50NL 6max- AA on a monotone flop with a FD

[Imrahil]

Villain is 74/23/3 over 35 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($28.95)
MP ($50.05)
CO ($45.25)
Hero ($66)
SB ($54.25)
BB ($29)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, CO calls $3.

Flop: ($8.25) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $13</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $23</font>, Hero?

[A_C_Slater]

Push because you want the K and Q /images/graemlins/club.gif to call you right now, also overpairs. If he has a set it doesn't matter if it goes in here or on turn because it's going in.

[BoozeHound]

In my experience, this line from villain is almost always a huge hand. I'd expect to see a made flush or a set almost always here. Do we really want to push on what is essentially a flush draw (with discounted outs based on probability he has the clubs)?

How often does villain have just overs with a K or a Q with this line? How often does he have something like 9xKc?

[Sweir]

There is about $45 in the pot and it will cost you about 29 to put CO all-in. This would mean if he calls and you are behind you would be getting good enough odds to draw to your flush. This is also a good chance that you are ahead now making this a push.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, this line from villain is almost always a huge hand. I'd expect to see a made flush or a set almost always here. Do we really want to push on what is essentially a flush draw (with discounted outs based on probability he has the clubs)?

How often does villain have just overs with a K or a Q with this line? How often does he have something like 9xKc?

[/ QUOTE ]



Villain is 74/23/3 over 35 hands

And even if he was solid I play it the same, like sweir said there is $45 in pot and it costs $29 to put villian in and you have nut overpair with nut flush draw. Folding here is insanely weak-tight even for weak-tight super nits.

Worst case scenario he has 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif and you're 3 to 1 vs that and 2 to 1 vs K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif and slightly better than 2 to 1 vs any set.

[Adelson]

Get it in. He's 74/23/3 and could show up here with many hands.

[BoozeHound]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, this line from villain is almost always a huge hand. I'd expect to see a made flush or a set almost always here. Do we really want to push on what is essentially a flush draw (with discounted outs based on probability he has the clubs)?

How often does villain have just overs with a K or a Q with this line? How often does he have something like 9xKc?

[/ QUOTE ]



Villain is 74/23/3 over 35 hands

And even if he was solid I play it the same, like sweir said there is $45 in pot and it costs $29 to put villian in and you have nut overpair with nut flush draw. Folding here is insanely weak-tight even for weak-tight super nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a concept I sometimes struggle with, Are the odds on his call of 29 into 74 the odds here? basically the same as if he had put us in? sorry for the hijack.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I saw results, which has completely tainted me.

The near-minbet 3bet-minraise line is a monster 90% of the time from really bad opponents. Does he donk bet often? Is that his standard donk bet size? Whats his aggression frequency? His limp preflop pretty well discounts a good overpair like QQ or KK, but its hard to say he doesn't slowplay these some of the time.

how I react to his 1st bet would depend a ton on his aggression frequency, and what I think his standard play would be in this situation.

[4_2_it]

Call the flop. If villain is interested in playing a big pot on that flop then you are way behind almost always. Take the odds he is offering and see if he bets again on the turn.

[BoozeHound]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the flop. If villain is interested in playing a big pot on that flop then you are way behind almost always. Take the odds he is offering and see if he bets again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does villain ever not bet again here? even on the (very small) chance he is bluffing? Only hand I can see doing this and quitting on turn is a random K or Q draw. Do we see this often enough from this line to call flop?

[Imrahil]

I thought it was standard to make a raise here with AA and the NFD?? Especially against a big donk.

[A_C_Slater]

We're getting 4.7 to 1 to call the flop, so we have to continue. If villian pushes a 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif turn than we're still getting 2 to 1 to call all in. If the board pairs on the turn and he pushes well... that's why I just push on the flop.

[Check_The_Nuts]

I don't really have a standard line versus a donk bet when I PFR. But yeah I definitely default to raise here.

I agree with 4_2 it about calling the flop 3bet.

[BoozeHound]

[ QUOTE ]
Call the flop. If villain is interested in playing a big pot on that flop then you are way behind almost always. Take the odds he is offering and see if he bets again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was standard to make a raise here with AA and the NFD?? Especially against a big donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have misread that post. call the small flop bet? It didn't even occur to me to not raise that bet. I like that idea though. I think the only thing we are folding out of the hand is a K or Q flush draw, which we already have beat.

[A_C_Slater]

K or Q flush draw is snap calling. The raise is for value.

[Check_The_Nuts]

blood - not raising can lose a TON of value versus gay overpairs, and A9o etc.

The only way I wouldn't raise the flop is if I thought I was drawing &gt;70% of the time. Usually not true against a guy with those stats.

if the flop donk is weight towards complete air+monsters, then its a balance between raising for meta-game (I want to steal most of the small pots), and letting him fire two-&gt;three barrels into me....

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Call the flop. If villain is interested in playing a big pot on that flop then you are way behind almost always. Take the odds he is offering and see if he bets again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was standard to make a raise here with AA and the NFD?? Especially against a big donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may have misread that post. call the small flop bet? It didn't even occur to me to not raise that bet. I like that idea though. I think the only thing we are folding out of the hand is a K or Q flush draw, which we already have beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Call the small flop bet. What worse hands want to play a big pot on that flop? Sets and flushes.

I'm not saying that hero should be looking for a chance to fold, but when he decides to escalate he has to consider what better hand folds and what worse hand calls because hero isn't getting away from this hand easily.

Also, if a 4th /images/graemlins/club.gif doesn't hit, hero's hand has some showdown value.

[Imrahil]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really have a standard line versus a donk bet when I PFR. But yeah I definitely default to raise here.

I agree with 4_2 it about calling the flop 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

4_2 said to just call the donk bet, not the 3 bet.

Is it agreed that I must push after villain 3bets?

[Check_The_Nuts]

I think your drawing pretty often then, because I think this guy seldom slowplays big pairs preflop. This is in relation to the flop 3bet.

Oh - I lived in Bedford NS. Kinda weird....I'm still in the maritimes, Fredericton/Charlottetown...

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it agreed that I must push after villain 3bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Pushing at that point is a 'small' mistake (using Theory of Poker terms). I think raising the flop is a bigger mistake.

The problem with this hand is that you aren't getting paid by hands that do not contain the K /images/graemlins/club.gif when you hit your flush and you are currently behind almost every hand that will stack off on that flop.

[jonyy6788]

This is my response in the Microbrew....

What are you hoping to accomplish with the AA there? I probably just call hoping to hit the 4th club. There's no real need to "protect" your hand, you have the highest FD and you probably get pushed back at by sets/made flushes.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
K or Q flush draw is snap calling. The raise is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

no....

Why does everyone think that loose players are retarded. This costs me buy-ins all the time just b/c I think they're dumb. Most people aren't that dumb. Not respecting an idiot postflop=leak on this type of flop

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
K or Q flush draw is snap calling. The raise is for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

no....

Why does everyone think that loose players are retarded. This costs me buy-ins all the time just b/c I think they're dumb. Most people aren't that dumb. Not respecting an idiot postflop=leak on this type of flop

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm talking as played this should be done. But those hands are calling. Going way ahead/way behind on the flop is a fine idea.

[jonyy6788]

I have no idea what you're talking about, but we wanna get to showdown or hit the nut flush.

[A_C_Slater]

As played the K or Q /images/graemlins/club.gif is calling a flop push getting 2 to 1. But that's as played. I meant that just calling the flop and turn and river is fine without raising anywhere unless you hit the flush because we are either way ahead of hands that we want him to keep betting or way behind to his set or flush and we want to save money by keeping the pot small.