AA. You get check min raised on flop. Your response?

[Haplo]

SB--29.1/2.78/1.3 in 72 hands

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $18.90
UTG+1: $25
Hero: $40.10
Button: $25.70
SB: $28.30
BB: $17.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.55</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5.15, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $5</font>, UTG folds, Hero......

HERO does what here? What would you do?

I'm curious to see what a lot of people would do here.

[AceLuby]

Pot that flop, it's a VERY good flop for you. Check minraise, hmmm, seems pretty loose passive, but that doesn't mean he can't have all kinds of kings. I think I re-raise here to something in the 13-15 range. If he pushes we have a real decision, do you have any info on the way he has played sets in the past? Readless I re-raise, and being as passive as he seems from the #'s I may fold to resistance.

[SretiCentV]

Smells like a set to me. Since you raised the flop so small though, you're making it easier for someone to reraise you without actually having hit though.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot that flop, it's a VERY good flop for you. Check minraise, hmmm, seems pretty loose passive, but that doesn't mean he can't have all kinds of kings. I think I re-raise here to something in the 13-15 range. If he pushes we have a real decision, do you have any info on the way he has played sets in the past? Readless I re-raise, and being as passive as he seems from the #'s I may fold to resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. Any decent re-raise will leave villain with around 12-15 behind, so he'll push. You'll be getting around 2:1, but given villain's stats I'd be able to toss these if he re-re-raises all-in.

[Sir Winalot]

I'd usually call and shove over his turn bet.

[Marshall28]

ummm, unless u know this player to be a complete nit you shouldnt even consider folding. either make the decision to raise now and call an all in or to flat call his minraise and bet or raise on the turn.

lol do you really consider folding this hand on this board?

[AceLuby]

Folding now is out of the question. If you re-raise and get re-re-raised AI you are either killing his AK or you are getting crushed by his set because I doubt with how passive he is that he would 4 bet AI w/ anything less. This is VERY read dependent and really depends how fast he's played sets vs how fast he plays TP type hands.

[munkey]

Call and evaluate on turn - I'm either shoving or folding the turn.

Board has little draws - { Kx,set or mid PP/ATC, Kxs 2 pair}.
You have to call the flop checkminraise at the very least.

if he pots/shoves turn then you can consider folding but if he bets weakly I'll probably call if he'll likely bet river with margina hands or bluff but usually I'll just raise him/her /images/graemlins/grin.gif AI on turn.

I don't 3bet the flop because weaker mid PPs Kxs will fold which may lead into us on the turn.

[King Spew]

Call and play poker. Your weak CBet could lead to MANY actions by a competent opponent. He probably has a K, maybe a set, possibly bravado. Over his entire range, you have the nuts. Let's see what he does on the turn.

[jd2b2006]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd usually call and shove over his turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[4_2_it]

http://www.303rdbg.com/pp-bombsaway.jpg

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.303rdbg.com/pp-bombsaway.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]
lmao /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MadMike]

call flop. reevaluate best line on turn.

'Reevaluate' here means pushing over a bet, maybe checking behind a blank if I think I can induce a bluff with the villian having crap or a loose call on a river value bet, potting it if checked to on the turn when the turn card brings up any draws.

My experience so far at $25NL is that not going to the felt with a strong overpair in a raised pot and dry flop is a leak. Villian's range is 22,44,AK, KQ, and maybe even KJs. You're ahead of that range here in most circumstances. Sure-a set will stack you every once in a while, but you'll get lots more than that from overplayed TPGK.

[jively]

Several people have said that your flop bet was weak, and they recommend a full-pot bet. I disagree. Your flop bet was fine. (Maybe $2.60 or $2.75 is a little better, just over 1/2 pot.)

This board has no real draws, and you want action from worse hands. A full-pot bet is going to not get much action.

With the min-check raise, with no draws out there, I would definitely call and re-evaluate on the turn. You are in position, so you see if they bet the turn, and how much. You only have 1 pair, and you do not want to get stacked.

-Tom

[kurto]

So... my question... everytime you have an Aces as an overpair to the board, are you losing 100bbs if its not the best hand?

Just trying to figure out how bombing it does nothing but maximize your losses when your behind and fold out a lot of hands that you're beating?

[barryc83]

Call. C/r turn.

[Haplo]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot that flop, it's a VERY good flop for you. Check minraise, hmmm, seems pretty loose passive, but that doesn't mean he can't have all kinds of kings. I think I re-raise here to something in the 13-15 range. If he pushes we have a real decision, do you have any info on the way he has played sets in the past? Readless I re-raise, and being as passive as he seems from the #'s I may fold to resistance.

[/ QUOTE ]

AceLuby--Unfortunately I don't have any info about how he's played sets in the past.

[DeuceSeven]

[ QUOTE ]
Several people have said that your flop bet was weak, and they recommend a full-pot bet. I disagree. Your flop bet was fine. (Maybe $2.60 or $2.75 is a little better, just over 1/2 pot.)

This board has no real draws, and you want action from worse hands. A full-pot bet is going to not get much action.

With the min-check raise, with no draws out there, I would definitely call and re-evaluate on the turn. You are in position, so you see if they bet the turn, and how much. You only have 1 pair, and you do not want to get stacked.

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your line. The only hand that has any decent draw is 35. Given villains stats, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a set. Against an aggressive donk I'm certainly playing more aggressively on the flop. This looks like a decent opponent even though we only have 72 hands to judge this from.

[monkeymaps]

do solid players c/minraise their sets alot? I would never fold this flop at 25NL

[MadMike]

[ QUOTE ]
So... my question... everytime you have an Aces as an overpair to the board, are you losing 100bbs if its not the best hand?

Just trying to figure out how bombing it does nothing but maximize your losses when your behind and fold out a lot of hands that you're beating?

[/ QUOTE ]

The 'bombs away' line (AI on flop or call the flop, and probably wind up getting it in on turn or river) is predicated on the villian not being able to get away from a smaller overpair or TPGK.

I'd love to see some discussion going on if this is generally true or not at the microlimits NL25 or lower. I'm starting to play overpairs and TPTK much more strongly lately, and I'm amazed at what plays back at me. I've 3-bet AI on flops with TPTK and been called by bottom pair with no draw (!) I'm thinking you'll stack worse hands more often than you get stacked by a set at NL25- assuming you don't have a read otherwise.

[Haplo]

[ QUOTE ]
Several people have said that your flop bet was weak, and they recommend a full-pot bet. I disagree. Your flop bet was fine. (Maybe $2.60 or $2.75 is a little better, just over 1/2 pot.)

This board has no real draws, and you want action from worse hands. A full-pot bet is going to not get much action.

With the min-check raise, with no draws out there, I would definitely call and re-evaluate on the turn. You are in position, so you see if they bet the turn, and how much. You only have 1 pair, and you do not want to get stacked.

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Jively. These were my thoughts exactly. If I was cbetting with nothing, this is how I would bet anyways. The board really is not drawy, so why should I bet any differently (i.e. the pot or 3/4 pot)

I called by the way. I will post the rest of the hand in a moment.

[BukNaked36]

You're making this more difficult by making such a weak flop bet. Villian could definitely interpret this as weakness and just be trying to push you off your hand.

Anyhow, as played, raise to $12-$15 and call a push.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
So... my question... everytime you have an Aces as an overpair to the board, are you losing 100bbs if its not the best hand?

Just trying to figure out how bombing it does nothing but maximize your losses when your behind and fold out a lot of hands that you're beating?

[/ QUOTE ]

If AA is ahead of villain's range (which it will be a lot of times in NL$25), then not getting AI against a community of villains who like to stack off with overpairs, TP and draws is a bigger leak then occasionally paying off a set.

Sure, you have to be able to fold AA, but I need a read based on my previous observation of villain's play (not just PT stats) to make it with this type of board/action.

[BukNaked36]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So... my question... everytime you have an Aces as an overpair to the board, are you losing 100bbs if its not the best hand?

Just trying to figure out how bombing it does nothing but maximize your losses when your behind and fold out a lot of hands that you're beating?

[/ QUOTE ]

The 'bombs away' line (AI on flop or call the flop, and probably wind up getting it in on turn or river) is predicated on the villian not being able to get away from a smaller overpair or TPGK.

I'd love to see some discussion going on if this is generally true or not at the microlimits NL25 or lower. I'm starting to play overpairs and TPTK much more strongly lately, and I'm amazed at what plays back at me. I've 3-bet AI on flops with TPTK and been called by bottom pair with no draw (!) I'm thinking you'll stack worse hands more often than you get stacked by a set at NL25- assuming you don't have a read otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming the board has any draw possibilites at all, people always think you're drawing and call with crap, betting you won't hit.

I'll push 2pair, and sets on a draw heavy board specifically for this reason.

[Haplo]

Here is the turn and river:

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $18.90
UTG+1: $25
Hero: $40.10
Button: $25.70
SB: $28.30
BB: $17.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $1.55</font>, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5.15, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $2.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $5</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($15.15, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $6.75</font>, Hero calls.

River: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif ($28.65, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB is all-in $15</font>, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $58.65
<font color="#ffffff">Hero showed Ad Ac</font>
<font color="#ffffff">SB showed Ah Kd</font>


Question: 1) Do you raise the turn or just be conservative and call it as I did?

[orange]

Call/shove turn. I like your flop line, I would typically call and bomb turn. Don't like 3-betting flop as much, no draws, etc. I expect to see a hand like AK/KQ/etc.

[monkeymaps]

It depends if I think villian is "value betting" a worse hand I push turn. If I am unsure/think he is FOS I just call.

In this hand I would push turn there are so many TP hands that pay you off.

[BukNaked36]

I like trying to get it in on the flop.

IMO pushing over this turn bet shows a lot more strength than a flop reraise. The bells and whistles go off and Baluga thereom comes to mind. In my poker language -

flop reraise - BS, you don't have a king

turn overpush - I'm beating your ass, now give me your money

At least in this case, it looks you might be pushing some sort of heart draw.

If I don't raise the flop, I probably call down as hero does.

[kurto]

I certainly agree with 4-2-it that a read is helpful. I just question what the 'default' read is (even at $25).

I play mostly $25 and $50 tables. There are plenty of nitty players. I still think more players are NOT willing to be stacked with just top pair then those who will.

So, my default play is not to get it all in with an overpair against any unknown.

Don't get me wrong-- there was a hand I was quite happy with the other night where I called a raise preflop with AQ on the button. A person in early position led on the flop, the raiser raised him and I pushed... entirely based on my read of the players. But in this case I knew that this player was overly aggressive and willing to put in his stack with top pair ANY kicker.

In this particular hand... I don't think MOST villains are going to checkraise a preflop raiser with top pair... they certainly are aware that he could have AK, an overpair, etc. I tend to think that if they had a king they're more likely to lead into the hero or call.

[Haplo]

He turned out to have AK offsuit. Thanks for the comments everyone.

[Ben86]

Im shoving this turn i put him on KQ

[BalugaWhale]

3betting flop is fine, he wont fold a K

as played, definitely push over the turn... he still wont fold a K and that 4 is a great card for you.