I need a new line for medicore draws OOP

[Sir Winalot]

This is what I've been thinking lately. I'm OOP and flop an OESD or a flush draw. I make a 3/4-full pot bet. Everything is fine if it's folded or I hit turn. But usually I miss turn, and this is where it gets grumpy. I'm OOP and pretty much forced to check, and I can't really call a bet with my draw because it's hard as hell to get paid OOP.

Let's take an artificial example:

100bb stacks, 50NL and 6-handed.

I'm SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Preflop:
UTG limps, 3 folds, Button limps, Hero completes and BB checks

Flop: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($2)
I lead for $1.5, 2 folds, Button calls

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.5, Hero folds

I can't really bet the turn IMO and c/f'ing hurts. Maybe flop is the main problem here. Meh, this is what I've been strugling with.

Any suggestions for a new postflop line? If you have a real hand that could go as an example, feel free to post it here.

[Unknown Soldier]

check this flop, the value of a semi-bluff goes way down wth 4 people in the pot, the chances of them folding are very slim. I'm checking the turn for the same reason.

[homeslice]

why not just check the flop?

[avfletch]

I don't see much value in betting out into a four way pot. Most of the time I play my draws aggro heads up and passively multiway.

You don't have to play every draw you flop. If you can't bet out (and I think it's spewing in a situation like this) and then you get priced out by someone when you're not sure if you can get pair properly then let it go.

[Sir Winalot]

Thanks for the input guys. I just discovered that might've been a bad example. Let's take a new one:

100bb stacks, 50NL and 6-handed.

I'm MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Preflop:
Folds, Hero raises to 2, folds, Button calls, folds

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4.75)
Hero bets $4, Button calls

Turn: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($12.75)
Hero checks, Button bets $9, Hero folds

Ok, I think this one will better put forward my problem. Any ideas?

[avfletch]

This second hand looks completely standard to me. You could hold any two cards and still cbet this. The fact that you have a draw to fall back on the times he called just makes it more +EV than if you'd somehow got there with 23o.

That said I'm beginning to wonder about this line since I seem to get floated a ridiculous amount at $50NL lately.

[BukNaked36]

Agree with other comments - too many villians to lead this flop.

I generally go with:

OOP - play draws passively
In position - play draws aggressively

It at least provides a guideline for me to follow and I've been relatively happy with the results. I don't know if it's the most +EV way to play, but IMO it's the easiest way to play your draws.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
That said I'm beginning to wonder about this line since I seem to get floated a ridiculous amount at $50NL lately.

[/ QUOTE ]
Join the club. That's why I'm asking this.

[avfletch]

How do you play it if the turn is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you play it if the turn is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
$9-13 all day.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you play it if the turn is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
$9-13 all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately (please note we're only talking about 5k hands so consider this a sample size disclaimer) I find doing that folds them out way too often which makes me think that our betting/checking the turn is the wrong way around.

Thoughts?

[BukNaked36]

One other comment in regards to a line. I remember some of the SSNL guys used to C/R the flop with a draw as a standard line. If called, this buys you a free turn card a majority of the time if you want to take it.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
One other comment in regards to a line. I remember some of the SSNL guys used to C/R the flop with a draw as a standard line. If called, this buys you a free turn card a majority of the time if you want to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I'm not keen on a c/r in a spot like that because you always seem to end up with a bloated pot oop and it's even worse than having your lead called.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you play it if the turn is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
$9-13 all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately (please note we're only talking about 5k hands so consider this a sample size disclaimer) I find doing that folds them out way too often which makes me think that our betting/checking the turn is the wrong way around.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, but I also hate checking the flop as it gives the control of the hand to villain.

[ QUOTE ]
One other comment in regards to a line. I remember some of the SSNL guys used to C/R the flop with a draw as a standard line. If called, this buys you a free turn card a majority of the time if you want to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]
This sounds quite good actually, I think I'll give it a try.

[avfletch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you play it if the turn is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
$9-13 all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lately (please note we're only talking about 5k hands so consider this a sample size disclaimer) I find doing that folds them out way too often which makes me think that our betting/checking the turn is the wrong way around.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, but I also hate checking the flop as it gives the control of the hand to villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant I was considering checking the turns that I hit and second barreling some turns when I miss not that I wouldn't cbet the flop.

[matrix]

every once in a while c/r turn when you have a gutshot/mediocre draw.

I go for every time I have red cards which is 25% of the time.

if they are floating they fold to the turn raise and will be less inclined to float in the future if you are going to c/r them sometimes.

also if they snap call and the turn bricks I'm more inclined to lead the turn - quick calls on the flop frequently turn out to be drawing hands. if you've flopped a monster usually you think a little before acting to decide whether to raise or not - a snap call is often .oO(oooh a flush draw - I call)

[AJGibson]

Why do you need a new line, medicore draws OOP are nasty hands to play, folding is usually fine.

Think more about the people that have position on you, if they fold too much then bet, obviously. If their likely to try and push you off the hand then trying blocking bet, so you set the price of your draw.

Unless you have good reason, avoid playing drawing hands pf when you are likely to be out of position after the flop.

[jively]

In both examples, your flop bets are large (3/4 to full pot). If you are going to bet, why not lead for half-pot?

What if you had top pair, top kicker with each of those flops? You want to bet and get paid by hands worse than yours. Neither of those flops had a flush draw, so you don't need to bet 3/4-full pot with them. With a half-pot bet, you may get action from worse hands - top pair lower kicker, gutshots, etc. For the larger bet, gutshots may fold more.

Also, if you bet less and get called, the pot is smaller, so you might be able to call a turn bet while still drawing. (This definitely depends of the villian - if a calling station you may get paid on your river bet when you hit; you are less than 20% to hit the OESD on the river.)

These ideas are from No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice; bet closer to the full pot on the flop with draw-heavy boards, and bet less with draw-lighter boards. If I am thinking about this wrong, definitely let me know.

-Tom

[jively]

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[ QUOTE ]
How do you play it if the turn is K/images/graemlins/spade.gif or 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
$9-13 all day.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who is going to call a $13 turn bet in a $12.75 pot? Turn bets should generally be smaller bets, as a pct of the pot than flop bets (No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice). We want to get action when we have a great hand. If we hit the nut straight on the turn, I would bet less, maybe $8.

-Tom

[Messiahkid]

[ QUOTE ]
One other comment in regards to a line. I remember some of the SSNL guys used to C/R the flop with a draw as a standard line. If called, this buys you a free turn card a majority of the time if you want to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I vary my play and do this sometimes as well.

[Bring_Me_Down]

1st hand: Dont bet flop to 4-way pot.

2nd hand: Pf and flop both standard

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
This is what I've been thinking lately. I'm OOP and flop an OESD or a flush draw. I make a 3/4-full pot bet. Everything is fine if it's folded or I hit turn. But usually I miss turn, and this is where it gets grumpy. I'm OOP and pretty much forced to check, and I can't really call a bet with my draw because it's hard as hell to get paid OOP.

Let's take an artificial example:

100bb stacks, 50NL and 6-handed.

I'm SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Preflop:
UTG limps, 3 folds, Button limps, Hero completes and BB checks

Flop: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($2)
I lead for $1.5, 2 folds, Button calls

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.5, Hero folds

I can't really bet the turn IMO and c/f'ing hurts. Maybe flop is the main problem here. Meh, this is what I've been strugling with.

Any suggestions for a new postflop line? If you have a real hand that could go as an example, feel free to post it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should not be folding this, IMO.
I would call and look to c/r a ton of rivers. (anything that htis your draw/spades)

[MadMike]

meh. I don't think mediocore draws OOP multiway are really worth betting out with unless it is as a block or if I raised PF (in which case it's just the standard cbet).

I bet draws multiway mostly to get a free card on a bricked turn, and it's hard to get a free card OOP against a competent opponent. Multiway, I don't think the fold equity is high enough to justify the semibluff without the free card possibility.

HU, like in your second example, is a no-brainer bet even if you hadn't raised PF.

I like the c/r line idea- I'll have to try that. The only downside is the building of the pot OOP and the possibility of getting 3bet. I'll experiment with passive/cautious players first.

[Bring_Me_Down]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is what I've been thinking lately. I'm OOP and flop an OESD or a flush draw. I make a 3/4-full pot bet. Everything is fine if it's folded or I hit turn. But usually I miss turn, and this is where it gets grumpy. I'm OOP and pretty much forced to check, and I can't really call a bet with my draw because it's hard as hell to get paid OOP.

Let's take an artificial example:

100bb stacks, 50NL and 6-handed.

I'm SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Preflop:
UTG limps, 3 folds, Button limps, Hero completes and BB checks

Flop: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($2)
I lead for $1.5, 2 folds, Button calls

Turn: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif ($5)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.5, Hero folds

I can't really bet the turn IMO and c/f'ing hurts. Maybe flop is the main problem here. Meh, this is what I've been strugling with.

Any suggestions for a new postflop line? If you have a real hand that could go as an example, feel free to post it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should not be folding this, IMO.
I would call and look to c/r a ton of rivers. (anything that htis your draw/spades)

[/ QUOTE ]

U're so tricky - u PRO /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the input guys. I just discovered that might've been a bad example. Let's take a new one:

100bb stacks, 50NL and 6-handed.

I'm MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Preflop:
Folds, Hero raises to 2, folds, Button calls, folds

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($4.75)
Hero bets $4, Button calls

Turn: 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($12.75)
Hero checks, Button bets $9, Hero folds

Ok, I think this one will better put forward my problem. Any ideas?

[/ QUOTE ]

OP: need reads.

Against some people I shove here, against some I fold. (the better they are the more I shove)

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
In both examples, your flop bets are large (3/4 to full pot). If you are going to bet, why not lead for half-pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I never bet less than 3/4-pot on the flop without a good reason.

[ QUOTE ]

What if you had top pair, top kicker with each of those flops? You want to bet and get paid by hands worse than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]
3/4 to full pot. That's how I get paid. A potsized bet needs to get called only half as often as a 1/2-pot bet.

[ QUOTE ]
These ideas are from No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice; bet closer to the full pot on the flop with draw-heavy boards, and bet less with draw-lighter boards. If I am thinking about this wrong, definitely let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly what I do (although I didn't know it came from NLHTAP /images/graemlins/smile.gif), I bet closer to full pot on drawy boards and closer to 3/4-pot on dry boards.

[ QUOTE ]
Who is going to call a $13 turn bet in a $12.75 pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
If it's heads up and I'm the one betting then it has to be... The villain. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
You should not be folding this, IMO.
I would call and look to c/r a ton of rivers. (anything that htis your draw/spades)

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you mean the clubs or are we using spades as a randomizer?

[Jigsaws]

Eh? What's with the weakness here? Double barrel both. You'd be surprised how often people peel the flop with a hand they'll release on the turn. And if they don't, you've got outs.

[jively]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In both examples, your flop bets are large (3/4 to full pot). If you are going to bet, why not lead for half-pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because I never bet less than 3/4-pot on the flop without a good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even your cbets? 1/2 pot works frequently as a cbet, and you risk less when they don't fold. Then if you bet 1/2 pot sometimes with top pair, and bet 1/2 time sometimes with draws, people will not know what you have.

-Tom