50NL 6m Basic limped pot question

[nogenius]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($36)
SB ($33.55)
Hero ($50)
UTG ($51.70)
MP ($50)
CO ($17.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $0.50, MP (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ???</font>

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All Villians are unknowns.

4 players in the pot, what's your move here? What if the board came with a flush draw?

[dankus]

I'd bet.

I like to be aggressive at this point and in best case, you take it right here.

If you get called, then you have to evaluate the turn naturally. If raised, I would fold.

[KEW]

Check see what develops and evaluate..Betting is bad as only a better hand calls and if you are called you will be in even a tougher spot on the turn and river..This is a classic reverse implied odds hand..You will win a small pot and lose a big one

[dankus]

[ QUOTE ]
Betting is bad as only a better hand calls and if you are called you will be in even a tougher spot on the turn and river..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a better hand calls necessarily.

In these cases, I have seen A3, A4, and so forth call a bet from the blind.

The reason I encourage a bet, you don't have any idea about anything. People limped in, more than likely with holdings that are marginally worse or better than your own.

[KEW]

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Betting is bad as only a better hand calls and if you are called you will be in even a tougher spot on the turn and river..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a better hand calls necessarily.

In these cases, I have seen A3, A4, and so forth call a bet from the blind.

The reason I encourage a bet, you don't have any idea about anything. People limped in, more than likely with holdings that are marginally worse or better than your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything you say is true..But those hand are the reason I want to check give the a chance to make a mistake and bet..How many streets of value can you get out of J6??? If you lead and get called what is your plan on the turn and river??? Checking will max your win and more importently min your loss..How confident in your hand should you bet and get called by both??? Betting puts you in too tough a spot when called..

[dankus]

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Betting is bad as only a better hand calls and if you are called you will be in even a tougher spot on the turn and river..

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a better hand calls necessarily.

In these cases, I have seen A3, A4, and so forth call a bet from the blind.

The reason I encourage a bet, you don't have any idea about anything. People limped in, more than likely with holdings that are marginally worse or better than your own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything you say is true..But those hand are the reason I want to check give the a chance to make a mistake and bet..How many streets of value can you get out of J6??? If you lead and get called what is your plan on the turn and river??? Checking will max your win and more importently min your loss..How confident in your hand should you bet and get called by both??? Betting puts you in too tough a spot when called..

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't be to confident in my hand, but I feel confident enough to make a bet against 3 limpers and see what develops. If I get raised, I am out of there. If I get called, I evaluate, like you recommend on the flop.

To be honest, this seems a difficult situation and you can find reasons that lend credibility to both recommendations. I'd rather bet and try to win the pot given the opportunity.

If I were to check, a 3 or a 4 may lead out depending on the aggression of the UTG and MP players. I will have no confidence in the value of my hand then.

What it boils down to in my mind, if I lead out, it seems to be the best chance to win the pot.

[emon87]

Hero checks.

Your hand kinda sucks and a lot of cards can come that beat it or scare it. The pot is not very big. Also, you will get called by 88/99/A4 type hands that will then bet when you check on later streets, forcing you to fold. If you had reads on the table you might bet. But still, crappy hand and small pot. Don't get yourself into a pot you can't win.

[MadMike]

What do you do if you check and UTG or MP bets $1?
Fold TPNK to half-pot bet?
Do you call the $1 and then check/fold turn?
Call the $1, and call a small turn bet?

Just curious. Without a read I might just c/f this flop because I'm a nit.

[pineapple888]

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you will get called by 88/99/A4 type hands

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Maybe

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that will then bet when you check on later streets

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Maybe

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forcing you to fold

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Maybe

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Don't get yourself into a pot you can't win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you bet the flop and they fold, you win. /images/graemlins/confused.gif



As for other arguments above, when you are confident you have the best hand, you should generally bet, and if worse hands fold, that's fine, because YOU WIN THE POT! The "worse hands fold" thing is mostly for the river only, applying it earlier is often absurd, you are FINE if worse hands fold when there are more cards to come because then they don't hit their overcards or whatever.

There is no single answer here, but the arguments above are too simplistic IMHO.

[emon87]

I'm not applying the river argument here. I'm saying that I don't think that 3 people are going to fold here enough. With 2 opponents, I think it's swung into the bet category. But 3 is very marginal.

[emon87]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you do if you check and UTG or MP bets $1?
Fold TPNK to half-pot bet?
Do you call the $1 and then check/fold turn?
Call the $1, and call a small turn bet?

Just curious. Without a read I might just c/f this flop because I'm a nit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm folding. Will see JT/J9 a lot.

[pineapple888]

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I'm not applying the river argument here. I'm saying that I don't think that 3 people are going to fold here enough. With 2 opponents, I think it's swung into the bet category. But 3 is very marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the "worse hands fold" argument wasn't you but another poster above, sorry for not making that clear.

But I agree that IF the table is playing as you describe above, then checking is better. In any case, I'm generally taking one shot then putting no more $$ in, unimproved.

[Chomp]

Pineapple I really like your posts, but I think I diasagree with you here on the "worse hands fold" point. At least, I disagree with how you have phrased it.

I think it is always good at any point in a hand to get worse hands to call and better hands to fold: I don't think this concept is just applicable to the river.

Similarly, winning "the pot" is not the goal: maximising our expectation is the goal. My understanding of this is that maxing EV is always best served by worse hands calling and better hands folding. I think this is because we max our winnings when ahead, and min our losses when behind (although I am open to correction on that point).

That said, I DO think there is a time and place when worse hands folding is fine: for example if I c-bet with a medicore but not terrible hand on the flop into 2 players, I don't care what they have, I am glad to see the fold. So in that particular circumstance folding a worse hand would indeed seem pretty standard/acceotable.

But I don't think that changes the fact our focus at most times should be as described above.


Cheers.

[emon87]

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I'm not applying the river argument here. I'm saying that I don't think that 3 people are going to fold here enough. With 2 opponents, I think it's swung into the bet category. But 3 is very marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the "worse hands fold" argument wasn't you but another poster above, sorry for not making that clear.

But I agree that IF the table is playing as you describe above, then checking is better. In any case, I'm generally taking one shot then putting no more $$ in, unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]


I just think that with 3 opponents the shot isn't gonna work very often.

In any case, as long as you're just putting one shot in and nothing more, it really doesn't matter whether you check or fold here. It's very close.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
Pineapple I really like your posts, but I think I diasagree with you here on the "worse hands fold" point. At least, I disagree with how you have phrased it.

I think it is always good at any point in a hand to get worse hands to call and better hands to fold: I don't think this concept is just applicable to the river.

Similarly, winning "the pot" is not the goal: maximising our expectation is the goal. My understanding of this is that maxing EV is always best served by worse hands calling and better hands folding. I think this is because we max our winnings when ahead, and min our losses when behind (although I am open to correction on that point).

That said, I DO think there is a time and place when worse hands folding is fine: for example if I c-bet with a medicore but not terrible hand on the flop into 2 players, I don't care what they have, I am glad to see the fold. So in that particular circumstance folding a worse hand would indeed seem pretty standard/acceotable.

But I don't think that changes the fact our focus at most times should be as described above.


Cheers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if all the cards were turned over, of course you would always want worse hands to call. The problem is that, with incomplete information, you leave yourself wide open to all kinds of exploitation, e.g. a scare card falls (or not, actually) and somebody can shove you out with total air. Or a totally innocent-looking offsuit low card can give somebody a set or two-pair and now you can reasonably think you are ahead but you aren't.

The problem is, in this case, your hand is very marginally playable on future streets no matter what happens, so you are highly vulnerable, BUT your hand is actually quite likely to be best at the moment. That's why I'm "happy" in some sense to have worse hands fold here, because I really really don't want to have to play this hand on future streets, and the most obvious way to get any real value out of it is to take the pot down now.

I also can limit my losses by betting now (kinda counterintuitive) because I'm taking my one shot, then I'm pretty much done unless I improve or have an uber-read. If I check/call a button bet instead for example, now I'm not real sure what to do, because button could be betting anything/nothing, so now I'm tempted to call one more bet on a later street.

All of this is why floating the flop is such a powerful move, it's absolutely hateful playing against somebody who is good at floating, and I wouldn't even bet here vs. that sort of villain.

My thoughts anyway, none of this is clear-cut and there are many factors, but when in doubt, I tend to bet.

[dodgybob]

You really bet TPNK OOP into a 4 way limped pot?

I think that's ridiculous.

Easy check/call. Maybe check/fold depending on how i rate opposition and how nitty im feeling.

[emon87]

[ QUOTE ]
You really bet TPNK OOP into a 4 way limped pot?

I think that's ridiculous.

Easy check/call. Maybe check/fold depending on how i rate opposition and how nitty im feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am definately not check/calling. I don't think it's gonna get checked through twice more.

IMO c/f &gt; b &gt; C/c

[pineapple888]

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You really bet TPNK OOP into a 4 way limped pot?

I think that's ridiculous.

Easy check/call. Maybe check/fold depending on how i rate opposition and how nitty im feeling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, thanks so much for your opinion.

In the future, you might want to consider posting actual reasons for your opinions.

[orange]

check, see what happens.

[Chomp]

Sorry Pineapple, I should have added that I was not talking about this specific hand in my post (this hand to me is 100% a check 100% of the time).

I was more talking in general terms about the FToP.


Cheers.