TPTK donked into on drawy flop

[sharpie]

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($4.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $3</font>, Hero needs a plan?

[jonyy6788]

Hero needs a read.....

I call/evaluate turn

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero needs a read...

[/ QUOTE ] ...and stack sizes

[Javanewt]

With no read, I call.

[CobraGoat]

stack sizes would help. w/o them i probably call IP and reeval on turn although there are a ton of scare cards that may land on turn. however, they may also be scare cards for your opp.

[sharpie]

Hero wishes he had one.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $63.55
Hero: $49.55
CO: $30.50
Button: $47.05
SB: $40.05
BB: $33.50

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($4.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $3</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($10.25, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $5</font>, Hero...

Edit: I thought I posted the stack sizes in the first one, my bad.

[danny8]

i raise his flop lead to ~$13, if he calls and checks turn i put him AI, if he shoves on the flop or turn i call.

if you reraise the flop, he'll only have 1/2 PSB on the turn. And he'll call that off with a draw or a K.

[MadMike]

Hmm... interesting. My instinct would be to raise this flop to $10 or so. He'd be making a mistake to call with any draw, would probably call the raise with KQ and a couple other hands I beat. Is this a mistake? Should I be just flat calling donkbets when I hit TPTK on a drawy board? I really hate seeing something like a 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif come on the turn if I flat call.

[monkeymaps]

I think thats a leak because you collect the most value by calling. If you raise you are losing value cause villian is only folding hands that you beat. raising basicly alows villian to call with hands your behind or have strong equity agianst you.

[danny8]

[ QUOTE ]
I think thats a leak because you collect the most value by calling. If you raise you are losing value cause villian is only folding hands that you beat. raising basicly alows villian to call with hands your behind or have strong equity agianst you.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think villains pushing/calling with a draw here, pair+draw combo, a King.. i can see lots of hands that you beat that hes gonna pay off his stack with. + hes only got $33, i think your ahead of his range here. sure its gonna be a set sometimes, but IMO not as often as a draw combo/TPGK.

By just calling your put in a very tough spot on the turn. He can easily bluff you or suck out on you. I prefer to get it AI on the fl;op when you're ahead if his range.

[CobraGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
i raise his flop lead to ~$13, if he calls and checks turn i put him AI, if he shoves on the flop or turn i call.

if you reraise the flop, he'll only have 1/2 PSB on the turn. And he'll call that off with a draw or a K.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are basically saying go to the felt no matter what. I think that is a bit reckless.

I think RRing the flop is a viable option. However, what do you do with a turn scare card which i likely to fall?

also, if you raise the flop and he shoves, you call? I think i fold there and it feels awkward.

[danny8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i raise his flop lead to ~$13, if he calls and checks turn i put him AI, if he shoves on the flop or turn i call.

if you reraise the flop, he'll only have 1/2 PSB on the turn. And he'll call that off with a draw or a K.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are basically saying go to the felt no matter what. I think that is a bit reckless.

I think RRing the flop is a viable option. However, what do you do with a turn scare card which i likely to fall?

also, if you raise the flop and he shoves, you call? I think i fold there and it feels awkward.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he had a full stack i wouldnt 'go to felt no matter what' But a reraise on teh flop leaves him with only a 1/2 PSB on the turn, hes pushing/calling almost any hand there.

[higher_energy]

call is pretty horrible
everybody who is saying call and re-evaluate turn is just using the word re-evaluate because they are afraid of raising this flop after the donk-bet
what are you going to re-evaluate on this board when a heart, or 6,7,10,J come?
i think he has a weak K here, a draw and very rarely a set.

[Jigsaws]

On this board I'd raise the flop and call a push. Tons of draws he can call/push with.

Raise/folding is terrible.

[monkeymaps]

to you people saying RR flop wich I dont think is horrible you have to push if you do that because what are you goin to do on a scary turn? just fold?

And those that say that he could have a combo draw he is correct in calling any raise we make because he has a TON of equity so by raising we allow him to play perfecly.

Im not saying never felt or RR TPTK is just dont see the value in it here.

[jd2b2006]

Raise the flop to 11-12. Villain calls with plenty of weaker hands here. If villain pushes over the raise, I sigh and then call.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop to 11-12. Villain calls with plenty of weaker hands here. If villain pushes over the raise, I sigh and then call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agian i dont think this is bad but why not just push the flop? villian isnt gonna have much left if he calls the RR so we can't really get away on the turn no matter what falls

[higher_energy]

in a nutshelll what jb2b said...at this level this is the correct move i think. felting with TPTK is ok at 25NL and will make you money in the long run
to monkeymaps - what are we doing on a scary turn?
ok..well what are you doing when you call his raise and a scary turn comes? same thing as you would have done if you raised except that by raising you can have crap fold on the flop, you can get a free card on the turn for pot control and not face a difficult decision if he bets again.

[Sweir]

[ QUOTE ]
My instinct would be to raise this flop to $10 or so. He'd be making a mistake to call with any draw

[/ QUOTE ]
There are loads of draws that a call/push would be +EV with eg. 10hJh

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
in a nutshelll what jb2b said...at this level this is the correct move i think. felting with TPTK is ok at 25NL and will make you money in the long run
to monkeymaps - what are we doing on a scary turn?
ok..well what are you doing when you call his raise and a scary turn comes? same thing as you would have done if you raised except that by raising you can have crap fold on the flop, you can get a free card on the turn for pot control and not face a difficult decision if he bets again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is if we raise flop were arent folding any turn because were are priced in. (so why not push instead?)
And if he is FOS on flop why do we want him to fold?

And rr on the flop is not pot controll bacuse we are priced in on the turn.

[MadMike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My instinct would be to raise this flop to $10 or so. He'd be making a mistake to call with any draw

[/ QUOTE ]
There are loads of draws that a call/push would be +EV with eg. 10hJh

[/ QUOTE ]

yep- saying 'any draw' was a mistake.
But laying about 2:1 odds with a raise to $10 seems to make the range of draws villian is likely to have unprofitable, no? Need to raise to $12 on this board?

[higher_energy]

pushing flop is pretty horrible - we are getting called mostly by a set and maybe by combo draws

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
pushing flop is pretty horrible - we are getting called mostly by a set and maybe by combo draws

[/ QUOTE ]

Arent you also arguing to RR flop?
If we do that we mine as well push cause how are we going to fold turn?
My line is to call flop but if youre going to raise I see no point in not putting villian AI
The same people that are agrguing to RR flop because we are ahead dont want to push? Remeber villian started hand with &lt;100bb

[homeslice]

calling the flop sux! Raise it to $12. If he's got a flush draw most unknowns will call regardless of the odds your laying to them.

[mack848]

One thing I am sure of, given how little consensus there is as to the best play here - villains donk on this flop is a good play with any reasonable draw or monster.

[munkey]

I raise flop to 10 dollar.

He donked into us the PFR and could have a PP,draw,set, or Kx. Then on a blank turn I'll bet 2/3/AI when our equity is higher vs {fdraw+Kx range,set}.

If he shoves AI on the flop then I'll have to use whatever reads to call/fold.

[sharpie]

To those that said call the flop and reevaluate, what do you do on this turn?

[Neeek]

Tought spot for sure. My initial thought was that flat calling was ridiculous and you absolutely have to raise here. After reading through the posts, I think a raise puts you in a difficult position. If you can get away from the hand if he pushes over the top on the flop or an ugly turn, then I think you should raise, maybe to 10. However by that time the pot is big enough that a fold is difficult, which makes one think that maybe a flat call is best, which offers him odds. Any way you look at it, the stack sizes make this a difficult situation.


IMO i raise the flop to 10, and am able to get away from the hand to a push on the flop or a scary turn despite the odds laid to me.

BTW . . . just started reading this forum a few days ago, and it is hands like these that seem like no brainers on the surface but really make you think that has me excited about what i can learn from this forum

[Fuzzwah]

Good discussion here.

Even after monkey's repeated comments I think I still reraise his donk bet to 10 and hope he folds a draw and we win it there. If he calls and we see that scare card on the turn and he leads out, then we need a read or I'm folding.

This is why AK both rocks and sucks /images/graemlins/smile.gif