Could i have avoided this?

[CrustyFace]

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $92.05
UTG+1: $40.80
MP1: $26.50
MP2: $50.85
MP3: $23.80
Crustyface: $79.65
Button: $8.55
SB: $30.90
BB: $16

Pre-flop: (9 players) Crustyface is CO with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#cc0000">Crustyface raises to $2</font>, 3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 7/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.75, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets $3</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Crustyface raises to $9</font>, MP2 calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($24.75, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets $10.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Crustyface raises all-in $68.65</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 calls all-in $29.35</font>.
Uncalled bets: $28.8 returned to Crustyface.

River: 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($104.45, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $104.45)


Results:
Final pot: $104.45

He didnt play it like a set or AA, i thought he had 99 TT or JJ.

[Abramovic]

Raise more preflop.

His turn bet is strange, but I probably do the same.

[King Spew]

I think you have to raise more PF. If it gets folded back to you, meh, queens are pretty good PF lol.

As played, villain bets into you (the PFRer). He's got a made hand or a strong draw. After the weak turn bet, I'm giving him MORE credit for 86s....this is 50NL FTP, he could call PF with anything. He's going to bet more with an overpair IMHO. Set is probable too. You are behind a weak turn bet here. At the table, I'm calling down, not pushing. Though to be honest, I'm not really very good at spotting pushing opportunities.

[CrustyFace]

I've rarely had any problem hands when raising to 4BB in the past. It seems to be an amount that gets respect. In this case i just think there is no much getting away with it and he did play it wrong.

[corsakh]

[ QUOTE ]
In this case i just think there is no much getting away with it and he did play it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
--&gt;

[ QUOTE ]
Raise more preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Disconnected]

I think you're in too much trouble on the turn to push. I would call the turn and see what happens on the river. You've shown a lot of aggression up until the turn, the flop is pretty dry, and a lot of what did exist on the flop either came in on the turn or maybe made 2 pair. Just seems to me that this is a type of hand you're better off calling a moderate bet than having your opponent call a big bet on the turn, given the prior action.

[kurto]

Unless you know a person stinks and will lose it all on a pair... why are we trying to get our whole stacks in with a pair?

[MadMike]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you know a person stinks and will lose it all on a pair... why are we trying to get our whole stacks in with a pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to hear more discussion about this. At limits of 25NL and lower, and probably many 50NL tables, and 100BB stacks, I'm not sure anymore if it is wrong to go the the felt with an overpair QQ+ or even AK/AQ TPTK in a raised pot against most players.

I know we keep hearing about not going broke with 1 pair, but I wonder if being willing to get our stack in with an overpair/TPTK in many situations against the right opponents is the kind of 'mistake' we need to make to maximize our win rate against opponents who will make the bigger mistake of calling with TPGK/lower overpair.

Obviously reads are important- but I'm tending at NL25 to default against an unknown to getting it in the middle with a strong overpair when a weaker overpair or weaker TPGK are a good part of the villians range.

[monkeymaps]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you know a person stinks and will lose it all on a pair... why are we trying to get our whole stacks in with a pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to hear more discussion about this. At limits of 25NL and lower, and probably many 50NL tables, and 100BB stacks, I'm not sure anymore if it is wrong to go the the felt with an overpair QQ+ or even AK/AQ TPTK in a raised pot against most players.

I know we keep hearing about not going broke with 1 pair, but I wonder if being willing to get our stack in with an overpair/TPTK in many situations against the right opponents is the kind of 'mistake' we need to make to maximize our win rate against opponents who will make the bigger mistake of calling with TPGK/lower overpair.

Obviously reads are important- but I'm tending at NL25 to default against an unknown to getting it in the middle with a strong overpair when a weaker overpair or weaker TPGK are a good part of the villians range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is VERY read dependent there are plenty of players at 25NL that I cant wait to felt TPTK and overpairs and others your def not ahead if they call your push.

[Bonesy]

[ QUOTE ]
I've rarely had any problem hands when raising to 4BB in the past. It seems to be an amount that gets respect. In this case i just think there is no much getting away with it and he did play it wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to only 4BB with 2 limpers can't be correct here regardless of your past experiences. You are potentially looking at a 4 or 5 way hand here with QQ's as the limpers aren't going anywhere getting 3to1 odds or better to call.

I haven't played full ring in ages but I would think MP2 would raise hands like JJ's or TT's first in. After the turn donk, you can't be ahead of much unless villain is a complete donk as you have pretty well defined your hand.

I'm going to be a nit here and advise the fold on the turn. You can call and see what he does on the river also. I'm sure I'm being biased by the title of your thread though.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is VERY read dependent there are plenty of players at 25NL that I cant wait to felt TPTK and overpairs and others your def not ahead if they call your push.


[/ QUOTE ]

Wholeheartedly agree. It bothers me that too often I see people treat overpairs or TPTK as the nuts in these threads.

Against an overaggressive idiot I'll gladly put my stack in with an overpair or TPTK.

Against an unknown, I try to exercise pot control with one pair hands.