Number generators on video poker machines.

[Optimizer]

Who can answer this question? Does it make any difference when you press the draw button on video poker machines? I know that number generators run continuosly. However, are those numbers lined up in an order that will give you the same cards regardless of when you draw, or will you draw a series of cards based stricktly on when you intercept the number generator?

[KingMedicine]

from what i read from bob dancer (www.bobdancer.com), the VP guru, it doesnt matter when you hit the draw after you hold your initial cards.

meaning that when you first hit draw to get your five initial cards you are actually stopping the RNG on a set of 10 cards in the order 1-2-3-4-5 (initial cards dealt) and then 6-7-8-9-10 for the cards to come. so, youd only see card 10 if you threw all five.

so after you press hold on the cards you want to keep, it doesnt matter when you press draw, the cards are just there waiting for you.

so if you get dealt 4 to the royal and accidently mishold and only hold 3 of them and then what would have been the 5th royal card 1st out of the shoot, youd have hit your royal if not for the mishold. the timing of when you hit the draw button that second time is irrelevant.

i guess what that means is that the RNG is only used once per hand, not twice.

hope that makes sense.

[Optimizer]

To KingMedicine: Thanks for your answer. I have read some of Bob Dancer and have his WinPoker 6 software which is excellent. However, I have never read anything that specifies how the draws are made from a RNG. So, I really appeciate your feedback. Incidently, are you a seious poker player? I have recently become a very serious student of hold'em and have posted a question about the effect of the cards already dealt on the odds against making your hand. You may find the subject interesting. It is posted under Texas Hold'em - General. Thanks Again from Optimizer.

[KingMedicine]

yea, i play poker online for a living now, like 1/2 of 2+2. i played VP for a living for about a year. its truly a grind, but can be done.

ill check out your other posts.

i believe i read the info about VP RNGs in dancer's book called "million dollar video poker" or whatever teh title is where he made a mil in 1 year at VP. you can get it from his site - and you should if you want to learn VP well. its pretty well written and an easy, but interesting read.

also, winpoker is THE BEST program to learn all the games perfectly.

--KM.

[SheetWise]

In the software I've done, the RNG is accessed for every request -- and the RNG is not accessing a table. There is no information that could affect the outcome of the game preselected or able to be known. When you press the buttons makes a difference.

I can't see why it would make any difference to the player.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
In the software I've done, the RNG is accessed for every request -- and the RNG is not accessing a table. There is no information that could affect the outcome of the game preselected or able to be known. When you press the buttons makes a difference.

I can't see why it would make any difference to the player.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is how i understand POKER software works, but i believe VIDEO POKER software (meaning, casino video poker machines) work with the RNG only being accessed once. i think sheets is talking about poker software since he doesnt mention VP - just to clarify.

[SheetWise]

I've done both. For security, it has always been stipulated that the results cannot be known or manipulated. The easiest way to do this is to not make a call to the RNG until all selections are a made. Assuming the calling software properly reports results based on the RNG, there is only one component to secure. Any other solution would create multiple points where the results could be compromised. The same idea applies to bonus rounds on slot machines, the correct "pick" is unknown when the screen is displayed. This isn't to say other people haven't structured their software differently, but I would question the practice of drawing numbers and holding them in memory while the game is in progress -- since there's no logical reason to do so -- especially if you're trying to secure the information.

[Toonces]

VP RNG generators used to be done the way that KingMedicine suggests, but it is not done that way anymore. Some computer programmers with some background knowledge of the RNG generator figured out that with trial and error, you can determine where in the RNG cycle a machine is by cross-referencing the first 5 cards drawn several times while also feeding into a computer the number on second apart each draw was. Once they were able to find out approximately where in the cycle the RNG was, they could then enter the first 5 cards into the computer for a future deal, and the computer could predict what "hidden" cards 6-10 were. With this information, the machines would return well in excess of 100%, and could be beaten.

As a result, the machines now only choose the first 5 cards when you hit the deal button, and choose the remaining 5 cards when you hit the draw button.

[SheetWise]

It's amazing how some of this stuff ever got to a casino floor. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The RNGs I've seen used for the last 10 years or so aren't using any algorithm or table that could be used to predict a sequence. Even then, I've done card work using Microsofts pseudo RNG, and massaged the results in ways that would make it impossible to predict even if you had the code (but not if you could peek into memory). /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bonuspokergod]

It doesn't have to be a grind. If you're playing only one denomination and trying to play 100% computer perfectly (impossible) though, then it will be.

[ QUOTE ]
yea, i play poker online for a living now, like 1/2 of 2+2. i played VP for a living for about a year. its truly a grind, but can be done.

ill check out your other posts.

i believe i read the info about VP RNGs in dancer's book called "million dollar video poker" or whatever teh title is where he made a mil in 1 year at VP. you can get it from his site - and you should if you want to learn VP well. its pretty well written and an easy, but interesting read.

also, winpoker is THE BEST program to learn all the games perfectly.

--KM.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't have to be a grind. If you're playing only one denomination and trying to play 100% computer perfectly (impossible) though, then it will be.


[/ QUOTE ]

youre wrong on a couple accounts:

1) it is a grind if you want to try to be an advantage player and youre playing within your bankroll. if you want to play it because you like to gamble and are willing to play when you have no advantage, then id imagine it would be fun. if, in the long run, im going to lose money at it, however, id rather go watch a movie or mountain bike than sit at a machine and hit the buttons when im sure to lose in the long run.

2) it is very possible to play as perfect as a computer if you spend the time to learn it. i can play a few versions perfectly (DDB, DB, JoB).

[bonuspokergod]

You don't have the advantage over the casino in the long run. Nobody does. That kind of thinking says that you hope to be .0002 % ahead by the time you die if you only play machines that offer an EV of 100.2% or some nonsense, and only then if you play them perfectly, which no human can do. Even if you do, you still need LUCK to win.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have the advantage over the casino in the long run. Nobody does. That kind of thinking says that you hope to be .0002 % ahead by the time you die if you only play machines that offer an EV of 100.2% or some nonsense, and only then if you play them perfectly, which no human can do. Even if you do, you still need LUCK to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

i give up. youre right.

[SheetWise]

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bonuspokergod]

Good I'm glad you agree.

[ QUOTE ]


i give up. youre right.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Terry]

So do we have to give the money back? I only played slots for a living for a couple of years so your news doesn't affect me too much, but I have a friend who has been playing video poker for a living for over 20 years and he's gonna be really pissed if he has to get a job.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
So do we have to give the money back? I only played slots for a living for a couple of years so your news doesn't affect me too much, but I have a friend who has been playing video poker for a living for over 20 years and he's gonna be really pissed if he has to get a job.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, terry, sheets, me, terry's friend and the thousands of other people in the US who play EV+ situations in casinos, please return all money because its impossible to find even one single EV+ spot in a casino that you can exploit.

[SheetWise]

Give it back? Damn!
Thirty tears ago my mother told me I should get a real job. Damn! Just, damn!