Sizing the C-bet?

[CobraGoat]

point me in the direction of a good old thread on the subject?

im just feeling really lost with it in cash games lately. I feel very comfortable with my Cbet sizes in stt and mtts but cash games....sigh.

For instance here is the frame work:

6max full table.

UTG limps. Im on button and raise 4+1 BBs with ??

BB and limper both call. so there is now 15.5 BBs in pot on a ??? flop and it is checked to me.

if im not referred a good thread, can we go over various scenarios for cbet sizing?

is it always the same percent? or like DS says in TAP should i be making smaller cbets on a board like AA9 v. bigger cbets on coordinated boards (or was it rag boards?).

i really dont like this part of my game right now.

[KLJ]

things to consider:
1. how lightly you want/expect to be called
2. how likely you will be called by a draw with good/decent equity (or percieved equity) against yours. read: draws
3. how often you want/need to fire a 2nd barrel depends too

[CobraGoat]

KLJ,

i think #1 is the most relevant to my question.

i think if i am c betting id rather not be called at all. However if i expect i am going to get called i am probably not going to cbet unless i think i know the type of hand my opp is on and can make a continued play later.

but do you always cbet the same size of the pot? probably not as that would be too predictable.

when i hit the flop whether that be a draw or a made hand or monster i have a pretty good feel for what size bet to make; but with a cbet, i have whiffed and am continuing to represent that I am still as strong as i was when i raised PF.

one striking difference is that with a made hand the hand itself and its variations of how it has hit the flop, plays some role in how much to bet (obviously player reads etc play a big part too) but with a cbet there is no variation, you missed.

so maybe i have answered part of my question. with the cbet it is much more situationally dependent then various made hands. but i am still left wondering what a typical cbet is in a cash game. for instance in a MTT your typical Cbet (ala harrington) is somewhere in the vicinity of half the pot. but my experience with cash games has been that half pot often gets floated or called with crap (but crap that beats me) more so then 3/4 to full pot cbets. but with the larger cbet comes larger risk.

help a brother out.

[Triggerle]

I generally make the c-bet size the same size as a bet when I've hit because I don't want to give my opponent a hint that I have missed. If I have reads on an opponent, there are of course situations where I make larger bets when I've hit or even check it but generally they are the same size.

If I hit top pair for example on a 2-flush board I tend to make a larger bet to discourage a flush draw from drawing out on me (or he incorrectly chases anyway which is even better). So if I missed on a 2-flush board and want to c-bet then I size my c-bet a little bigger just as I would with TP.

Something else:

I recently evaluated my bet sizes and found I made c-bets generally too large (often pot sized) so I have since cut down the size a bit to 2/3 to 3/4 and found that they work equally well. Now since I want my value bets to be the same as my c-bets I am of course missing some value on the flops that I have hit. I have found, however, that I can frequently get that value back on the turn or river because in the micro-limits if someone calls my flop bet he will often not be able to let go of his hand on the turn and river.

[jively]

If I hit the flop and bet, I want people to make a mistake by calling. So on a dry board, I usually bet 50-60% of the pot. On a draw-heavy board, I bet 70-110% of the pot.

I also sometimes bet with my flush draws and OESDs, as well as combo draws. I usually make these 50-60% of the pot as well.

I don't want people to know exactly what I am doing. However, I don't think that people are extremely observant. I think with my betting when I hit, betting draws, and c-betting, I confuse people enough. They might notice that I am aggressive, but that's it.

So, I like to make by c-bets also 50-60% of the pot. If it works, it works. If someone calls, I've lost a smaller amount, and kept the pot smaller in case I hit 1 pair on the turn.

-Tom

P.S. I'm no expert, and I think I am running good, so take this with a grain of salt.

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
If I hit top pair for example on a 2-flush board I tend to make a larger bet to discourage a flush draw from drawing out on me (or he incorrectly chases anyway which is even better). So if I missed on a 2-flush board and want to c-bet then I size my c-bet a little bigger just as I would with TP.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've thought about this, but I'm not sure the average 50NL bad player online really thinks about the size of the flop bet. Are there typical players who will call a 1/2-pot size bet on the flop with a flush draw, but fold to a full-put sized bet with the same flush draw? The typical bad player will call both, and might even call an all-in over-bet.

-Tom

[CobraGoat]

Jive and trigger,

these were both good responses and i appreciate the info. I agree that my cbets should look a lot like my vbets.

like i said earlier though, 1/2 pot cbets in cash games do not get the same respect as they do in tourneys. this has thrown me off. but i suppose that is made up in that half pot vbets (when i make them, which is rarely) get floated a lot more too. so maybe its a wash.

[Triggerle]

[ QUOTE ]
I've thought about this, but I'm not sure the average 50NL bad player online really thinks about the size of the flop bet. Are there typical players who will call a 1/2-pot size bet on the flop with a flush draw, but fold to a full-put sized bet with the same flush draw? The typical bad player will call both, and might even call an all-in over-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]While there are a lot of players who indeed will not figure this out there are also a lot of players who do have a rudimentary understanding of pot odds in these simple flush-draw cases.

Also, picking up the pot when I have missed is only one half of the reason for a c-bet. The other half is setting up big plays when you hit a flop. To successfully play against a flush chaser when you have hit you need to lay the odds to him to make it incorrect to do so. So if the bet size we need to make in the case we hit is clear then the question is if we can get away with making smaller bets in the cases where we have missed. I think in addition to the people I already mentioned there will be another group of players who, while they don't understand pot odds, will notice your betting patterns and will eventually adjust.

If you have a read that your opponents belong to neither group and that you can get away with betting lower when you have missed then by all means go with that.

Edit: Cobra, it could be that your value bets are also too small. On the flop I rarely vbet for 1/2 unless I beg for a raise by a maniac.

[bozzer]

I try to size my c-bets to represent my most likely holding given board.

So as Triggle said, I usually bet two tone flops the same way I would if I held TPGK, that is around pot.

(As a side note, I am starting to re-think this bet size, which offers marginal pot odds to an 8 outer. Really all I need to do is bet so that they have incorrect odds to see turn, when I can double-barrel a blank.)

If the flop comes AA5r and I have a K, I will bet a smaller amount, like half pot, representing the A. This actually works! And I'm risking less money.

Usually my c-bet size is centred around 2/3-3/4 pot (just depending on what number looks 'right'), what I would bet with TP on a dry board.

[BukNaked36]

I'm not a tourney guy, but standard value line is:

flop - 3/4 to full pot
turn - 2/3 to 3/4 pot
river - 1/2 to 2/3 pot

Whether I hit the flop or not, my cbet is still 3/4 to full pot.

2/3 is still a reasonable cbet, but getting down around 1/2 pot is just too weak and is called way too much.

If you should cbet into two villians is based on your read of the villians.

[Quester]

[ QUOTE ]
2/3 is still a reasonable cbet, but getting down around 1/2 pot is just too weak and is called way too much.

If you should cbet into two villians is based on your read of the villians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind that larger c-bets have to work more often for them to be profitable. While a larger bet does discourage light calls, you will certainly encounter many individuals at these limits who will call your c-bet lightly regardless of bet size if they hit. Thus, it is often a good idea to size your c-bets smaller so they don't have to work as often.

I typically c-bet between 1/2 - 3/4 pot, with around 2/3 pot being most common. Obviously I don't think a 1/2 pot c-bet is necessarily weak, but opponent dependent just like everything else. If I'm against someone who will fold when they don't hit, I'm betting 1/2 pot more often than not because I won't lose as much when called, and still when the same amount when they fold.

[kurto]

I think that its a mistake to assume that opponents won't notice variations in your bet sizes. One of the most obvious things that people notice in variations about their opponents are variations in bet sizing.

The people I'M afraid of are the ones whos bets look exactly the same.

I'm amazed at how many people can be read by their bet sizing.

Make your vbets and cbets look the same.

For some players you can underbet to encourage a bluff...

[Fore59]

Here's a good thread on C-Betting

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...&PHPSESSID= (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=ssplnlpoker&Number=746634 9&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=)