Getting started in poker

[Tien]

I was thinking the other day, what would I have done if I had to start over again in poker and lose all my knowledge about the game. But I was able to retain knowledge about where to go to seek information;

Which way would allow me to plow through the limits in the most effective / fastest way.

1) first thing I would do is sign up at cardrunners for their 150$ (?) membership and watch every single video they had so they can mold my mentality into a winning mentality.

Cost a lot of money for a new player.... But new players have no idea how much money they will save by watching these videos.

2) develop a huge network of poker friends to discuss poker. When you surround yourself with people who motivate and discuss hands with you, it will keep you going as well as new strategies that they are using / what is working / what is not working.

I would be careful to find friends that have somewhat a reasonable sense of the game.

Best way to make friends in poker? Start giving advice on 2+2 / liquidpoker. The more advice you give out, the more you will receive in return.

3) Play play play as much as it is healthy to play to gain EXPERIENC as well as discuss as many hands as possible that I am not sure about.

4) read / print all the articles available on liquidpoker and 2+2 nano stakes so I can get all the important "theory" of poker down.


I think if someone gave me a piece of paper with these steps on it, it would have made my beginning poker stages a lot easier.

Especially that 150$ investment to cardrunners. I honestly think what Green Plastic, a guy that plays 10 000NL and above is charging for PRICELESS information... What he offers is truly truly a bargain you should capatilize on.

The amount of money you are losing by not knowing what to do in certain spots:

"COSTS YOU MORE THAN THAT MEMBERSHIP 10000 FOLD."

Hopefully this will help that random fish out there.

[Sir Winalot]

Good stuff for starting players, thanks Tien.

[Tien]

I cannot stress enough the importance of paying for education now instead of paying for it later.

That is the biggest lesson in life I learned in poker.

If I dished out a bunch of money right off the bat instead of being a cheap ass, life would have been sooooooooo much easier.

Don't cheap out on information guys. You are losing a lot more money being cheap and trying to learn everything yourself.

Why try to reinvent the wheel when there are high stakes players telling you exactly what to do.

[A_C_Slater]

Have you been to stoxtrader's coaching site? I have a membersip there ($50 sign up and than $20 monthly.) The videos are often unclear even in high resoulotion, but the strategy advice is very clear and conscise in the narration. Is cardrunner's superior?

[Tien]

cardrunner videos are 100% clear.

I do not have a stoxtrader's membership so I cannot comment on it.

I would bet that the information given to you is very valuable though.

[GrandmaStabone]

it is superior for nl play

[avfletch]

Personally I would advise people to read, study and play for a little while before joining Cardrunners. The site is excellent but the advice may be hard to appreciate for an absolute beginner. Just my 2c.

[A_C_Slater]

The site (cardrunners) says that the sign up fee is $50 not $150. And $20 each additional month. Can anyone confirm that has a membership?

[GrandmaStabone]

$50 sign-up fee and $20/month yes.

[LearningCurve]

[ QUOTE ]
it is superior for nl play

[/ QUOTE ]


Grandma, are you saying Cardrunner is superior or the other way around. Thanks for clarifying!

[silly_monkey]

I personally prefer stox to cardrunners, but both are very good and very worth while IMO.

Stox Pros:
- Very good analysis of the hands
- Stox is a very solid player who plays a TAG style
- Very good job of explaining theory AND how to put it into use in game situations.
- Many plays based on math/experience and not reads or feel

Cons
- Not nearly as many videos as cardrunners
- Streaming video only, which is annoying if your workplace bandwidth limits streaming video /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Card Runners Pros:
- Tons of videos from multiple players
- Taylor plays a LAG style, which many find attractive
- Taylor definately makes more "moves", which can help to open up your game regardless of style.
- Videos are downloadable, with 2 week DRM licenses.

Cons:
- Taylor's game is definately more based on "feel" and reads, which I find more difficult to learn from.
- Many videos are only 1 or 2 tables, which can sometimes make them a bit boring.

Personally, I've found I get more out of the stox videos, probably because I can connect better (personally) with his approach to the game. I also personally find his explanations clearer and am more able to apply his style to my game. That being said, I think anyone would be well served by both sites. I'm just learning NL and I think I have probably paid for yearly subscriptions to both sites after only a few months of part-time play.

[ADK]

is it worth signing up to any of these sites if you play NL25?

[silly_monkey]

If you plan on getting better and moving up I would say yes. I feel like I've easily payed for them at NL$50.

[LearningCurve]

Thank you for the well thought-out, detailed feedback. It is much appreciated.

[AKQJ10]

Would you consider cross-posting to Beginners and/or the wiki (http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/Beginners)?

And regarding the premium services referred to: Is there a way to start with less than a $70 investment? Granted, that's less than a good B&M session, but I still think it's rational to ask someone to prove their value before I make that kind of commitment.

[Tien]

I don't know about what cardrunners can offer in terms of payment....

But, believe me, if you make one investment this entire year to learning poker, 70$ as initial investment is worth its weight in gold.

Everyone I know serious about poker has a membership to cardrunners and there is NOT ONE PERSON that has anything negative to say about the site in terms of quality. It is not only one person making videos, it is a fleet of high stakes players making videos.

Even if you are starting off playing penny tables with 2 cent buyins. Everything you learn at the stakes he plays at, between 200NL to 2000NL is applicable.

Sillymonkey hit the nail on the head with his analysis.

Those videos are worth their weight in gold.

But don't forget the other things I said in my original post either.

[Tien]

"but I still think it's rational to ask someone to prove their value before I make that kind of commitment"


I am no way affiliated with green plastic or cardrunners, nor do I think I can prove his value without illegally posting his videos that I have downloaded somewhere.

Taylor Caby (Green plastic) is down to earth honest man. I was as hesitant as you were in buying the membership but it easily paid itself off... hundreds of times.

[michaelantoi]

Tien, I appreciate your post and insight into CR.

I get so many mixed opinions on wether a uNL player (like myself) should join CR.

Many say it is not so appropriatte for uNL players as most of his videos are for NL100 and above. Hence the mentality for his decisions etc. will be different.

Some say it is helpful, but I still cant understand why.

I'm not so much a beginner, but not quite intermediate. I have about 30k hands logged in PT.

Do you still think it will be helpful for players like myself?

[jonyy6788]

These videos are helpful....if you want to sample them instead of your $70 investment you can purchase individual videos for $9.99 or less.

[michaelantoi]

I have sampled them, and hence am still indecisive.

Maybe I should signup anyway and watch them all.

Couldn't do any harm.

[Tien]

1 video can't do you much.

You need to see 100+ so that they can brainwash you.

[checkmate36]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I would advise people to read, study and play for a little while before joining Cardrunners. The site is excellent but the advice may be hard to appreciate for an absolute beginner. Just my 2c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im thinking that I will wait until I get some hands under my belt before I join up.

Hard to pay when the BB in your game is only a few cents. Once the basics are down and I move up, I will take a second look.

[deehi]

I have been playing poker since July 05, had not really don't much in the way of playing other than donating to the online community. I cam across Cardrunners in their infancy back in late 05. I had the money available to join but was too cheap to do so.
Come this November, I purchased the full membership. And right now I am currently playing the 25NL level,whereas I was wondering aimlessly at 10NL for over a year. Is this a coincidence? You decide. As for whether its worth the initial investment or worth it to a micro grinder, I am testament to its value.

Whether a total noob is gonna understand some of the concepts discuss in the videos is more than i am qualified to answer, but it has helped my game. In addition, I did a coaching session with one of the members who is doing well at online poker and he was able to help my game. That alone, made a ton of difference. My bet sizing was horrible along with my reads. In one session, I was given the confidence and critique in order to pay for my membership. It would take me two weeks or longer just to make $125 dollars, well, i am happy to inform you that I've made $350 in a week and a half. So yes, it has its merits.

As for the rest of Tien's post, I like the idea of educating yourself on the game. When I first found 2p2, I really didn't like the site because I thought everyone here were nothing but a bunch of math geeks. But I got bored with the bickering and immature nature of two forums that I used to post on on a regular basis. At the same time, I began to realize that when i wanted to discuss poker, and not gossip about who should be on top of this weeks leaderboard or why this person isnt ranked or why is this person featured on the cover of this weeks poker mag, I came here.

This site is an invaluable tool. The noob can come here, and lurk if he/she so chooses and sponge up on all the various advice given or TONS of hand histories. Thanks 2p2.

Tien, i am one forum member who is glad to see that you have not totally left poker. If you ever have the need to coach someone, I'd gladly be your guniea pig. lol

[Bowlboy]

I'm currently contemplating joining. I love watching poker session videos. However I'm only playing 10NL. On top of that, I'm beating it nicely and expect to be jumping to 25NL very soon if I ever stop celebrating the new year and get back to the grind. I'm wondering though if it really is worth it for me or players who are where I am right now. I think I will definitely benefit in the long run from these videos either way, though I dont think that it's going to make a big enough difference for me to be +EV in the short term. So I guess what I'm saying is I plan on signing up after I hit 25NL.

[ettorek]

I've watched only some video taken from 2p2 (I-Strong) and I must agree with Tien: the "theoretical" approach to the game is a key point in the evolution of a poker player.
Watching how act a good player may give you invaluable info to improve the game: I'll give a look to Cardrunners.

[Tien]

Green Plastic should pay me :P

I would like to coach a couple of new born micro limit guinea pigs but I don't have the time anymore.

I float about here and there while I am busy designing my new business. I rarely rarely have any time to do anything else. I didn't trade poker for another 9-5 job, I am right now designing a business system that will run itself within a few months.


I wrote this post for 1 reason and people should really understand this one:

The biggest lesson I ever learned from poker was that if 2 years ago I started playing poker and someone gave me those 4 steps to follow as well as that article I wrote. It would have set me straight and I would have plowed my way through the limits.

I am applying that lesson to my new business as well. I am spending a few grand paying for courses (multiple courses, dozens of books, dozens of CD's about my business) and information and I can't believe what I would do if that information wasn't available to me. I would not be able to have any idea on how to design this business system without paying someone for the information.

Nobody should try and reinvent the wheel by trying to learn everything on their own. There are too many mistakes to make, don't try to make them all yourself, it simply costs too much. Every session you sit down to play at will be littered with hundreds of mistakes you don't even know you are making.

Pay someone to help you PREVENT mistakes so you can save yourself a fortune. I repeat, you are being a CHEAPASS by subscribing to these sites that have videos, and you are being a fool who enjoys LOSING MONEY by trying to scrounge every dollar you can.

This is the biggest lesson many of you will learn. In poker, as in life.

[Tien]

Some mistakes and lessons are way too costly to try and learn on your own. If you try and play poker without any professional or continuous high level quality advice, you will end up making so many mistakes throughout your poker career.

Do you think paying that 150$ and 30+ hours of poker videos and 20 hours of poker studying (2+2 / articles) is worth it if you can save yourself MULTIPLE 10 buyin downswings at 100 or 200 NL later on? Even 400NL, 600NL if you get that high.

Do you think paying that 150$ and 50+ hours of poker videos and 40 hours of 2+2 studying / article reading is worth it if you can for the rest of your poker career increase your winrate by a few bb/100 and in the process, make you an extra tens of thousands within the next year?

This doesn't only apply to Cardrunners. It applies to everything you can do to make yourself better. The more time you spend time improving YOURSELF, the more money you will reap in the future. You won't reap a thing if you don't continuously apply yourself every single day. Don't go out there, apply for the membership, watch 10 videos, and don't apply a thing he says or teaches. That is just stupid.

Don't forget the other things I mentioned in my first post. All of the other 3 things combined are worth more than the videos IMO, but the videos themselves are worth the most.


TRUST me on this one guys. I made this mistake, I learned the lesson, and the lesson cost me tens of thousands of dollars. You don't have to pay the same price.

[Sean Fraley]

I've learned about the necessity of investing financially in specialized knowledge in the past. As soon as I can budget it, I'll take you advice. If it can just help me make enough money to not have to flip burgers for a second job to help pay outstanding debt, it will be worth $150 dollars in dignity alone.

[LearningCurve]

Tien, once your business is running itself and you decide you have time for a guinea pig, I'll happily volunteer. /images/graemlins/grin.gif It's obvious you are as interested in improving others as you are in improving yourself. Very admirable. Thank you for your suggestions, and best of luck in your new venture!

[munkey]

nh Tien good to see you around.

Anyone have the link to the best SSNL vids thread or can suggest the best CR and stoxtraders vids for uNL/SSNL?

I think videos are great - actually the videos that I saw first and really helped when I started learning were the ones by 2paul2 and jsnipes.

The iSTRONG series (see sticky I think) is also great though a busted soundcard means I haven't heard the xmas vid till I fix it.

[Tien]

I just want to break you all out of micro limits and start making some good part time money at 100 nl and above.

It really isn't that hard to get to 100 nl and 200 nl within a few months if you apply yourself.

Nobody should be playing micro limits forever which I did for 8 months (25 nl and 50NL) until I had a poker epiphany.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone have the link to the best SSNL vids thread

[/ QUOTE ]

It was so trivial to find that I'm not sure it's the one you seek, but I've archived the link at

http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/Video

so we won't lose it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
I just want to break you all out of micro limits and start making some good part time money at 100 nl and above.

It really isn't that hard to get to 100 nl and 200 nl within a few months if you apply yourself.

Nobody should be playing micro limits forever which I did for 8 months (25 nl and 50NL) until I had a poker epiphany.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, which limit do you think would be the best one to start at? I am currently rolled for NL10, is it worth the money to put in a deposit and work up from a higher limit?

[michaelantoi]

I've just signed up and started to download. Finally bit the bullet and went ahead with it.

I'll let you know how I go.

Thanks for pushing me over the edge Tien. Hopefully turns out for the best.

I'm taking a break from poker for a few days, going to watch these vids over and over and hopefully I can get back into the groove of things soon enough.

[Tien]

Best limit to start at if you have no prior experience is the 2 NL penny tables on stars.

That's how I did it, thats where everyone should start so that the lessons they learn playing costs them the least amount of money.

I would immediately move over to fulltilt poker for bonus / rakeback for 10 NL. Or battlefield poker for 50% rakeback. That can't be beat. Rakeback makes you thousands and thousands a month at 100 nl +.

Rakeback is toooo important for a small stakes player. 100 NL and below get taxed the hardest in rake. Your winrate is noticibly effected by the rake.

[Tien]

[ QUOTE ]
I've just signed up and started to download. Finally bit the bullet and went ahead with it.

I'll let you know how I go.

Thanks for pushing me over the edge Tien. Hopefully turns out for the best.

I'm taking a break from poker for a few days, going to watch these vids over and over and hopefully I can get back into the groove of things soon enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am glad to see you are applying yourself.

Thats what I do here, kick you penny tablers in the butt to get things moving.

Watch / analyze and apply what you learn on those videos. They are useless without application.

[AKQJ10]

http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ#Getting_started

[Hui]

Hi Tien,

I'm a newbie poker player. I've been reading your (and Pokey's) post on a lot of the poker theories.

Recently took the bullet and moved to 25NL.

I'll definitely try to follow your advice. Although I'm not a serious enough player (in terms of time) I see a lot of life lessons to be learned at the poker table.

Keep up the good work!
And I'll be checking those sites out when they are up again. Can't connect right now.

[sebbb]

good posts Tien, thank you.

I subscribed to cardrunners a week ago, but I got a bit discouraged... There are lots of videos and I feel a bit lost, asking myself questions such as "should I watch only videos with good ratings?" or "are the recent videos better than the initial ones?", or "should I watch mid/high stakes videos now?"

So would a good plan be to just start watching green plastic's videos, starting from #1 and going down the list without asking myself any question? (as well as Aba's as they are coming up)

[Entropy4]

Tien: I was going to wait until I moved up to 50NL before I joined cardrunners, but this post convinced me to go ahead and do it (did they pay you to post this? /images/graemlins/smile.gif). I've been playing two months and am a marginal winner at 25NL right now. Hopefully this will help me get a boost. I'd like to be out of micros by the end of the summer.