Some 2+2 called me a donk for making this play

[Gugel]

Alright, this hand happened against some nitty 2+2er that thinks he good. He called me a donk after this play. I laughed. He said I made -EV play. I laughed some more. He asked me why I was throwing money away. I started to feel sorry for his ignornace...

Anyway, here's the hand for your enjoyment and his embarrassment.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($79.20)
BB ($35.30)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($49.25)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP ($50)</font>
Button ($52)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($12.75) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $9</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $27</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $44</font>, Hero calls $16.25 (All-In).

Turn: ($100) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($100) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $100

[smellmuth]

wtf so standard

[Gugel]

I hope he reads this post and tries to defend himself.

[MyTurn2Raise]

If he's a real nit, I wouldn't call his preflop reraise with AQs.

Against the typical 6 maxer, preflop and all the rest of the hand is quite standard.

[jii]

Pre-flop is EV- against a nitty player.

[barryc83]

Gugel, not to bust your balls or anything, but I played w/ you last night and you were playing like a nit yourself. Did you stack that huge fish punishr27 or something?

[Gugel]

hell yea i'm a nit. i 12-table. you cant lag up 12 tables, action overload.
when i play 1-4 tables, i'm a lag though.

[4_2_it]

NH, donk. <font color="white"> j/k </font> /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DeadlyGambit]

I like it. On the flop you have a ton of FE against a nit, plus a powerful draw.

[Gugel]

a few of you seem to think that it is correct to fold AQs. it is not.

What do you do if you have AJs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear fold.

What do you do if you have AKs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear reraise.

AQs is somewhere in the middle. It is a pretty clear call.

[Sir Winalot]

Preflop is a little slim if you think he's nit. Flop I would c/r all-in, it would be a psr.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
a few of you seem to think that it is correct to fold AQs. it is not.

What do you do if you have AJs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear fold.

What do you do if you have AKs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear reraise.

AQs is somewhere in the middle. It is a pretty clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a very nitty player I think it is ok to fold here
AJ and AQ are pretty much the same in this spot unless villian has A10.

dont think AK is always a RR here either IMO

And why post this hand if you think you played it perfectly?

[Panthro]

[ QUOTE ]
a few of you seem to think that it is correct to fold AQs. it is not.

What do you do if you have AJs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear fold.

What do you do if you have AKs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear reraise.

AQs is somewhere in the middle. It is a pretty clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How nitty was villain? I really don't think calling a reraise OOP with AQs against a nit is a clear call. Infact, depending on how nitty his stats are, I think it's a clear fold. I'm not so sure about 4-betting a nit w/ AKs either.

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
a few of you seem to think that it is correct to fold AQs. it is not.

What do you do if you have AJs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear fold.

What do you do if you have AKs preflop in this hand? Pretty clear reraise.

AQs is somewhere in the middle. It is a pretty clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[jonyy6788]

I was villain...on tilt afterwards.

Your thinking here is quite flawed though. What is the difference between AJs and AQs, none. I don't know what my stats were at that table, but basically unknown. You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal. I 3-bet you from MP with you thinking I'm a "nit", so you instacall AQs and insta4bet AK...HORRIBLE

Also, on that flop, there's zero, and I mean zero fold equity against my 3-bet range there if I'm a nit. Let's think about APPLYING A RANGE AND DOING EV MOVES INSTEAD OF 12 TABLING. JJ+ is what I would consider quite wide range for your typical NL50 game. It's more like QQ-AA. Let's assume JJ+ though.

Flop Jxx, against JJ you have a horrible FD. Against QQ you have FD+1over (46.5%), same for KK (46.5). Against AA, you have a FD (35%). You also have no fold equity here unless you really think I would 3-bet AK or light (in which case calling AQs OOP is still -EV).

AQs to a 3-bet is a fold in my mind OOP. If my range is JJ-AA, AK....how are you gonna profit OOP? It takes a miracle flop or suckout. If I have JJ-KK and you hit your ace, I'm not paying you. If I have KK, you hit your Q, you waste a lot of money check/calling. I could go on and on, but it's just a losing proposition without reads (you didn't have reads, you had stats, which indicated you shoulda folded in the first place).

[avfletch]

If he's that much of a nit then fold preflop.

Why make such a small check-raise while still leaving yourself pot committed. check-raise allin and maximise your fold equity.

[corsakh]

A nit on a button is one tenth of a nit UTG.

[emon87]

Is the typical reraise range for these games really so slim?

I would 3-bet AK and AKs routinely here (if I was villain).

Or, are you saying that because villian was perceived as a nit the 3-bet range is so small?

[jonyy6788]

He implied that I was a nit, like I said, I haven't bothered to look at my stats at that table. NL50 at Stars at 3pm in the afternoon is not seeing 3-betting light.

P.S. I look forward to getting my $50 back....

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
I was villain...on tilt afterwards.

Your thinking here is quite flawed though. What is the difference between AJs and AQs, none. <font color="blue"> I think you're correct in this case. </font> I don't know what my stats were at that table, but basically unknown. You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal. <font color="blue"> OK, now I see where he got that nit read. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Raising AQs UTG is as standard as it gets. </font> I 3-bet you from MP with you thinking I'm a "nit", so you instacall AQs and insta4bet AK...HORRIBLE<font color="blue"> Yup, totally agree. </font>

Also, on that flop, there's zero, and I mean zero fold equity against my 3-bet range there if I'm a nit. <font color="blue"> I disagree on this one. </font> Let's think about APPLYING A RANGE AND DOING EV MOVES INSTEAD OF 12 TABLING. JJ+ is what I would consider quite wide range for your typical NL50 game. It's more like QQ-AA. Let's assume JJ+ though.<font color="blue">Nits raise AK here. I'd say it's more like JJ+, AK </font>

Flop Jxx, against JJ you have a horrible FD. <font color="blue"> FE = 0, yes. </font> Against QQ you have FD+1over (46.5%) <font color="blue"> .. and maybe some FE if villain is a nit. </font> , same for KK (46.5). Against AA, you have a FD (35%). <font color="blue"> Yeah, I don't think he'll ever fold AA/KK here. </font> You also have no fold equity here unless you really think I would 3-bet AK or light (in which case calling AQs OOP is still -EV).

AQs to a 3-bet is a fold in my mind OOP. <font color="blue"> Against a nit, yes. </font> If my range is JJ-AA, AK....how are you gonna profit OOP? It takes a miracle flop or suckout. If I have JJ-KK and you hit your ace, I'm not paying you. If I have KK, you hit your Q, you waste a lot of money check/calling. I could go on and on, but it's just a losing proposition without reads (you didn't have reads, you had stats, which indicated you shoulda folded in the first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

[HitNRunPoster]

I didn't look at the hand -- you don't want help on it.

Both of you should shut up at the table.

[emon87]

[ QUOTE ]
He implied that I was a nit, like I said, I haven't bothered to look at my stats at that table. NL50 at Stars at 3pm in the afternoon is not seeing 3-betting light.



[/ QUOTE ]


So against a more typical/unknown villian it would be a call?

Also, you need to get over it, you're still tilting because of it.

[jonyy6788]

Yes, AQs is standard raise UTG yes....but you can't play it like a retard postflop.

I normally run 18/14, up to 22/18

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't look at the hand -- you don't want help on it.

Both of you should shut up at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. I think you can say at the table something like this, no problem.

But here at the forums I don't think there's any reason whatsoever for OP or the "nitty 2+2'er" to get angry on each other (I picked a little aggression in your writings, please correct me if I'm wrong). It's just poker, and we're supposed to be in the same team after all, no?

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was villain...on tilt afterwards.

Your thinking here is quite flawed though. What is the difference between AJs and AQs, none. <font color="blue"> I think you're correct in this case. </font> I don't know what my stats were at that table, but basically unknown. You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal. <font color="blue"> OK, now I see where he got that nit read. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Raising AQs UTG is as standard as it gets. </font> I 3-bet you from MP with you thinking I'm a "nit", so you instacall AQs and insta4bet AK...HORRIBLE<font color="blue"> Yup, totally agree. </font>

Also, on that flop, there's zero, and I mean zero fold equity against my 3-bet range there if I'm a nit. <font color="blue"> I disagree on this one. </font> Let's think about APPLYING A RANGE AND DOING EV MOVES INSTEAD OF 12 TABLING. JJ+ is what I would consider quite wide range for your typical NL50 game. It's more like QQ-AA. Let's assume JJ+ though.<font color="blue">Nits raise AK here. I'd say it's more like JJ+, AK </font>

Flop Jxx, against JJ you have a horrible FD. <font color="blue"> FE = 0, yes. </font> Against QQ you have FD+1over (46.5%) <font color="blue"> .. and maybe some FE if villain is a nit. </font> , same for KK (46.5). Against AA, you have a FD (35%). <font color="blue"> Yeah, I don't think he'll ever fold AA/KK here. </font> You also have no fold equity here unless you really think I would 3-bet AK or light (in which case calling AQs OOP is still -EV).

AQs to a 3-bet is a fold in my mind OOP. <font color="blue"> Against a nit, yes. </font> If my range is JJ-AA, AK....how are you gonna profit OOP? It takes a miracle flop or suckout. If I have JJ-KK and you hit your ace, I'm not paying you. If I have KK, you hit your Q, you waste a lot of money check/calling. I could go on and on, but it's just a losing proposition without reads (you didn't have reads, you had stats, which indicated you shoulda folded in the first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on, Sir.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He implied that I was a nit, like I said, I haven't bothered to look at my stats at that table. NL50 at Stars at 3pm in the afternoon is not seeing 3-betting light.



[/ QUOTE ]


So against a more typical/unknown villian it would be a call?

Also, you need to get over it, you're still tilting because of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think it's really really marginal to call a 3-bet with AQs there, unless I'm a 45/25 or 30/20. Most (~95-97% people at 50s don't 3-bet without AK, JJ-AA....especially after an UTG raise.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm not playing anymore. I wasn't really tilting b/c I lost this hand, more about other hands on other tables. It also bothers me to see a 2+2'er making marginal plays OOP, I was PRAYING he posted this and berated me. If he would take time to think things through, he might realize why his move was -EV

EDIT: I'm hoping this post improves your play...you ducked out of the table as soon as I asked if you were 2+2.

I think the moral of this hand is....

a) don't play these types of hands OOP if you really feel
villain is nit

b) think about some context to hand before you auto c/r....think about a context of EVERY hand, it will make you a better player

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't look at the hand -- you don't want help on it.

Both of you should shut up at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. I think you can say at the table something like this, no problem.

But here at the forums I don't think there's any reason whatsoever for OP or the "nitty 2+2'er" to get angry on each other (I picked a little aggression in your writings, please correct me if I'm wrong). It's just poker, and we're supposed to be in the same team after all, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, I read the OP to read that they were having the discussion at the table.

If they were having it via pm on 2p2, that's totally cool.

At the table, it's not good to educate people.

[kurto]

I think the OPs post (regardless of the merits of the hand) is kind of classless.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't look at the hand -- you don't want help on it.

Both of you should shut up at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. I think you can say at the table something like this, no problem.

But here at the forums I don't think there's any reason whatsoever for OP or the "nitty 2+2'er" to get angry on each other (I picked a little aggression in your writings, please correct me if I'm wrong). It's just poker, and we're supposed to be in the same team after all, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, I read the OP to read that they were having the discussion at the table.

If they were having it via pm on 2p2, that's totally cool.

At the table, it's not good to educate people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really worried about 3 people on Stars becoming break-even players because I typed in the window

"please tell me you aren't 2+2"

I AM DONE

[Active Apathy]

Noob question: Is MP's bet considered a 3-bet because Hero made an initial raise of the blinds?

After the flop, it's just called a re-raise, right?

[jd2b2006]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the OPs post (regardless of the merits of the hand) is kind of classless.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT. OP, this should have been taken care of by PM, not by making a post looking to slam a fellow 2p2-er.

[MadMike]

Is AQs more than a 2:1 dog against a AA-JJ, AK range? Don't have pokerstove handy on this computer.

Preflop raise is super standard 5 handed, OOP call of the 3-bet feels a bit thin. I've made similar calls with AQs before and always felt dirty afterwards.

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
I've made similar calls with AQs before and always felt dirty afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

you whore

[LearningCurve]

[ QUOTE ]
Noob question: Is MP's bet considered a 3-bet because Hero made an initial raise of the blinds?

After the flop, it's just called a re-raise, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering the same thing. Seems like the term is used pre- and post-flop. I'm thinking it refers to 3 times whatever the current bet is, but I'm not sure.

[jd2b2006]

[ QUOTE ]
Noob question: Is MP's bet considered a 3-bet because Hero made an initial raise of the blinds?

After the flop, it's just called a re-raise, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

1st question: yes; 3 bet and reraise is the same thing preflop

2nd question: a reraise postflop is the third bet put in; action goes bet, raise, reraise

[ticks]

[ QUOTE ]
1st question: yes; 3 bet and reraise is the same thing preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: bet, raise, reraise are respectively 2bet, 3bet and 4bet.
This is because the blind(s) for some reason is seen as a "bet".

[ADK]

just a question here - would everyone of you go all in on the flop if you had an a-high flush draw like that?

[BalugaWhale]

preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

What's with everyone saying flop is standard? If it was a C/R ALL IN, fine, but Gugel left 16 behind.

[MadMike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've made similar calls with AQs before and always felt dirty afterwards.

[/ QUOTE ]

you whore

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, and?

[orange]

i love 2p2 drama.

[nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

What's with everyone saying flop is standard? If it was a C/R ALL IN, fine, but Gugel left 16 behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, c/r allin is standard, lame 16 behind is just daft, especially when your play is based on fold equity.

[nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't look at the hand -- you don't want help on it.

Both of you should shut up at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. I think you can say at the table something like this, no problem.

But here at the forums I don't think there's any reason whatsoever for OP or the "nitty 2+2'er" to get angry on each other (I picked a little aggression in your writings, please correct me if I'm wrong). It's just poker, and we're supposed to be in the same team after all, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, I read the OP to read that they were having the discussion at the table.

If they were having it via pm on 2p2, that's totally cool.

At the table, it's not good to educate people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really worried about 3 people on Stars becoming break-even players because I typed in the window

"please tell me you aren't 2+2"

I AM DONE

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to learn some discipline, if you're berating people when you lose you've got too much emotion involved in your game.

Also, if you think he played it incorrectly, why exactly is that a bad thing for you? Don't you want your opponents to play badly?

I suppose it depends on if you're playing to win money, or playing to prove you're the big man.

[PotatoStew]

Could someone explain to me why c/r all-in w/ a flush draw here is standard? It seems to me that at best you double up when heads up, and you don't really have enough outs to make this worth it. Is it the fold equity that makes the play +EV?

For instance, if you knew that your opponent *never* folded post flop, would a c/r all-in still be appropriate?

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't look at the hand -- you don't want help on it.

Both of you should shut up at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. I think you can say at the table something like this, no problem.

But here at the forums I don't think there's any reason whatsoever for OP or the "nitty 2+2'er" to get angry on each other (I picked a little aggression in your writings, please correct me if I'm wrong). It's just poker, and we're supposed to be in the same team after all, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, I read the OP to read that they were having the discussion at the table.

If they were having it via pm on 2p2, that's totally cool.

At the table, it's not good to educate people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm really worried about 3 people on Stars becoming break-even players because I typed in the window

"please tell me you aren't 2+2"

I AM DONE

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to learn some discipline, if you're berating people when you lose you've got too much emotion involved in your game.

Also, if you think he played it incorrectly, why exactly is that a bad thing for you? Don't you want your opponents to play badly?

I suppose it depends on if you're playing to win money, or playing to prove you're the big man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, didn't know I had a tilt problem until you mentioned it....oh wait, look through the post and you see I mentioned tilt.

To answer the last question he thought 2overs+FD which would be ahead of any other hand besides JJ. Fold equity was the only shot he had, and he had none against me. I put QQ or even AJ or FD in his range and he was pot committed with his $21 raise, so I pushed. On this flop, if you think about it, he only folds hands he's ahead of (AK or a bluff 3-bet light). And he's behind a range of JJ-AA (the hands that call/push). I'm officially done defending anything in this post, but if people ask legitimate questions about FE, etc, I will answer.

[kitaristi0]

Fold to the PF reraise. Shove the flop rather than making it $27.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
i love 2p2 drama.

[/ QUOTE ]

NIT FIGHT!!!!!

[Gugel]

i'm playing 12 tables right now but i cant wait to respond

[Gugel]

I was gonna send this in a PM, but I guess starting this post was kinda douche bag thing to do, so I'll try to make amends.

jonyy6788, I think our prides got the best of us. I hope there are no hard feelings.

Anyway, before I give you my thoughts, let me introduce myself. I normally 12-table $0.50/$1 NL. My winrate is 5PTBB/100 or approximately 100BB/hour over 150,000 recorded hands or so. I'm telling you not to brag, but so you give me a little respect.

Anyway, the way we see poker might not mesh. I probably play very different than you do and you might not see my perspective.

I play pretty nitty when I 12-table. You get way too much action to handle if you play loose. BUT, my reraise range on the button is pretty large in this situation. I have 108 hands on you with a VPIP of 17% and a PFR of 14%. I’m even tighter than you and I will reraise the UTG with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, AKs, AQs and sometimes even TT or 99. You raise $4 into a $8.75 pot preflop, giving me ~2:1 on my money. I basically need to win 1/3 of the time to be neutral EV. Most of the hands in your range I have over 33% equity and I'm around 50% some hands making this a very clear call. I will almost never fold AQs here.

The flop play was pretty standard. A push would have been fine, but my bet made the pot $50 and left me $16 behind. I'm obviously completely pot committed, so for all intensive purposes it's equal to a push. I don't think a push would have provided me much more fold equity than my checkraise, but nevertheless, I concede that it may in fact be a slightly better play.

Once again, I hope there are no hard feelings and we can have respect for each other at the table. I look forward to playing with you in the future.

[optimus_prime]

comment when your not drunk...
ps i look up my own posts

[dodgybob]

[ QUOTE ]
I was gonna send this in a PM, but I guess starting this post was kinda douche bag thing to do, so I'll try to make amends.

jonyy6788, I think our prides got the best of us. I hope there are no hard feelings.

Anyway, before I give you my thoughts, let me introduce myself. I normally 12-table $0.50/$1 NL. My winrate is 5PTBB/100 or approximately 100BB/hour over 150,000 recorded hands or so. I'm telling you not to brag, but so you give me a little respect.

Anyway, the way we see poker might not mesh. I probably play very different than you do and you might not see my perspective.

I play pretty nitty when I 12-table. You get way too much action to handle if you play loose. BUT, my reraise range on the button is pretty large in this situation. I have 108 hands on you with a VPIP of 17% and a PFR of 14%. I’m even tighter than you and I will reraise the UTG with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, AKs, AQs and sometimes even TT or 99. You raise $4 into a $8.75 pot preflop, giving me ~2:1 on my money. I basically need to win 1/3 of the time to be neutral EV. Most of the hands in your range I have over 33% equity and I'm around 50% some hands making this a very clear call. I will almost never fold AQs here.

The flop play was pretty standard. A push would have been fine, but my bet made the pot $50 and left me $16 behind. I'm obviously completely pot committed, so for all intensive purposes it's equal to a push. I don't think a push would have provided me much more fold equity than my checkraise, but nevertheless, I concede that it may in fact be a slightly better play.

Once again, I hope there are no hard feelings and we can have respect for each other at the table. I look forward to playing with you in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh.

[HitNRunPoster]

Post deleted by HitNRunPoster

[lippy]

I call the reraise all day, monster implied odds since his range is so narrow. All we have to do is be able to get away from TPGK or TPTK.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
I was gonna send this in a PM, but I guess starting this post was kinda douche bag thing to do, so I'll try to make amends.

jonyy6788, I think our prides got the best of us. I hope there are no hard feelings.

Anyway, before I give you my thoughts, let me introduce myself. I normally 12-table $0.50/$1 NL. My winrate is 5PTBB/100 or approximately 100BB/hour over 150,000 recorded hands or so. I'm telling you not to brag, but so you give me a little respect.

Anyway, the way we see poker might not mesh. I probably play very different than you do and you might not see my perspective.

I play pretty nitty when I 12-table. You get way too much action to handle if you play loose. BUT, my reraise range on the button is pretty large in this situation. I have 108 hands on you with a VPIP of 17% and a PFR of 14%. I’m even tighter than you and I will reraise the UTG with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, AKs, AQs and sometimes even TT or 99. You raise $4 into a $8.75 pot preflop, giving me ~2:1 on my money. I basically need to win 1/3 of the time to be neutral EV. Most of the hands in your range I have over 33% equity and I'm around 50% some hands making this a very clear call. I will almost never fold AQs here.

The flop play was pretty standard. A push would have been fine, but my bet made the pot $50 and left me $16 behind. I'm obviously completely pot committed, so for all intensive purposes it's equal to a push. I don't think a push would have provided me much more fold equity than my checkraise, but nevertheless, I concede that it may in fact be a slightly better play.

Once again, I hope there are no hard feelings and we can have respect for each other at the table. I look forward to playing with you in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

No worries...I think your post brings up another point. You say your re-raising range, but mine isn't the same. Sometimes we get too caught up in stats and don't pay attention. If you had reads you would realize I don't 3-bet often unless I'm at a tight table.

As for HitNRun...I have no response, I didn't expose the forum, so just be quiet if you don't know what you're talking about....

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]

I call the reraise all day, monster implied odds since his range is so narrow. All we have to do is be able to get away from TPGK or TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you put in even one 2/3 pot bet postflop with TPGK or TPTK when behind, your reverse implied odds take a lot away from your perceived implied odds preflop. Not only that, but the implied odds preflop aren't all that great.

What kind of hand are you going to make that is going to get paid off? QQx you aren't getting much action. AQx you aren't getting much action unless he has AA QQ or AQ.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was villain...on tilt afterwards.

Your thinking here is quite flawed though. What is the difference between AJs and AQs, none. <font color="blue"> I think you're correct in this case. </font> I don't know what my stats were at that table, but basically unknown. You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal. <font color="blue"> OK, now I see where he got that nit read. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Raising AQs UTG is as standard as it gets. </font> I 3-bet you from MP with you thinking I'm a "nit", so you instacall AQs and insta4bet AK...HORRIBLE<font color="blue"> Yup, totally agree. </font>

Also, on that flop, there's zero, and I mean zero fold equity against my 3-bet range there if I'm a nit. <font color="blue"> I disagree on this one. </font> Let's think about APPLYING A RANGE AND DOING EV MOVES INSTEAD OF 12 TABLING. JJ+ is what I would consider quite wide range for your typical NL50 game. It's more like QQ-AA. Let's assume JJ+ though.<font color="blue">Nits raise AK here. I'd say it's more like JJ+, AK </font>

Flop Jxx, against JJ you have a horrible FD. <font color="blue"> FE = 0, yes. </font> Against QQ you have FD+1over (46.5%) <font color="blue"> .. and maybe some FE if villain is a nit. </font> , same for KK (46.5). Against AA, you have a FD (35%). <font color="blue"> Yeah, I don't think he'll ever fold AA/KK here. </font> You also have no fold equity here unless you really think I would 3-bet AK or light (in which case calling AQs OOP is still -EV).

AQs to a 3-bet is a fold in my mind OOP. <font color="blue"> Against a nit, yes. </font> If my range is JJ-AA, AK....how are you gonna profit OOP? It takes a miracle flop or suckout. If I have JJ-KK and you hit your ace, I'm not paying you. If I have KK, you hit your Q, you waste a lot of money check/calling. I could go on and on, but it's just a losing proposition without reads (you didn't have reads, you had stats, which indicated you shoulda folded in the first place).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Church baby!

PS "church" is the new "word"

PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 108 hands on you with a VPIP of 17% and a PFR of 14%. I’m even tighter than you and I will reraise the UTG with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, AKs, AQs and sometimes even TT or 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm like 22/18 and I dont 3bet UTG raises from anyone except fishy maniac types without JJ+, AK. You can't tell 3betting tendency from HUD stats it takes a note or a read on table dynamic. Neither of those you had. You in fact said he was a nit which makes me think his 3betting range is narrow until proven otherwise.

Against JJ+, AK which I think is very accurate for a tight player with no other reads you have 32% equity. This is just shy of the equity you need to call on pot odds alone. However, when you consider the reverse implied odds involved you really need much more equity to make this call. Having gotten to the flop I don't think a checkraise all in is too terrible since you will have some FE against AK and sometimes QQ.

In summation there is little to no value in the preflop call in a vacuum. When you consider RIO it becomes a pretty clear fold. Even if you disagree about the RIO you don't really have much in the way of implied odds either. You're taking what is at best a neutral EV situation and risking your stack. This is a recipe for huge swings.

[Pro Zaxer]

"You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal".

I got up to this point, didn't read anything else, but I just want to say, sorry you're nittier than the nittest nit that ever nat (or is it gnat). Dude 6 max game AQs is a fine hand UTG to raise. I would run away if you repopped me for sure.

[mack848]

[ QUOTE ]
Could someone explain to me why c/r all-in w/ a flush draw here is standard? It seems to me that at best you double up when heads up, and you don't really have enough outs to make this worth it. Is it the fold equity that makes the play +EV?

For instance, if you knew that your opponent *never* folded post flop, would a c/r all-in still be appropriate?

[/ QUOTE ]


It's an straight forward equity problem and you have to consider the decent amount of dead money already in the middle.

To work out what the best move is, you need to estimate your outs vs. his range. In this case it's about 12 outs, giving you around 40% equity. That is, if you push, you will win about 40% of the time.

The pot is $21 and it's $43 to push. So, assuming 0% FE, you are betting $43 to win $64. EV of a push is (0.40 x 64) + (0.60 x 43) = ~$0. So pushing with 0%FE is EV neutral (assuming you corrected estimated his range).

As there is some chance he has AK here and will correctly fold it to a push, then the all-in play on the flop is clearly +EV.

Of course, just because a ply is +EV doesn't necessarily mean that it is the MOST +EV play (although I think it is in this case).

Mind you, I fold to the prf reraise.

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

What's with everyone saying flop is standard? If it was a C/R ALL IN, fine, but Gugel left 16 behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, c/r allin is standard, lame 16 behind is just daft, especially when your play is based on fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]I would say a c/r AI is standard but leaving 16 behind doesn't have to be "daft"...it should be clear to any decent player that the last 16 has to go in with what will be a ~$65 pot. FE should be about the same and could increase if villain reads the partial bet as hero trying to get a call.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
"You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal".

I got up to this point, didn't read anything else, but I just want to say, sorry you're nittier than the nittest nit that ever nat (or is it gnat). Dude 6 max game AQs is a fine hand UTG to raise. I would run away if you repopped me for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Between 18/14 and 22/18 sure is nitville...it's called TAG. And yes, I raise AQ UTG, even AJ, but you have to have the right table/table image to get away with it. It can be a little bit challenging to extract from weaker hands while quite easy to lose your whole stack.

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats about spot right.

Drop the ego. Drop the machismo.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
It also bothers me to see a 2+2'er making marginal plays OOP...

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf?

[Jigsaws]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT.

except i just shove flop.

[kitaristi0]

[ QUOTE ]
I call the reraise all day, monster implied odds since his range is so narrow. All we have to do is be able to get away from TPGK or TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so wrong.

[Messiahkid]

Awesome thread.

Side note: stop effing talking about 2p2 or "Stats" at all of the FTP SSNL tables.

[nuts]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is marginal but passable
flop is standard
drop the egos everyone

[/ QUOTE ]

What's with everyone saying flop is standard? If it was a C/R ALL IN, fine, but Gugel left 16 behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, c/r allin is standard, lame 16 behind is just daft, especially when your play is based on fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]I would say a c/r AI is standard but leaving 16 behind doesn't have to be "daft"...it should be clear to any decent player that the last 16 has to go in with what will be a ~$65 pot. FE should be about the same and could increase if villain reads the partial bet as hero trying to get a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not giving credit to everyone I play against to be able to recognise when someone is pot comitted. better just to push the lot.

[EnderFFX]

"PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)"

$$ most -EV thing you both did. And to those of you who think oh no, a couple people might come here and become break even players:

1) It is money you are taking away from yourself in the long run.
2) It is money you are taking away from us. Booo!
3) People have friends, poker players have friends who play poker. I found this forum from a friend, not from looking on my own.

[Messiahkid]

[ QUOTE ]
"PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)"

$$ most -EV thing you both did. And to those of you who think oh no, a couple people might come here and become break even players:

1) It is money you are taking away from yourself in the long run.
2) It is money you are taking away from us. Booo!
3) People have friends, poker players have friends who play poker. I found this forum from a friend, not from looking on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, great point.

[SCBielski]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)"

$$ most -EV thing you both did. And to those of you who think oh no, a couple people might come here and become break even players:

1) It is money you are taking away from yourself in the long run.
2) It is money you are taking away from us. Booo!
3) People have friends, poker players have friends who play poker. I found this forum from a friend, not from looking on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, great point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really agree here. Do what I did; get your chat banned forever by telling Phil Hellmuth he sucks for busting out with KK vs AA in a preflop all in (donkament of course). As far as the hand goes, lol @ stupid nit, holla.

[Knight Vision]

[ QUOTE ]

Church baby!

PS "church" is the new "word"


[/ QUOTE ]

This can't be right. Anybody who truly knows when/how to use "word" would never follow it with "baby".

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
"PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)"

$$ most -EV thing you both did. And to those of you who think oh no, a couple people might come here and become break even players:

1) It is money you are taking away from yourself in the long run.
2) It is money you are taking away from us. Booo!
3) People have friends, poker players have friends who play poker. I found this forum from a friend, not from looking on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but personally I think this is a bunch of hooey.

The popularity of poker has exploded over the last few years, so every major bookstore carries books from 2+2. And all of their books actively reference the forums here. Hell, go to google and type "poker forum" and 2+2 is the 4th hit. Google any poker topic and you'll find threads on 2+2. I'd bet most people found the forum either from Google or because they've purchased one of the 2+2 books.

We make the most amount of money off of the maniacs and the casual players. These are people who play because it's a hobby, they like to gamble, there are no nearby casinos, etc. This type of player isn't going to make the effort to learn everything the can about poker and how to beat the game. They aren't going to study for hours a day and play hours more to improve.

The fish pool is alive and well. How often do you see the same regulars playing at these limits? Not very often at all. I'll 4 table 25NL 6-max and usually only see 2 or 3 players that I already have in my database. The rest are new.

Saying that talking about statistics or forums like 2+2 at the tables is -EV is just absurd. Sure, maybe a few fish will turn into TAGs, but there are still fish everywhere at these limits and that will never change. Sorry, but this is either EV neutral or just barely -EV. Either way, who cares.


My apologies for the rant. But it's not like 2+2 is some trade secret.

[Knight Vision]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)"

$$ most -EV thing you both did. And to those of you who think oh no, a couple people might come here and become break even players:

1) It is money you are taking away from yourself in the long run.
2) It is money you are taking away from us. Booo!
3) People have friends, poker players have friends who play poker. I found this forum from a friend, not from looking on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but personally I think this is a bunch of hooey.

The popularity of poker has exploded over the last few years, so every major bookstore carries books from 2+2. And all of their books actively reference the forums here. Hell, go to google and type "poker forum" and 2+2 is the 4th hit. Google any poker topic and you'll find threads on 2+2. I'd bet most people found the forum either from Google or because they've purchased one of the 2+2 books.

We make the most amount of money off of the maniacs and the casual players. These are people who play because it's a hobby, they like to gamble, there are no nearby casinos, etc. This type of player isn't going to make the effort to learn everything the can about poker and how to beat the game. They aren't going to study for hours a day and play hours more to improve.

The fish pool is alive and well. How often do you see the same regulars playing at these limits? Not very often at all. I'll 4 table 25NL 6-max and usually only see 2 or 3 players that I already have in my database. The rest are new.

Saying that talking about statistics or forums like 2+2 at the tables is -EV is just absurd. Sure, maybe a few fish will turn into TAGs, but there are still fish everywhere at these limits and that will never change. Sorry, but this is either EV neutral or just barely -EV. Either way, who cares.


My apologies for the rant. But it's not like 2+2 is some trade secret.

[/ QUOTE ]

Church

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]

Church

[/ QUOTE ]

Well apparently it's "Church baby!" I'll start saying this on all my tables and see how many WTF? responses I get.


Oh, and to be remotely on topic, I don't think the flop play is "standard" as many here have said. Hero is beyond committed after his raise with only $16 behind. May as well call and c/r AI the turn, or just shove the flop.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
"PPS MICRO LIMIT PLAYERS PLEASE STOP TELLING EACH OTHER YOUR STATS/TALKING ABOUT 2P2 AT THE TABLES K THNX (not directed at OP but at this forum in general, it seemed like a good place to put it)"

$$ most -EV thing you both did. And to those of you who think oh no, a couple people might come here and become break even players:

1) It is money you are taking away from yourself in the long run.
2) It is money you are taking away from us. Booo!
3) People have friends, poker players have friends who play poker. I found this forum from a friend, not from looking on my own.

[/ QUOTE ]
In comes the fight club mentality again. I disagree with just about everything you said. Ship it.

[Pro Zaxer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"You raise AQs UTG, ok, that's a little marginal".

I got up to this point, didn't read anything else, but I just want to say, sorry you're nittier than the nittest nit that ever nat (or is it gnat). Dude 6 max game AQs is a fine hand UTG to raise. I would run away if you repopped me for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Between 18/14 and 22/18 sure is nitville...it's called TAG. And yes, I raise AQ UTG, even AJ, but you have to have the right table/table image to get away with it. It can be a little bit challenging to extract from weaker hands while quite easy to lose your whole stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said raising a suited AQ UTG in a six max micro game is marginal. Its not marginal under any reasonable circumstances. Image concerns do not support your argument that "its a little marginal". If your image is so tight that you will only get action from hands that dominate or coin flip, you need to raise more hands anyways, why not start with AQs. If your image is so loose, well then you have a nice hand so let them isolate with dominated crap.

You're in a micro game where they will call you with dominated hands more often than the rare monster, and many will let and you know preflop if you are in trouble anyways, you have a post flop edge despite position. C'mon, admit it, nit! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I just saw that it might not be six max but a five handed game anyways. So he's in the hijack. With AQs...

[kitaristi0]

[ QUOTE ]
you have a post flop edge despite position

[/ QUOTE ]

In a reraised pot without the initiative with shallow stacks relative to the pot your edge, if one exists, is small at best.

[Pro Zaxer]

Its a five handed game and he said raising AQs UTG is a little marginal. Its not, ever. Now if you get re-raised by one of the two players with postion on you, sure its usually not that great.

[jonyy6788]

[ QUOTE ]
Its a five handed game and he said raising AQs UTG is a little marginal. Its not, ever. Now if you get re-raised by one of the two players with postion on you, sure its usually not that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's marginal for most players b/c most players can't play postflop. Anybody can play the preflop game. When I'm raising AQ UTG I'm not looking for much action.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm raising AQ UTG I'm not looking for much action.

[/ QUOTE ]
How come?

[kitaristi0]

All,

Stop this 'raising AQ UTG is marginal' nonsense.

Pro Zaxer,

I was just referring to the reraise bit, not the original raise.

[pdoran10]

Why the hell is this a thread?