) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
hero?

[Imrahil]

I think you have to check here. If the flop was 27K then I would cbet but with the K and the T and the spades up there I don't want to build a pot OOP.

[Quester]

I typically c-bet unless I have a specific reason not to (reads are very critical when c-betting).

Against 2 unknowns including 1 poster who minraised, I c-bet this all day long. Hero leads for $4, and slows down versus resistance.

[BukNaked36]

With your reraise, you're repping AA, KK, AK.

You're in position. If both villians check, I c-bet.

As far as reraising JJ preflop, you just have to be willing to accept this situation if you're going to do it.

[Imrahil]

[ QUOTE ]
With your reraise, you're repping AA, KK, AK.

You're in position. If both villians check, I c-bet.

As far as reraising JJ preflop, you just have to be willing to accept this situation if you're going to do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is in the BB and OOP.

[Unknown Soldier]

check here, too coordinated and you're oop, if someone calls you really won't know where you stand and can be easily bluffed

[Triggerle]

I c-bet here almost 100% of the time unless I have a read that either one of my opponents likes to call c-bets a lot. A typical opponent will lay down every non-K, no-set hand except AT,AA and two spades. Many will probably lay down weak kings, too.

Don't 3-bet JJ pre-flop if you play only for set value. You will lose too much the 7 out of 8 times you don't flop a set. You would have to stack someone for 80BB+ virtually every time you flop your set to make it show a profit.

Edit: Soldier, if you 3-bet OOP you have to be prepared to c-bet OOP. 3-betting and then checking is not good IMHO.

[Sean Fraley]

You are OOP against 2 opponents with 2 possible draws. Do not c-bet here, since one of the profitable characteristics of the micros is the tendency for people to chase draws and chances are that someone has at least one of them.

I like the reraise preflop.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
You are OOP against 2 opponents with 2 possible draws. Do not c-bet here, since one of the profitable characteristics of the micros is the tendency for people to chase draws and chances are that someone has at least one of them.

I like the reraise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If at least one of them is chasing a draw, why do you want to offer them infinite odds to do so?

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
If at least one of them is chasing a draw, why do you want to offer them infinite odds to do so?


[/ QUOTE ]

For pretty much the same reasons that I wouldn't bet out second pair when I'm OOP to charge draws. Yes, we reraised preflop, but were met with one caller and one who cold-called, which means that they either a) have something good or b) call down way too much.

We might fold the former, assuming that KK or AK isn't present. It is actually the latter that makes this a dangerous situation. If there is a flush draw and a gutshot draw out there, we're running about 52% to win the hand, assuming that no one pairs a queen in the course of the turn and river. If both draws are out and the straight draw is open-ended, were about 46% to win. If we're up against someone who will call down with top pair, we're also screwed.

Simply put, hero needs to let this one go and wait till the general situation is more in his favor.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
For pretty much the same reasons that I wouldn't bet out second pair when I'm OOP to charge draws. Yes, we reraised preflop, but were met with one caller and one who cold-called, which means that they either a) have something good or b) call down way too much.

We might fold the former, assuming that KK or AK isn't present. It is actually the latter that makes this a dangerous situation. If there is a flush draw and a gutshot draw out there, we're running about 52% to win the hand, assuming that no one pairs a queen in the course of the turn and river. If both draws are out and the straight draw is open-ended, were about 46% to win. If we're up against someone who will call down with top pair, we're also screwed.

Simply put, hero needs to let this one go and wait till the general situation is more in his favor.

[/ QUOTE ]


Odds of winning the hand when all the cards are out != odds of dragging in the pot. Edit: The proper c-bet will give draws bad odds to call, making their calls a mistake (which makes us money).

Hero re-raised before the flop. He's representing a premium hand, and the K on the board is scary to anyone who doesn't have a K with a decent kicker in the hole.

Giving draws free cards is a good way to toss money into the pit, IMO. I c-bet here to take it down.

[ihtfp]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't 3-bet JJ pre-flop if you play only for set value. You will lose too much the 7 out of 8 times you don't flop a set.

Soldier, if you 3-bet OOP you have to be prepared to c-bet OOP. 3-betting and then checking is not good IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I think your fold equity here is pretty solid.

Check/calling here is weak because you don't know where you stand and you will have tons of problems later on in the hand:
1) To get to a showdown you will bleed money to people who value bet well with top pair.
2) You might get pushed off the best hand by an aggressive postflop player.
3) You give drawers free cards.

I think a good line here is to cbet this flop and then shut down with no further reads. You've represented a strong enough hand that most villains will fold to a decent sized cbet without a king or two spades. If you have reads that help you tell which the villain has (i.e. how aggressively he plays draws vs. made hands) then this can still be a profitable situation for you.

[Sektor]

First time poster here, but you gotta start some time i guess.

I can see why a c-bet would be appropiate here, because you don't want to tell the two guys in position "please take my money, i don't like this flop", but there are two people who called your preflop reraise so chances are they've got a hand that will get you in trouble.

You could try a c-bet, hoping they don't have that king and will fold to you, but if they call you, i'd check the turn and bail if they bet. I think it's hard to play your jacks OOP.

[silly_monkey]

I would bet 2/3 pot here all day against 2 unknowns. I'm constantly suprised at how often a c-bet takes down a pot at these stakes. Sure, they might have a K or a flush draw, but they probably don't and might even fold a better hand like a weak K. If I get raised or called I'll probably just give up OOP. You only need to take the pot down 40% of the time for a 2/3 pot bet to be EV neutral, and I think you will take this pot down more often than that.

I also agree with the earlier poster that you should re-raise a bit more pre-flop because you are OOP.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
Odds of winning the hand when all the cards are out != odds of dragging in the pot. Edit: The proper c-bet will give draws bad odds to call, making their calls a mistake (which makes us money).

Hero re-raised before the flop. He's representing a premium hand, and the K on the board is scary to anyone who doesn't have a K with a decent kicker in the hole.

Giving draws free cards is a good way to toss money into the pit, IMO. I c-bet here to take it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you didn't notice that I brought up reasons other than the draws.

1) Two people called preflop.

2) One of them cold called a 3-bet.

3) People who call and cold-call 3-bets are quite likely to overvalue marginal holdings.

4) These kind of people will overvalue their TP whatever kicker, and not fold to our c-bet. We are likely to be putting money in as a loser against opponents who are unlikely to fold hand that beat us.

5) These sorts of players are also likely to chase, which means that we have a good chance to be in a situation that can serve as a textbook example of reverse implied odds (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=8121403&amp; Searchpage=1&amp;Main=8121403&amp;Words=Concept+EMcWilliam s&amp;topic=&amp;Search=true#Post8121403). Remember, being in a reverse implied odds situation is bad.

Now, in the face of these facts, can you tell me why it is so damn urgent to bet here that hero can't fold and wait for an opportunity where fewer factor are against him?

[ybother]

[ QUOTE ]
First time poster here, but you gotta start some time i guess.

I can see why a c-bet would be appropiate here, because you don't want to tell the two guys in position "please take my money, i don't like this flop", but there are two people who called your preflop reraise so chances are they've got a hand that will get you in trouble.

You could try a c-bet, hoping they don't have that king and will fold to you, but if they call you, i'd check the turn and bail if they bet. I think it's hard to play your jacks OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wish my first post made this much sense, welcome

[ihtfp]

[ QUOTE ]


Maybe you didn't notice that I brought up reasons other than the draws.

1) Two people called preflop. <font color="blue"> Going to happen a lot if villains consistently overvalue marginal holdings as you say. </font>

2) One of them cold called a 3-bet. <font color="blue"> At these stakes doesn't mean too much...probably low PP looking to make a set on the flop or suited broadway cards. </font>

3) People who call and cold-call 3-bets are quite likely to overvalue marginal holdings. <font color="blue"> True. But they are also afraid of running into monsters, which is what we've represented so far... Plus villains don't typically have the stomach to float at these levels, so how they react to our cbet is going to tell us a lot of information about their hand. </font>

4) These kind of people will overvalue their TP whatever kicker, and not fold to our c-bet. We are likely to be putting money in as a loser against opponents who are unlikely to fold hand that beat us. <font color="blue"> The only hands I can see calling the 3bet that currently beat us are TT, 44, KQ, and AK. IMO this is a pretty small portion of the villain's range...probably something like 22-TT, AJ+ if they are really bad. Basically, I think the risk that you let opponents draw to their weaker hands is greater than the risk that your cbet runs into a hand with a king here. We are not trying to extract value from weaker hands, but trying to prevent draws and take the pot down early.</font>

5) These sorts of players are also likely to chase, which means that we have a good chance to be in a situation that can serve as a textbook example of reverse implied odds (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=microplnl&amp;Number=8121403&amp; Searchpage=1&amp;Main=8121403&amp;Words=Concept+EMcWilliam s&amp;topic=&amp;Search=true#Post8121403). Remember, being in a reverse implied odds situation is bad. <font color="blue"> Not sure this is true if we shut down after our cbet. </font>

Now, in the face of these facts, can you tell me why it is so damn urgent to bet here that hero can't fold and wait for an opportunity where fewer factor are against him? <font color="blue"> Because a big part of becoming a good poker player is learning to feel out these marginal situations and profit from them. IMO, you are missing out on a lot of value if you don't cbet in this type of situation.</font>


[/ QUOTE ]

[DaAznFella]

i dont' like a cbet here b/c you are oop against two people with a pretty coordinated board. if someone fires at this strong, you have to give it up.

[silly_monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
5) These sorts of players are also likely to chase, which means that we have a good chance to be in a situation that can serve as a textbook example of reverse implied odds. Remember, being in a reverse implied odds situation is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try to be a bit more condescending...

We're in a reverse implied odds situation if we're going to keep pushing with this hand after meeting resistance. If we're going to shut down if called or raised, then this is hardly a reverse implied odds situation.

I still think this boils down to how often you will pick up the pot. In my experience, in the games I play in I think a continuation bet of 2/3 the pot will take this down more than 50% of the time, making it clearly profitable. If you think that a 2/3 pot bet will take it down less that 40% of the time in YOUR game, then the continuation bet isn't profitable. IMO reverse implied odds have nothing to do with this unless you're planning to spew with an underpair.