50NL 6m: KK PF 4 bet into me

[homeslice]

Villian is loose and somewhat aggressive, I've played 30+ orbits with him, and he hasn't demonstrated such strength previously. I'm certain he's got KK+ when he comes over the top of me. What would you do here?

Given my read is folding this here everytime -EV?
Given my read is pushing this here everytime +EV?
If I call, and I have an overpair on the flop, and villian pushes, do you call?



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($82.70)
BB ($23.80)
UTG ($82.40)
MP ($8.50)
CO ($66.55)
Button ($30.75)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $1.5</font>, MP calls $1.50, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $24</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $42</font>, MP folds, CO folds, Hero ???

[TheCutter]

Don't fold KK preflop in uNL games.

[sawedust]

For me, the fourth raise is usually aces. That being said, I would fold here because I would need 5 to 1 odds (or was it 4 to 1??.. 81/19) to have a shot at going up against AA in this spot.

[lacrymosa]

I would need a sick read to fold this hand at uNL. He'd have to be smething like 15/10 for me to fold this.

[MortenTA]

[ QUOTE ]
For me, the fourth raise is usually aces. That being said, I would fold here because I would need 5 to 1 odds (or was it 4 to 1??.. 81/19) to have a shot at going up against AA in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

for these odds to be right villain has to have AA 100% of the time.... I dont think so Tim...

[Javanewt]

I'd call, especially if I was certain he had KK;) I'd call, anyway, though.

[Abramovic]

I always call and always lose to aces.

[Fiksdal]

Btw.. villain hasn't pushed, his raise is a clickraise for half his stack. So we certainly can't just call, we gotta raise him all-in.

[ QUOTE ]

Don't fold KK preflop in uNL games.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is rubbish. I'll give you an example where KK should be folded preflop at uNL. This could be 50NL or whatever:
You are playing a session which has lasted for like 4 hours. One of the villains has been at your table for the entire time. He has been nitting it up like crazy, playing very few hands, only showing down monsters. He has been payed off though, so he has now got a 600bb stack. You have also stacked people several times, and have 700bbs. You have been playing standard TAG style. Anyway...

9-handed
You have K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG(villain) raises to 4bb, 7 folds, Hero raises to 13bb, BB folds, UTG raises to 30bb, Hero raises to 80bb, UTG raises all-in to 600bb.

You shold obviously fold your KK here.


I know you are rarely this deep, but my point is don't make general rules like this.

For the OP hand, what range do you guys actually put UTG on? You think he would do this with AK? JJ? QQ? Consider his range before you push.

[homeslice]

[ QUOTE ]


For the OP hand, what range do you guys actually put UTG on? You think he would do this with AK? JJ? QQ? Consider his range before you push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though he's UTG, his opening range is wide 22+, hell even JTs, but whenever I've come over the top of him, he's folded. This is why I fairly certain he's got KK+. I don't see him making a play like this with AK.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]


For the OP hand, what range do you guys actually put UTG on? You think he would do this with AK? JJ? QQ? Consider his range before you push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though he's UTG, his opening range is wide 22+, hell even JTs, but whenever I've come over the top of him, he's folded. This is why I fairly certain he's got KK+. I don't see him making a play like this with AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and especially since CO's raise was in between. I think UTG has a range of QQ+ or KK+ here. I fold.

[MadMike]

I'd need a heck of a read here to fold this.
There are players out there that I'll fold KK to PF- on stars there are a couple multitabling set-mining nits that I've only seen raise (much less 3-bet) PF with AA.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd need a heck of a read here to fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please put UTG on a range before you make this decision. I fold this against an unknown.

[MortenTA]

I think the saying is

[ QUOTE ]

Don't fold KK preflop for 100BB in uNL games.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]

Don't fold KK preflop [/b]going up against one or two villains for &gt; 100BB[/b] in uNL games.


[/ QUOTE ]
There, this is a statement I agree with.

[Acein8ter]

I'd put him AI, if your up against AA, its just too bad. (Hope to hit a set)

He may want to buy the pot PF here? Anyway, you can also put him on AK, AQ, QQ as he knows that they are very strong hands in 6 max. You have an edge on these hands and are only a dog to one. Put him AI...

[4_2_it]

Very easy push. I'll stack off 150 bbs with KK preflop against all but the nittiest (think 8/1/.01) of villains.

[MadMike]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd need a heck of a read here to fold this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please put UTG on a range before you make this decision. I fold this against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play NL25 on Stars, and against an unknown there is a significant likelyhood of a really wide range which would include AA-TT, AK, AJs+ or even more nutty stuff.

I'll try to find the hand, but last week I had KK in EP, raised 4xBB, had a MP player re-raise, and the SB push with almost a full buy-in (it was NL25). I called, as did MP. SB showed JTs and MP had QQ. I remember the hand because SB sucked out with a flush...

I had another hand where I someone 5-bet AI against me with AQs PF- I had AA. I've seen 4-bet AI's with mid-PP's. (midPP raises EP, someone 3-bets in LP, MidPP pushes since the re-raise has to be AK...)

Until I stop seeing this happen, I'm not folding KK PF against an unknown at 25NL. If I don't see this happen at 50NL when I move up, then I'll adjust my default of felting KK PF against an unknown with 100BB stacks.

[AaronOC]

especially after investing $24 into this pot already, you almost have to be 100% certain he has aces to lay that down

[Mrage]

No way I'm folding, especially with all the dead money in the pot.

[AceLuby]

[ QUOTE ]
especially after investing $24 into this pot already, you almost have to be 100% certain he has aces to lay that down

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have anything on how fast he has played AA before? This smells like AA, but his range has to be QQ+, AK... I mean can we really narrow it down any further? You have to call w/ that range.