Take it to the limit [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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ettorek

12-27-2006, 08:12 PM

One of the biggest problem (leak?) in the way I play is breaking the wall where is signed "Are you sure to put ALL your money in the pot?".

I think that there is a period during the evolution of a poker player when became necessary to realize that you MUST take some borderline decision: "Welcome to the coinflip world!!!"

I wish to ask you: I'm in the right path to the right way to play or I'm far from it?

Here are some hands played lately just to show what I mean.

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1, 4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.7, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $1.4, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($3.8, 2 players)
BB bets $2.25, Hero calls.

River: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($8.3, 2 players)
BB bets $6.9, Hero raises to $13.8, BB raises all-in $40.35, Hero calls all-in $20.25.
Uncalled bets: $6.3 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: $76.4
BB shows 5s Qh
Hero shows Jd Jc

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.25
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Button raises to $1, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($3.25, 3 players)
CO checks, Button bets $1.75, Hero raises to $3.5, CO folds, Button raises all-in $14.71, Hero calls.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($32.67, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $32.67)

River: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif ($32.67, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $32.67)

Results:
Final pot: $32.67
Button shows Jc Jd
Hero shows 4h 4d

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 4/images/graemlins/club.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO raises to $1, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.4, 3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $4, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($11.4, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO is all-in $36, Hero calls all-in $13.21.
Uncalled bets: $22.79 returned to CO.

River: 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($37.82, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $37.82)

Results:
Final pot: $37.82
CO shows Jd 6d
Hero shows 4c Ac

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.15/$0.25
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Hero raises to $1.75, 4 folds, CO calls.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($4.4, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3, CO raises all-in $20.39, Hero calls all-in $15.53.
Uncalled bets: $1.86 returned to CO.

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($41.46, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $41.46)

River: 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($41.46, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $41.46)

Results:
Final pot: $41.46

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises to $3, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button calls.

Flop: 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($10, 3 players)
Hero bets $7.5, UTG+1 raises to $15, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($40, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 is all-in $14.85, Hero calls.

River: A/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($69.7, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $69.7)

Results:
Final pot: $69.7
UTG+1 shows 7d 7c
Hero shows Qc Qd

lsaw2

12-27-2006, 08:40 PM

Firstly stack sizes are hugely important so you should display them for each hand you post, secondly dont post so many hands in 1 thread, there are no real questions on them, i'll quickly read through and post my thoughts....

Hand 1 JJ

Raise PF, as played do more than min raise on the flop. Also think of more options other than, calling and min raising. You have a strong pair preflop and there are 4 in, that then means u'r hand is rubbish if an overcard hits. Wowy you hit your set, great hand, yet you're not betting?

Hand 2 44
Nothing wrong with calling PF. But you hit your set and there is a flush draw out, raise to something like 5/6 not min raise. nh.

Hand 3 Ac4c
Dont open limp pre flop, just fold. Don't call the flop bet as you aren't getting the odds to hit your flush. The bottom pair doesn't really strengthen your hand so I cant understand calling all in? eeeurgh. yuck.

Hand 4 Ad8d
Well done for raising PF on the BTN but why with A8 and not JJ etc??
Leading the flop is fine, calling the allin seems pretty marginal depending on the player and reads etc. It's a gamble, but not necesarily one i'd want to take.

Hand 5 QcQd
Raise more PF as you will be out of position on the flop, (why the switch up in levels lol).
Leading the flop is good, you obv can either just call the min RR or shove. Neither is wrong. I dont know why you then check the turn unless you put your oppenet on a weaker hand that he will push, obv you have to call on the turn. Imagine the villain had checked turn behind you and the A had hit, that's why you should bet the turn!

jd2b2006

12-27-2006, 08:43 PM

Hand 1: Raise it up preflop. As played, raise flop to 3. Do your best to get all the monies in ASAP.

Hand 2: On a board like this, I would lead for about 2.50-3.

Hand 3: Raise or fold preflop. Open limping A4s UTG is bad.

Hand 4: I would bet 3.5-4 on the flop and then call the AI raise as pair + nut flush draw + overcard = swank hand.

Hand 5: I would push over UTG+1's raise since half their stack is in already.

futuredoc85

12-27-2006, 08:55 PM

you run really really good

ettorek

12-28-2006, 04:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly stack sizes are hugely important so you should display them for each hand you post, secondly dont post so many hands in 1 thread, there are no real questions on them...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the hints:this is my first post of played hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree with you about the preflop rising but what stop me to do that all the time is basically because I play 4 to 6 tables and this thing seems to me quite expensive: anyway when you hit you can easily stack your opponent so I'll pay more attention.
Thanks for your answers!

ettorek

12-28-2006, 04:32 AM

So seems to me that I have to really improve betsizing and in leading pot: thanks!

ettorek

12-28-2006, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you run really really good

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice rush of card do you mean? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

DeuceSeven

12-28-2006, 04:54 AM

First off I'm a 5c/10c NL 6 Max donk.

Hand 1:

Preflop: You have to raise here. Unless you're being tricky on occasion. Raising JJ less then 99% of the time at the CO is a big mistake.

Flop: Well you limped and hit the jackpot. The minraise is awful, make it close to $3.

Turn: Raise to $8, I might even push here, these types of hands you have to bet strongly to get the most value from them.

River: I'm getting all my chips in somewhere in the hand.

Hand 2: Stop minraising your sets. It worked out for you this time.

Hand 3:

Preflop: Preflop, if the table is very passive I *might* limp with suited Axs. I would generally fold this in ep and fold to the raise, I'm only happy if I flop 2 pair, flush, or a flush draw.

Flop: Thats a great flop for you, it missed most hands that would raise preflop. I'd lead out for 1/2 to 2/3 the pot. As played I fold.

Turn: Fold

This all based on no reads. I'm tired, so I'll just analyze those first 3 hands.

DeuceSeven

12-28-2006, 04:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Firstly stack sizes are hugely important so you should display them for each hand you post, secondly dont post so many hands in 1 thread, there are no real questions on them...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the hints:this is my first post of played hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree with you about the preflop rising but what stop me to do that all the time is basically because I play 4 to 6 tables and this thing seems to me quite expensive: anyway when you hit you can easily stack your opponent so I'll pay more attention.
Thanks for your answers!

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to really get better, play at most 2 tables to start. From you preflop play, betting, and raising, I would work on your game. That's what I'm doing right now.

Heavens_Myst

12-28-2006, 05:09 AM

Stop min-raising, like it has been said.

And yes, you run reallly good /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ettorek

12-28-2006, 08:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to really get better, play at most 2 tables to start. From you preflop play, betting, and raising, I would work on your game. That's what I'm doing right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I think I really need help to improve.

monkover

12-28-2006, 09:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
]

Thanks for the hints:this is my first post of played hands. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree with you about the preflop rising but what stop me to do that all the time is basically because I play 4 to 6 tables and this thing seems to me quite expensive:

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to push your edges!!! Not doing this because it seems expensive is a huge mistake!!!! Rather play less tables then...

ettorek

12-28-2006, 10:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have to push your edges!!! Not doing this because it seems expensive is a huge mistake!!!! Rather play less tables then...

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right and this is the point of this post: to win the fear to play situations where you are not ahead 100% pushing your edges.

Bonesy

12-28-2006, 11:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you want to really get better, play at most 2 tables to start. From you preflop play, betting, and raising, I would work on your game. That's what I'm doing right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I think I really need help to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands 4 and 5 were the best played hands by you.

Hand 4 is standard

Hand 5 I'm probably pushing on the flop after the reraise. Sets usually don't play this way. But your way induced another bet so nice hand there.

Keep posting here and reading over other posts and you will get much better and quickly. Post less hands at one time though as you will get better responses. Also, read the microstakes FAQ. Great stuff in there.

EscapePlan9

12-28-2006, 11:14 AM

Plz stop the min-raises, k thx. That or play limit.

ettorek

12-28-2006, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Plz stop the min-raises, k thx. That or play limit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Already stopped! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

RAHZero

12-28-2006, 04:55 PM

Hand 1: Raise this PF and raise the turn for the love of God! Calling that small bet here is terrible on this drawy board. Your minraise on that drawy flop is also horrid, make it at least $3. As played, gladly get all of your money in on the river, you beat a ton of lone queens here.

Hand 2: Don't minraise the flop. This is the twice in a row you've done this, so it looks like it's a bad habit of yours. Min-raises fail to get money in the pot when you have the best of it, and give you opponents very good odds with drawing hands. There are [rare] places for the min-raise, but this is not one of them. As played, this is a snap-insta-call! I beat villain into the pot here, this is AA-QQ like all the time, sometimes even JJ and TT.

Hand 3: Don't open-limp, especially UTG, in 6-max. Just fold this PF. As played, I like a flop check-raise here. As played, I probably fold the turn, you're only getting 2:1 here and you can't be sure if all your outs are good. However, given what villain showed down, I'll assume you had a read, in which case the call's fine.

Hand 4: I make a bigger c-bet, to around $4. As played, you're getting 1.73:1 on a call here. It's a bit thin with just bottom pair + nut flush draw, and I'd usually let it go. If you had made a bigger c-bet, then it'd be an easy call of a push.

Hand 5: I probably push the flop. The way you played it is fine though.

Just for future reference, try to keep it to one hand per post, and post stack sizes. I also noticed in a couple hands that you don't seem to have a full stack. Make it a habit of rebuying whenever your stacks fall below 100 BBs.

ettorek

12-29-2006, 10:36 AM

Thanks for your help, the minraise is a bad habit and, probably, the greatest problem of mine: I'm working on it. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wolfram

12-29-2006, 11:42 AM

I stopped reading after hand 1.

Not only is it horribly played (Raise pf for gods sake! Never minraise! Raise the turn!) it just ends up being another BBV post. And don't include results.

mack848

12-29-2006, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped reading after hand 1.

Not only is it horribly played (Raise pf for gods sake! Never minraise! Raise the turn!) it just ends up being another BBV post. And don't include results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfair IMO. If you don't like the post, ignore it. You add nothing to the thread.

ettorek

12-29-2006, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped reading after hand 1.

Not only is it horribly played (Raise pf for gods sake! Never minraise! Raise the turn!) it just ends up being another BBV post. And don't include results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Result are hidden (try to select the white text and the results will appear).
As already said it's first time that I post hands and use the hands converter: thanks anyway.

Wolfram

12-29-2006, 12:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I stopped reading after hand 1.

Not only is it horribly played (Raise pf for gods sake! Never minraise! Raise the turn!) it just ends up being another BBV post. And don't include results.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfair IMO. If you don't like the post, ignore it. You add nothing to the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like multiple hand posts so I gave some harsh but fair constructive criticism on the first one.

Wolfram

12-29-2006, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Result are hidden (try to select the white text and the results will appear).
As already said it's first time that I post hands and use the hands converter: thanks anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but everybody reads them anyways and it will skew the responses. If you really want the results to be known then wait until the hand has been discussed for a while and then post them. Results very rarely add any value to the discussion, but some people find them interesting.

Ps. sorry if I came off as a big dick.

AKQJ10

12-29-2006, 12:47 PM

I'm well aware that minraising is frowned upon by consensus, but I'm less clear on why it's a theoretical mistake. It seems to me that at times, depending on the opponent and what you're trying to accomplish, it has its uses.

For example, in hand #1 given BB's cards, a thinking BB is going to suspect he's in trouble on the flop with top pair-weak kicker if you raise the pot. With middle set on a drawish board, I agree that the hand calls for a bigger raise, but in other circumstances I think you'd be chasing out a lot of value by making it hard for marginal hands to call you.

In my view this falls under the category of decisions mentioned in NLHE:TAP where some purposes require a smaller bet (raise) size than others. Of course you can't just raise a little when you want a call and raise a lot when you want a fold. But you can usually size your raises accordingly and occasionally change the size to hide your motives.

On some hands, as in hand #1, I agree that bigger raises are clearly called for. I just have yet to be convinced that minraising is always wrong, as some have stated on this thread. Convince me.

SCBielski

12-29-2006, 01:08 PM

I feel the need to post....good god, you really need to be check/calling less. Sure, you'll get paid off when you hit a monster and your opponent has a big hand too, but other than that you simply won't get paid off at all. Also, generally when you want to know if you're playing well, you don't want to post hands where you got pretty lucky and ran well. I'd read a lot more posts from this forum because you have a lot of leaks in your game; some of the leaks are as simple as preflop play and others are much more general than that. Read more 2+2, please...holla?

Wolfram

12-29-2006, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On some hands, as in hand #1, I agree that bigger raises are clearly called for. I just have yet to be convinced that minraising is always wrong, as some have stated on this thread. Convince me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I agree with you. I used to never minraise, but have lately been experimenting with them. Especially in live games where reads are much deeper.

But min-raises are such a huge leak for beginners that I think its fine to be dogmatic at first and just drill it into their heads that min-raises are bad.

I think we should start a new thread where we discuss when we can use minraises for maximum value. One example is when I'm HU in position vs a pfr-tag and I flop an open ended straight or flushdraw. Then I sometimes try a minraise because it can:

a) Take it down if he missed.
b) Buy a free card on the turn (ala Limit)
c) Confuse the hell out of him if he knows how I usually play.

ettorek

12-29-2006, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but everybody reads them anyways and it will skew the responses. If you really want the results to be known then wait until the hand has been discussed for a while and then post them. Results very rarely add any value to the discussion, but some people find them interesting.

Ps. sorry if I came off as a big dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem, I'm here to learn. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

ettorek

12-29-2006, 05:09 PM

All of you are right when you say that minraising isn't so +EV when used too many times: so I confirm that it's a real leak that I've.
But give one more look at the hand #1.

Preflop I've got a JcJd this means that when in CO I've seen one player call I'm ahead vs a random hand:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 77.4695 % 77.15% 00.32% { JcJd }
Hand 2: 22.5305 % 22.21% 00.32% { random }

When I see the BB call the situation is quite similar.
If my opponents are medium skilled players I must assume that they haven't a PP or AK/AQ or they have raised.

Flop
I've linked my hand but there is a flush draw on the board.
BB open 1/2 pot so I must consider that a probe bet just to see where he is.
I may suppose he has a Qx:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 95.7316 % 95.73% 00.00% { JcJd }
Hand 2: 04.2684 % 04.27% 00.00% { QTs-Q2s, QTo-Q2o }

or he's drawing:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 71.9871 % 71.99% 00.00% { JcJd }
Hand 2: 28.0129 % 28.01% 00.00% { 2 spades)

I'm ahead but I minraise to put some more money in the pot (Here I see a bad play on my side): he call.

Turn
A blank: he raise 2/3 of the pot. He raise so he fear the flush draw: the Qx option is hot.
Let's call and, more important, let's him believe that is ahead.

River
Qc: I've linked a full house.
What may he have? A trips or, less probably, an higher full house.
He push and it's here that I have to decide what to do.
I have got a good hand but I can still loose if he has QJ,Q5,Q2 (I don't consider QQ or QJ) .

As you can see there is a logic behind the way I've played this hand.
Push allin before doesn't gurantee that he'd call me: on the other side, now that the pot is full of money, I must take a chance in a situation where I haven't the nuts.
So I've "Take it to the limit"...
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Wolfram

12-31-2006, 01:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Preflop I've got a JcJd this means that when in CO I've seen one player call I'm ahead vs a random hand:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 77.4695 % 77.15% 00.32% { JcJd }
Hand 2: 22.5305 % 22.21% 00.32% { random }

When I see the BB call the situation is quite similar.
If my opponents are medium skilled players I must assume that they haven't a PP or AK/AQ or they have raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have JJ in Co with 1 limper. That's a monster in 6max. You have to raise. Why? For value. Your hand is almost certainly the best one and you want to get paid for it. You also have a limper in front so he has shown some interest in playing. He might call a raise (which we want). Second reason to raise is to give yourself some protection by hopefully getting the hand heads up.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop
I've linked my hand but there is a flush draw on the board.
BB open 1/2 pot so I must consider that a probe bet just to see where he is.
I may suppose he has a Qx:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 95.7316 % 95.73% 00.00% { JcJd }
Hand 2: 04.2684 % 04.27% 00.00% { QTs-Q2s, QTo-Q2o }

or he's drawing:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 71.9871 % 71.99% 00.00% { JcJd }
Hand 2: 28.0129 % 28.01% 00.00% { 2 spades)

I'm ahead but I minraise to put some more money in the pot (Here I see a bad play on my side): he call.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't just "link", you hit a set which is a monster hand. Now you first mistake bites you in the ass. You didn't build a pot preflop. He bets out half-pot which can mean a feeler, but sometimes it means a monster. In any case you want to build a pot and try to get all the money in there if possible. If he has a weak hand then he'll fold anyways. Just raise a decent amount to get more value. Also, he could be betting his flushdraw (many do) and then you're giving him a perfect price to call with his draw by minraising.

[ QUOTE ]

Turn
A blank: he raise 2/3 of the pot. He raise so he fear the flush draw: the Qx option is hot.
Let's call and, more important, let's him believe that is ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
He bets 2/3rds, but the pot is so tiny that it can mean anything. Basically he called a raise and then suddenly bets out which either means he's bluffing, is trying to control the size of the bet or really likes his hand. You have to raise now! How are you going to win any big pots if you just check/call all the way?

Don't let him beleive he's ahead, just raise. If he really likes his hand he won't get away from it. Weak players call to much, that's their biggest weakness. Exploit it by value betting your strong hands.

The river decision is easy. You're never folding your hand. The fact that he hit a runner runner full house is immaterial, because your mistakes were not betting enough to get value out of your hand.

When you're playing NL you wait and wait for that one hand to pay you off big. The biggest mistake you can make is not betting enough to get proper value out of those monsters.

optimus_prime

12-31-2006, 02:35 AM

1: PF: Hero makes it 1.25 to go
Flop: Hero raises it to $4

2: Flop: Hero raises to 6

3: PF: Hero folds

4: Hand 4 And this sounds dumb as I type it, bet more on the flop so it hurts less putting the rest of your chips in haha.

5: Thats how i roll

HAPPY NEW YEAR

AKQJ10

12-31-2006, 03:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest mistake you can make is not betting enough to get proper value out of those monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with this and endorse it in theory.

And yet, it soooooo frustrating to flop set after set where everyone folds to your flop bet. And the tendency is to think, "If only I slowplayed more, I could generate some action on these sets."

I don't think that's the case, but daaaaayum.... I seem to be going through a phase where everyone else's sets come when I flop top and bottom pair (also some backdoor draws), but my sets come when noone gets anything.

Must... not... slowplay... sets...

AKQJ10

12-31-2006, 03:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
4: Hand 4 And this sounds dumb as I type it, bet more on the flop so it hurts less putting the rest of your chips in haha.

[/ QUOTE ]

Staking your stack on such a big combo draw shouldn't hurt anyway. Yeah, yeah, I know that it sucks when a few don't come in and you're down several buyins, but it really should be second nature unless you're pretty sure your opponent there has a set.

ettorek

01-01-2007, 01:35 PM

Thanks Wolfram, now is more clear what you meant: so now I understand why it's a priority to build the pot in advance.
As AKQJ10 said, sometime is the fear to not have an opponent when you hit a monster that make you do such a move.
I think I'm starting to understand a concept that is fundamental in this game: "ear can be your worst friend and, for this reason, it's better don't give a chance to Variance", I'm right?
Happy new year!!! /images/graemlins/wink.gif