Rape - How much sympathy and how much culpability?

[BluffTHIS!]

In this thread in NVG (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=gossip&Number=8448402&pag e=0&fpart=1), started by Brandi Hawbaker (and you need to read the main Brandi thread to have the background), I am accused of being a huge dick, insensitive person, etc., for my posts in that thread. And I admit I could have posted better and not as aggressively. Also I brought up analogies to rape, as a purported sexual assault was related, which weren't entirely apt, and also gave my low opinion on strippers/hookers where I said:

"The bottom line is that strippers/whores view all men as suckers and try to get their money, and think that they deserve it because men treat women so badly. But when one of their marks turns the tables on them and cons them, they cry rape."


So the question I would like to discuss is this: how much culpability does a rapist have in various scenarios, and how much sympathy is due the victim in those same scenarios?

Scenarios:

1) Random woman is attacked at home by a rapist she doesn't know who breaks in, or is date raped by someone she has no reason to believe is likely to commit that act.

2) Woman dresses very provoactively and is drug into the bushes and attacked as she walks down an area she normally frequents.

3) Woman dresses provacatively and is in an area of town known to be a "bad area", or allows herself to become drunk in a college male dorm where she has no friends to watch her back and also doesn't know any of the males well, and is raped.

4) Woman in #3 now allows herself to be in those circumstances again, or is a friend of one who was so attacked in those circumstances, and thus knows of the danger.

5) A hooker or stripper propositions a male who then decides to take it for free and rapes her (otherwise she falls into one of the other categories above).


So in each scenario, how much culpability does the rapist have, and how much sympathy is due the victim from a decent person?


My ratings:

The rapist:

1-5: Possibly with the exception of a dorm resident who is too drunk to fully know what he is doing, the rapist is maximally culpable and should receieve the max punishment. Especially because even if the particular victim in question is seen to have put herself at risk unecessarily to some degree, that rapist is still a danger to other women in different circumstances.


The victim:

1 & 2: Deserving of maximum sympathy.

3: Deserving of maximum sympathy, but it must be acknowledged she did not act wisely in having some responsibility for putting herself uncessarily at risk.

4: Deserving of sympathy, but much less.

5: Undeserving of sympathy.



Yeah I know that's not "PC", but you all already knew I wasn't.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
The bottom line is that strippers/whores view all men as suckers and try to get their money, and think that they deserve it because men treat women so badly. But when one of their marks turns the tables on them and cons them, they cry rape.

[/ QUOTE ]Do you actually believe that in the customer - prostitute relation, the prostitute is the party who has the edge?

Do you also perhaps believe that the men who seek the services of prostitutes or strippers have been somehow tricked into it?

[ QUOTE ]
How much culpability does a rapist have in various scenarios, and how much sympathy is due the victim in those same scenarios?

Scenarios:
...
5) A hooker or stripper propositions a male who then decides to take it for free and rapes her.
...
How much culpability does the rapist have, and how much sympathy is due the victim from a decent person?
...
My ratings:
...
The victim
5: Undeserving of sympathy.
I know that's not "PC", but you all already knew I wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I don't know why a sensitive, intelligent, and religious person such as you, BluffTHIS!, would put up such a clearly phony post. I mean, it's pretty obvious that only a certified genuine scumbag would rate as "Undeserving of sympathy" a party who's the victim of fraud, besidew every little thing else, e.g. getting raped.

Who you covering up for ?

[BluffTHIS!]

Mickey,

My post is in no way phony, and is truly reflective of what I believe. However there is an unstated premise in each of our positions and which differ from each other. In my case it is that I don't believe there is a morally honest transaction that can be entered into by a prostitute, and she is just a criminal attempting to commit a criminal act. Thus she might herself fall victim to another criminal in the process, and therefore be undeserving of sympathy.

[chezlaw]

Its not so bad if they only cry rape after the cheque bounces.

chez

[BPA234]

Rape is an act of violence. Regardless of the circumstances, no rape victim deserves to be the victim of that violence. Wheether or not you feel sympathy for that victim is entirely up to you. You're entitled to feel however you want. Although I question if your feelings flow from experience or are just untested opinions.

For me, I easily find sympathy for any of the victims in your scenarios. In some ways, I find greatest sympathy for the ones you describe as least deserving. The sex trade is a brutal environment that is filled with people who have few to no options. They are, by and large, prior victims of abuse and lack the ability to change their circumstances.

Regardless of who the victim is, or how they became a victim, I would challenge you to not feel sympathy for any rape victim if you were with one immediately after the occurence of the crime. Not, several days, weeks or months later. But, right after, When they are still bleeding and crying uncontrollably and the precense of a male in the room pushes them into hysteria and they curl up in a ball and try to hide in plain sight.

I doubt you could stand emotionless in that room, when rape is no longer just a word. But, is in fact a broken, shattered human being who is in the deepest, darkest depths of despair.

I don't believe you could watch unfeeling as their brusies form, their eyes swell shut and they try and hold the pieces of their torn clothing together in some futile attempt at modesty or self-protection.

I do not think you could smell the mix of fear, blood, sweat, semen, sh.it and piss that is covering them like a thick, heavy shroud and not feel they are deserving of sympathy.

If you could stand in that room and maintain that the person in front of you was undeserving of sympathy, than I would have to reserve my greatest sympathy for you.

[BluffTHIS!]

BPA,

Do you feel better and self-righteously proud now that you've erected a strawman and torn him down?

[BPA234]

I apologize if my post offended you. I defintiely do not want my post to be perceived as self-righteous. My post is derived from a few personal experiences and I stand behind what I wrote.

[BluffTHIS!]

It didn't offend me at all. I merely meant that you wasted a post arguing mostly against something I didn't say. The only thing relevant was regarding the category of victim I rated undeserving of sympathy, and even then you weren't really addressing the scenario I described.

[BPA234]

I disagree. I think I responded to the part of your post that I believed was your central point. You appear to be seeking some kind of approval/validation for your scenario number five that states that certain rape victims are undeserving of sympathy.

I maintain that you would feel differently if you personally experienced the aftermath. But, I also understand that all of this is subjective and you are entitled to feel any way you want.

Regarding your question of culpability: The rapist is always 100% culpable for committing the act of violence that is rape.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Mickey,

My post is in no way phony, and is truly reflective of what I believe. However there is an unstated premise in each of our positions and which differ from each other. In my case it is that I don't believe there is a morally honest transaction that can be entered into by a prostitute, and she is just a criminal attempting to commit a criminal act. Thus she might herself fall victim to another criminal in the process, and therefore be undeserving of sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]
No sympathy because you don't approve of the victims moral conduct. Blah!

It's not a lack of pc that is the problem.

chez

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
Rape is an act of violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about date rape where the girl is into it but changes her mind the day after?

[BPA234]

If the sex was consensual at the time, I don't believe that you could later qualify the experience as rape.

Legally, I believe there are some instances where being under-age, intoxicated or under the influence of drugs can place the burden of responsibility on the other person involved.

[RayBornert]

the ethics of the stripper/hooker game are such that the customer is not duped into the exchange.

men may have a need for ejaculation and companionship but the burden to meet that demand may never by forcefully transferred to the hooker without her permission.

if the man begins a transaction with a hooker entirely within the common ethics of mutual exchange and then decides to suddenly play a different game without first informing the hooker that he intends to play a different game then that man is acting unethically toward her.

the OP seems to suggest that hookers are somehow obligated to "like" or "admire" or "want" their customers (i.e. provide more of the companionship product) much the same way that a wife or girlfriend might provide those products (for free). the OP is wrong unless the hooker warranted that those products would be offered up front - there are services that do exactly that but they are typically much more expensive than the average wife or girlfriend.

ray

[chezlaw]

what about?

6) man who rapes his wife

what if they're living in sin?

chez

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
and she is just a criminal attempting to commit a criminal act. Thus she might herself fall victim to another criminal in the process, and therefore be undeserving of sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite a few modern countries have legalized prostitution with various wrinkles.
Would the change your view since it would no longer be a matter of 'crooks deserve to get robbed' ?

luckyme

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
In my case it is that I don't believe there is a morally honest transaction that can be entered into by a prostitute, and she is just a criminal attempting to commit a criminal act. Thus she might herself fall victim to another criminal in the process, and therefore be undeserving of sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a moron. There are people out there who don't consider gambling to be a "morally honest transaction" either. It's illegal in a lot of places. You don't have any better justification for considering prostitution immoral, it's just your personal opinion. So if I ever play offline poker with you, I'll be sure to stab you in the eye and steal all your monies. After all, should you "fall victim to another criminal" in the process of this "morally dishonest transaction", why would anyone sympathize?

Or drugs, have you ever bought any illegal drugs? Do you know someone who has? If they were beaten badly by a group of thugs in the process of peacefully buying drugs, would they be undeserving of sympathy too?

In most places where prostitution is illegal, it is illegal because that society judges that prostitution causes undesirable flow-on effects - STD vectors, child prostitution, sex slavery etc. The only place where it is illegal because women who prostitute themselves are evil people who need to be punished is in stone-age cultures where they buy wives for a few goats and stone the woman if she gets raped. Lumping rapists and prostitutes together in the common group "criminals", as if they had anything in common with each other, reveals a moral idiocy so complete that I assume you must be religious. That's generally where it comes from.

[ChrisV]

btw, on the evidence of that thread, Brandi is both crazy and very stupid. Being stupid is not a crime, however. I would say that I have sympathy for her, but not empathy. A guy from the POG forum where I hang out a lot posted a story about how his gf died of a long term illness. I can feel empathy for that, because I can imagine myself in the same situation. But a lot of Brandi's actions in that story of hers are so bizarre that I can't possibly imagine putting myself in the same situation. So it sucks that all that [censored] happened to her, but the sympathy is on kind of an abstract level, since I can't connect to the situation on a personal level.

I don't think you can withhold sympathy on the grounds that she should have known what she was getting herself into, since all the evidence points to her barely being in touch with reality.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't believe there is a morally honest transaction that can be entered into by a prostitute, and she is just a criminal attempting to commit a criminal act. Thus she might herself fall victim to another criminal in the process, and therefore be undeserving of sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]Since you did not get it the first time, here it is again, with the cliff notes:

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why a sensitive, intelligent, and religious person such as you, BluffTHIS!, would put up such a clearly phony post. I mean, it's pretty obvious that only a certified genuine scumbag would rate as "Undeserving of sympathy" a party who's the victim of fraud, besides everything else, e.g. getting raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rape is an act of violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about date rape where the girl is into it but changes her mind the day after?

[/ QUOTE ]Don't you think there is some itty bitty tiny difference between "rape" and "phony allegation of rape" ?

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
In my case it is that I don't believe there is a morally honest transaction that can be entered into by a prostitute

[/ QUOTE ]Setting aside the very silly notion of morality, the concept of a female trading sex for compensation is a natural act that can also be seen in other species. This gives credence to the idea that such transactions are a survival/evolutionary mechanism.

The same can be said for rape, sexual coercion, and sexual violence.

[David Sklansky]

I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped. But she can be assualted. That's still a big crime. But not as big as rape. Actually the crime of rape is not like it once was. Back in the days when it was considered abhorrent that a woman was having sex with someone she wasn't marrried, engaged to or at least in love with. So if someone forced her to do that, it was a lot worse than if someone forced their hand down her throat. Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter. While the opposite was true 100 years ago.

However since some woman are still of the old fashioned variety, I agree that the crime should remain greater than the crime of assault, if only for their sake. On the other hand if the woman involved is clearly not in that category, such as the prostitute in this example, to not reduce it to the still serious crime of assult is ridiculous.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Say what now?

Rape is sex taken against the will of the victim. If a hooker says $200 for sex, then the guy says I'm not giving you the $200 but I'll still have the sex thanks, then that's rape. If a hotel owner says that you can have a room for the night for $100, but then you refuse to pay the money but head straight for the room, is that now not trespassing, for some bizarre reason?

Sklansky's comment and the comment by BluffThis that a raped hooker does not deserve sympathy both seem to have their origins in the idea that a woman who offers sex for money is a creature beneath contempt, who has forfeited all rights to privacy, dignity or respect. I'm not normally one for accusations of this kind, but this idea does give me kind of a misogyny vibe.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped. But she can be assualted. That's still a big crime. But not as big as rape. Actually the crime of rape is not like it once was. Back in the days when it was considered abhorrent that a woman was having sex with someone she wasn't marrried, engaged to or at least in love with. So if someone forced her to do that, it was a lot worse than if someone forced their hand down her throat. Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter. While the opposite was true 100 years ago.

However since some woman are still of the old fashioned variety, I agree that the crime should remain greater than the crime of assault, if only for their sake. On the other hand if the woman involved is clearly not in that category, such as the prostitute in this example, to not reduce it to the still serious crime of assult is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would that mean a professional boxer can't be assaulted or battered ?

luckyme

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not think that words means what you think it means.

[valenzuela]

Btw in case 5 u have to feel sry because the whore didnt receive her money not because she has raped.

[Skidoo]

Offering something for sale doesn't reduce the crime of it being stolen.

[David Sklansky]

"Rape is sex taken against the will of the victim."

I guess you are technically correct. But rape normally carries with it a connotation that is lacking in this case and therefore it would be unfair for someone to punished in a similar manner as he would if the connotation applies.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
Offering something for sale doesn't reduce the crime of it being stolen.

[/ QUOTE ]The events surrounding the "transaction" certainly changes the nature of the crime even if the end result, that the item was not paid for, is the same.

[David Sklansky]

"Would that mean a professional boxer can't be assaulted or battered ?

luckyme"

If the batterer is an eighty year old lady who realizes that the guy isn't going to be affected much by her blows you would have a good analogy to my point.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped.

[/ QUOTE ]A street cleaner is forced at gun point to clean up the gun owner's street. A philanthropist is forced at gun point to give a hundred thousand dollars to the gun owner. A boxer is forced at gun point to fight someone in the ring. A blood donor is forced at gun point to give blood. A singer is forced to at gun point to sing the gun owner's favorite songbook. A poker player is forced at gun point to keep playing poker. A sex worker is forced at gun point to perform sexual acts.

In every example above, the victims are forced to do something they already and often do but beyond what they have agreed to.

If you accept this, then the nature of what they are forced to do comes into the picture. (If someone forces me at gun point to breathe, then there is no crime -- except threatening with a gun.) So, in the case of the sex worker, we also have rape. In the case of the philanthropist, we also have robbery. In the case of the blood donor, we have bodily harm. And so on.

[ QUOTE ]
The crime of rape is not like it once was. Back in the days when it was considered abhorrent that a woman was having sex with someone she wasn't married, engaged to or at least in love with. So if someone forced her to do that, it was a lot worse than if someone forced their hand down her throat.

[/ QUOTE ]Nonsense, David. Precisely because society in the old days was more backward than it is today, a woman's perspective into this was NOT taken as much into account as it is today. Which is why it was very hard, if not impossible, for a wife to successfully accuse her husband for rape "in the old days". It was, in fact, the wife's "duty" to acquiesce to her husband's sexual commands, whenever and however he felt like it, "in the old days".

[ QUOTE ]
Since some woman are still of the old fashioned variety, I agree that the crime should remain greater than the crime of assault, if only for their sake.

[/ QUOTE ]But this would assume that the criminal knows the predilections of his victims! And even so, if we were to consider the whole spectrum of female "morality", from the ultra-liberal gal to the most conservative nun, there is a limit, which is the same with every woman : Her individual consent. (The fact that it is different amongst individual women is irrelevant. Do you see why?)

Let's clear this once and for all : A woman has equal and final say on if & when she has sex with another person. Anything that violates that principle, is to be punishable by law -- and condemned in society's moral codes. Even if the woman is having more sex than everybody else in town. Even if the woman asks for money to have sex.

Mickey Brausch


PS : You might wanna see this, if you can't see it otherwise, as, unilaterally and violently, altering the other person's frequency distribution. Think of the boxer who gets bruises or injuries "he did not bargain for".

[totallyfocused]

RAPE, bluff this is in no way something to be discussed lightly , ruining someones life is a joke to you i feel sorry for you and your family guy.

[madnak]

Suddenly I have a clearer perspective on the mindset of people who think hell is a good thing.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
Rape is sex taken against the will of the victim. If a hooker says $200 for sex, then the guy says I'm not giving you the $200 but I'll still have the sex thanks, then that's rape. If a hotel owner says that you can have a room for the night for $100, but then you refuse to pay the money but head straight for the room, is that now not trespassing, for some bizarre reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if they agree on the price, have sex, then the john stiffs her. Is is retroactive rape?

If he pays in advance, sexes, and then steals the money back after, is it rape?

This is actually a more important point than it seems at first, because many date rape involves the woman being "tricked" into having consensual sex and then "changing her mind" after the fact.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Prostitutes can be raped, and suffer the same psychological effects as anyone else. Even wives can be raped by their husbands, with the same effects.

[madnak]

If she consensually has sex with him with the expectation of being paid, that isn't rape. If she's not paid, it's breach of contract or "theft." It's inappropriate to consider such a thing rape - the consequences are not those of rape.

Rape is not consensual, and personally I believe the term should never be applied in situations where there is even a modicum of consent.

But just because a prostitute is a sex worker doesn't mean she's permanently consenting to every advance.

[hmkpoker]

Bluff-

I hate to admit it, but I actually agree with you on a lot of this. I think the hooker in situation 5 is deserving of some sympathy because she was frauded (and frankly, I take some sympathy on her just because she's a hooker), but yeah, being raped is going to be a lot less traumatizing to her.

[Skidoo]

On the other hand, it might be what pushes her over the edge entirely.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]


What if they agree on the price, have sex, then the john stiffs her. Is is retroactive rape?

[/ QUOTE ] No.

[ QUOTE ]
If he pays in advance, sexes, and then steals the money back after, is it rape?

[/ QUOTE ] No.

[ QUOTE ]
This is actually a more important point than it seems at first, because many date rape involves the woman being "tricked" into having consensual sex and then "changing her mind" after the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]You're too fixated on "date rape". This kind of rape almost always means artificially weakening the female's mental and/or physical faculties to the point of her seemingly conceding to sex, while she, in actual fact, doesn't have the ability to make a choice either way.

(There are many things to be said about a couple having drinks or doing drugs together and then having sex, of course. But those are nuances. The general principle should be easy to grasp.)

Mickey Brausch

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the hooker in situation 5 is deserving of some sympathy because she was frauded (and frankly, I take some sympathy on her just because she's a hooker), but yeah, being raped is going to be a lot less traumatizing to her.

[/ QUOTE ]I think you're on to something here. If a secretary is forced to work overtime at gun point, it should not be considered too traumatizing for her since she is already a secretary!

On the other hand, the law should come down very hard on anyone who forces at gun point a girl to work as secretary when she has no typing skills whatsoever!

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

...I hope you realize soon how utterly unfounded your sympathy for Bluffy's position is. I also hope you come back to your old libertarian self. At least, libertarians are usually staunch defenders of individual freedom, irrespective of the individual. Or so I heard.

Mickey Brausch

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
...I hope you realize soon how utterly unfounded your sympathy for Bluffy's position is. I also hope you come back to your old libertarian self. At least, libertarians are usually staunch defenders of individual freedom, irrespective of the individual. Or so I heard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woah there Cyrus, I just said that for that instance she was less deserving of sympathy than someone who was just raped her out of the blue. After all, I think it's going to be a lot less painful for her emotionally. This does not mean that the offenders shouldn't be punished! The offender s in every one of Bluff's hypotheticals, if proven guilty, should be brutally punished. No sympathy should be felt for someone who violates another's body.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, [rape] might be what pushes [the prostitute] over the edge entirely.

[/ QUOTE ]Incidentally, some (otherwise knowledgeable) people are making surprisingly inaccurate assessments of the situation.

There is variance in the level of trauma inflicted on the raped woman (i.e. when a nun is raped, the trauma could be rated on average 9/10; when a prostiture is raped, it could be rated on average 5/10). But some people, e.g. David Sklansky, assess the situation of 5/10 (a rather arbitrary measurement on my part, but not too inaccurate) to be nearer 0/10 than it actually is.

Mickey Brausch

[David Sklansky]

I totally stand by my statement. Some people however are misinterpreting it.

Forcing someone to do something against their will is a crime. Even if it is something they do everyday. So I am not agreeing with Bluff that the prostiute doesn't deserve sympathy.

I was speaking specifically about the crime called "rape". My point would have been clearer, perhaps if this was forty years ago when rape still sometimes carried the death penalty. The fact that it no longer does partially reflects my views. Which is that the crime of "rape" generally connotes a far higher degree of horror to the victim than the physical acts involved. That's why child molesting is such a bad crime. Going up to a 12 year old girl and squeezing her breast will, and should result in much greater punishment then if doing the same thing to a 37 year old woman.

The punishment for rape generally assumes that the woman is similarly psychologically affected. Nowadays that isn't usually true. Depending on who it is, she probably is affected less than she would be by a severe beating. But rape is a worse crime. And it should be because some woman are more horrified by it. But a prostitute isn't. Most probably would take $10,000 to not press charges. If so she was not victimized in the same way an average woman would be. Technically she was "raped". But she wasn't raped in the full sense of the word.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
The offenders in every one of Bluff's hypotheticals, if proven guilty, should be brutally punished. No sympathy should be felt for someone who violates another's body.

[/ QUOTE ]Do you believe that the punishment of the rapist should vary, in accordance to whether his victim is a nun or a prostitute, and if so, by how much?

Mickey Brausch

[hmkpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The offenders in every one of Bluff's hypotheticals, if proven guilty, should be brutally punished. No sympathy should be felt for someone who violates another's body.

[/ QUOTE ]Do you believe that the punishment of the rapist should vary, in accordance to whether his victim is a nun or a prostitute, and if so, by how much?

Mickey Brausch

[/ QUOTE ]

Abso-[censored]-lutely not. Same punishment either way. I also don't believe in hate crimes. Our social norms should be structured in a way that punishes evil actions, not evil thoughts. What's between your ears is yours.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
I was speaking specifically about the crime called "rape". My point would have been clearer, perhaps if this was forty years ago when rape still sometimes carried the death penalty. The fact that it no longer does partially reflects my views. Which is that the crime of "rape" generally connotes a far higher degree of horror to the victim than the physical acts involved.

[/ QUOTE ]Consider this, please:

If, forty years ago, the horror felt by a rape victim was generally 100, and the society's intolerance towards sexuality in general was 100, the respective figures today would be 85 and 50.

I might not get the measurement too accurately but the separate drift is all-important.

The point is, that while society has indeed progressed (or "progressed") a lot in terms of sexual mores in the last decades, or centuries, the horror of the rape victim remains extremely strong. Not as strong as it was in 1950 or 1750, but extremely strong nonetheless. And that is the all-important factor here.

[ QUOTE ]
Some women are more horrified by [rape]. But a prostitute isn't. Most would probably take $10,000 to not press charges. If so, she was not victimized in the same way an average woman would be. Technically she was "raped". But she wasn't raped in the full sense of the word.

[/ QUOTE ]See my nun versus prostitute examples in this thread for the reasons why your absolutist statements hereabove would be par-for-the-course for an average linemaker but are not Sklanskyanly insightful.

Mickey Brausch

[Mrs. Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped. But she can be assualted. That's still a big crime. But not as big as rape. Actually the crime of rape is not like it once was. Back in the days when it was considered abhorrent that a woman was having sex with someone she wasn't marrried, engaged to or at least in love with. So if someone forced her to do that, it was a lot worse than if someone forced their hand down her throat. Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to chime in here.

I was an Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner for ten emergency departments in the Minneapolis area for 3 years.
My job was to to the medical and forensic examinations on women, men, and kids that came to the hospital following a reported sexual assault.

I have to disagree that most women would choose being raped over being beaten. The rape, although very rarely results in serious injury, is so damaging psychologically. The violence of the sexual assault will bleed into any sexual/physical relationship she(or he) has. Its impossible to separate.

I did see my share of prostitutes as patients. I never had one ask for the police involvement. The women I saw just wanted to get pregnancy and STD prophylaxis. The women I saw seems resolved that it was a risk to what they were doing, part of the job, and their response was very different than that of the "I had to much to drink...I can't believe this happened" woman.

I would also like to add of my patients and my colleages, alcohol was a factor most of the time. I would say at least 90%.(Again, this is in my experince) Rarely did I see a stranger assault, most knew or were aquainted with their alleged assailant.
Ususally when alcohol was not the factor, it involved the elderly, the disabled or kids. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I did see my share of prostitutes as patients. I never had one ask for the police involvement. The women I saw just wanted to get pregnancy and STD prophylaxis. The women I saw seems resolved that it was a risk to what they were doing, part of the job, and their response was very different than that of the "I had to much to drink...I can't believe this happened" woman.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its hardly suprising that they don't want police involvment and wouldn't you expect them to show a harder face than normal? Whether or not they deserve sympathy they are probably right not to have high expectations.


chez

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I totally stand by my statement. Some people however are misinterpreting it.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Pigs can fly". now, when I say that, some people misinterpret it, they think I mean those fatty pre-saugage animals and that flying means a form of transportation. But I think society has moved beyond such mundane interpretations of those words and when I say them people should interpret them the way I want them to be one day.

Nobody misinterpreted you, cheeez.

If you're TOTALLY standing by what you said ..."She can't be raped" Were they struggling miserably with the 'can't be' or the 'raped' ?

luckyme

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
Most probably would take $10,000 to not press charges. If so she was not victimized in the same way an average woman would be. Technically she was "raped". But she wasn't raped in the full sense of the word.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obvious flaw in this approach. Weather or not a woman takes 10 grand not to press charges says nothing about the damage that rape has done, or how much they would prefer not to have been raped.

[Mrs. Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I did see my share of prostitutes as patients. I never had one ask for the police involvement. The women I saw just wanted to get pregnancy and STD prophylaxis. The women I saw seems resolved that it was a risk to what they were doing, part of the job, and their response was very different than that of the "I had to much to drink...I can't believe this happened" woman.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its hardly suprising that they don't want police involvment and wouldn't you expect them to show a harder face than normal? Whether or not they deserve sympathy they are probably right not to have high expectations.


chez

[/ QUOTE ]

What I saw was not a surprise for me as it is not a surprise for you. Surprisingly, when I started doing this I expected that every time I would be called I would be dealing with someone who was completely falling apart. This was rare. Most of the time when someone would come in they were ready to start dealing with it. They were n ot falling apart, this inclued the kids that I saw too. Most of my patients brought themselves in to be seen and were wanting to be there.

[ QUOTE ]
Whether or not they deserve sympathy they are probably right not to have high expectations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that its true, these women had very low expectations from law enforcement. The protitutes I had seen had been through "the drill" before and knew they could come to the ER and get treatment, prophyaxis...no police involvment unless they wanted(different story if it was a mandated report), resouces available. There was some expectation there for the hospitals and staff to take care of them...and that the Sexual Assault Nurses would respond within 30-60 minutes.

In a way these women deserve more sympathy than they are given. Sure what they are doing puts them at higher risk for being assaulted-vicimized, but what took them there in the first place?

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
3) Woman dresses provacatively and is in an area of town known to be a "bad area", or allows herself to become drunk in a college male dorm where she has no friends to watch her back and also doesn't know any of the males well, and is raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

3: Deserving of maximum sympathy, but it must be acknowledged she did not act wisely in having some responsibility for putting herself uncessarily at risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Dresses provocatively"? Come on now. Blame the victim much?

Seriously, maybe we should blame girls who work out and have really good bodies. They are putting themselves at risk by looking so good. If they were fat they might be less of a target.

A woman has a right to dress sexy, go to a club in a "bad" area, or hang out and drink in college without the expectation that any of these things might lead to her being raped. It is ridiculous to assume she has any responsibility - even the tiniest bit - for an act of violence against her.

This type of thinking is why the Taliban wants women covered up from head to toe in public. Evidently we sex-crazed males are simply helpless to stop ourselves if we see some skin.

[madnak]

That they came in "ready to deal" or saw it as "a risk of the job" is no indication they didn't experience severe trauma. In fact, studies indicate that a large proportion of rape victims internalize their trauma, acting outwardly "just fine," but that the actual symptoms may be worse for these people.

Just because she isn't sobbing doesn't mean it's no big deal.

[CallMeIshmael]

BT,

serious question

"4: Deserving of sympathy, but much less.

5: Undeserving of sympathy."


What do you think of my claim that the above seriously goes against Jesus' general message?

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
That they came in "ready to deal" or saw it as "a risk of the job" is no indication they didn't experience severe trauma. In fact, studies indicate that a large proportion of rape victims internalize their trauma, acting outwardly "just fine," but that the actual symptoms may be worse for these people.

Just because she isn't sobbing doesn't mean it's no big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are these studies that show all this great trauma? There has been a lot of false information pushed out about rape by the feminist movement.

[madnak]

Well, I haven't personally studied the subject. Is a reference like this (http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip//effectsofrape.html#pagebegin) biased? I guess it could be, but I've never heard that there was ever even a controversy surrounding the effects of rape.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rape is sex taken against the will of the victim. If a hooker says $200 for sex, then the guy says I'm not giving you the $200 but I'll still have the sex thanks, then that's rape. If a hotel owner says that you can have a room for the night for $100, but then you refuse to pay the money but head straight for the room, is that now not trespassing, for some bizarre reason?

[/ QUOTE ]

What if they agree on the price, have sex, then the john stiffs her. Is is retroactive rape?

If he pays in advance, sexes, and then steals the money back after, is it rape?

This is actually a more important point than it seems at first, because many date rape involves the woman being "tricked" into having consensual sex and then "changing her mind" after the fact.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither of your examples are rape. Rape is sex without consent. If the woman has consented, then it can't be rape, even if the consent was obtained under false pretences.

Suppose you are someone who regularly participates in human drug trials for money. I have friends who have done this in the past. One day you show up at the testing laboratory, but after you get there you decide that you don't want to participate that day, for whatever reason. Maybe you don't like the look of the side effects, or maybe you're feeling a bit queasy. The guys who run the testing don't care, though. They grab you and strap you down on a bed with restraints and forcibly administer you the drug. That, multiplied by 5, with added humiliation and psychological scarring, is rape of a prostitute. Just because consent was going to be given for a few hundred dollars doesn't mean that it's only worth a few hundred dollars when stolen.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
But rape is a worse crime. And it should be because some woman are more horrified by it. But a prostitute isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell would you know how a prostitute feels about these things? (Don't answer that).

Here again the implication that someone's consent is worth less if they usually give it more freely.

How about a married woman who has only had sex with her husband? Is rape less of a crime against her than against a nun?

How about a woman who regularly has one night stands on the weekend? Less of a crime?

How about a woman who has occasionally slept with someone she otherwise might not have for the purposes of career advancement or other manipulation? Less of a crime?

What about a high-class prostitute, who has an exclusive client list? Less of a crime?

You're turning people into second-class citizens. You can't predict how people will react to a violation based on past behaviour. Every adult's consent is worth the same, regardless of circumstances.

[PokerBob]

what if the hooker in #5 was on her very first "assigment" and had never "hooked" before? does she deserve sympathy then?


as far as the other examples, EVERY one deserves the same amount of sympathy. It's just that some of them also deserve a talking-to about how to be more responsible/careful.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
BT,

serious question

"4: Deserving of sympathy, but much less.

5: Undeserving of sympathy."


What do you think of my claim that the above seriously goes against Jesus' general message?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an excellent question that i would love to read the answer to.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
she is just a criminal attempting to commit a criminal act. Thus she might herself fall victim to another criminal in the process, and therefore be undeserving of sympathy.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, what you are saying is that once someone chooses to do something illegal, their humanity no longer has value. you're a pig.

[madnak]

Oh [censored]! And I jaywalked just the other day!

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
This kind of rape almost always means artificially weakening the female's mental and/or physical faculties to the point of her seemingly conceding to sex, while she, in actual fact, doesn't have the ability to make a choice either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

In any earlier thread you said all rape was violent.
Which is it? You realize men's lives are ruined over this.
By this I mean a man seduces a woman and the woman later regrets it and bingo, it is rape.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This kind of rape almost always means artificially weakening the female's mental and/or physical faculties to the point of her seemingly conceding to sex, while she, in actual fact, doesn't have the ability to make a choice either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

In any earlier thread you said all rape was violent.
Which is it? You realize men's lives are ruined over this.
By this I mean a man seduces a woman and the woman later regrets it and bingo, it is rape.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It isn't. Just because people are wrongly convicted of things doesn't mean they did them, and just because people are tried in the court of public opinion does not mean they are guilty. You are equivocating rape and alleged rape, and specifically using an example where it obviously is not rape, in an attempt to get us to agree that not all rape is bad, or something. What you are talking about is clearly not rape. Clearly. No disagreement possible.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stunned by this statement.

Separately - Bluffthis, how in the world can you call yourself a Christian?

[Yo_Respek]

"The bottom line is that strippers/whores view all men as suckers and try to get their money, and think that they deserve it because men treat women so badly. But when one of their marks turns the tables on them and cons them, they cry rape

Replace strippers and whores with winning poker players.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
BT,

serious question

"4: Deserving of sympathy, but much less.

5: Undeserving of sympathy."


What do you think of my claim that the above seriously goes against Jesus' general message?

[/ QUOTE ]



Ishmael,

A legitimate question. And here's my answer: God loves each and every one of us as His children, no matter how badly we fail in the moral realm or in being His children. And Jesus would feel sad (not sympathetic) over a woman in each of those last two situations you quote, and he would feel sympathy for the pain of the one in #4. But mainly, he would feel sad that #4 did not act wisely, and that #5 did not act morally. Thus His love and empathy for thim has more to do not with physical or even emotional sufferings on this earth, which are part and parcel of our human fallen condition, but with their failings (and all of our failings), to live as children of God who are called to a higher purpose and destiny of eteranl life.

Also I will address something else that is underlying here and which no one often is astute enough to see. And that is an apparent dichotomy between my cynicism of men in general in this earthly life, and the hopeful optimism required of a follower of Jesus. The experience of my own life and the things I have seen, as well as my readings of history and even the Bible, all lead me, despite our duty to work for a just Christian society as followers of Christ, to view the prospects of most men and women acting morally as Children of God, or for the establishment of a better world that treats all the marginalized with the dignity due them, as somewhat dismal. However my hope and optimism for the victory of Christ over evil and the Evil One in time, and for our eternal heritage, which unfortunately not all men will share, is nonetheless unbounded. In short I am cynical about men and the socity of men on earth, but am joyfully optimistic about Man and Kindgom of God in eternity. And as well, I am hopeful that any specific individual, despite their past actions in life, can let Jesus take the weight of their sins and be given an unmerited eternal reward.

[Yo_Respek]

Deleted for lack of content

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
And Jesus would feel sad (not sympathetic) over a woman in each of those last two situations you quote

[/ QUOTE ]

And you're sure of this?

Man, do I regret looking at this thread.

[BluffTHIS!]

Rduke,

Read the clarification of that later in the same sentence and further on. I shouldn't have expressed it like that.

[Speedlimits]

#3 for all.

[Speedlimits]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3) Woman dresses provacatively and is in an area of town known to be a "bad area", or allows herself to become drunk in a college male dorm where she has no friends to watch her back and also doesn't know any of the males well, and is raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

3: Deserving of maximum sympathy, but it must be acknowledged she did not act wisely in having some responsibility for putting herself uncessarily at risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Dresses provocatively"? Come on now. Blame the victim much?

Seriously, maybe we should blame girls who work out and have really good bodies. They are putting themselves at risk by looking so good. If they were fat they might be less of a target.

A woman has a right to dress sexy, go to a club in a "bad" area, or hang out and drink in college without the expectation that any of these things might lead to her being raped. It is ridiculous to assume she has any responsibility - even the tiniest bit - for an act of violence against her.

This type of thinking is why the Taliban wants women covered up from head to toe in public. Evidently we sex-crazed males are simply helpless to stop ourselves if we see some skin.

[/ QUOTE ]

A girl that is hot and by herself and getting drunk with a bunch of dudes should be cautious. #3 covers that.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3) Woman dresses provacatively and is in an area of town known to be a "bad area", or allows herself to become drunk in a college male dorm where she has no friends to watch her back and also doesn't know any of the males well, and is raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

3: Deserving of maximum sympathy, but it must be acknowledged she did not act wisely in having some responsibility for putting herself uncessarily at risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Dresses provocatively"? Come on now. Blame the victim much?

Seriously, maybe we should blame girls who work out and have really good bodies. They are putting themselves at risk by looking so good. If they were fat they might be less of a target.

A woman has a right to dress sexy, go to a club in a "bad" area, or hang out and drink in college without the expectation that any of these things might lead to her being raped. It is ridiculous to assume she has any responsibility - even the tiniest bit - for an act of violence against her.

This type of thinking is why the Taliban wants women covered up from head to toe in public. Evidently we sex-crazed males are simply helpless to stop ourselves if we see some skin.

[/ QUOTE ]

A girl that is hot and by herself and getting drunk with a bunch of dudes should be cautious. #3 covers that.

[/ QUOTE ]

And woe be to the ugly, fat girl who finds herself in a room full of BBW-fetishists!

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
The experience of my own life and the things I have seen, as well as my readings of history and even the Bible, all lead me, despite our duty to work for a just Christian society as followers of Christ, to view the prospects of most men and women acting morally as Children of God, or for the establishment of a better world that treats all the marginalized with the dignity due them, as somewhat dismal. However my hope and optimism for the victory of Christ over evil and the Evil One in time, and for our eternal heritage, which unfortunately not all men will share, is nonetheless unbounded.

[/ QUOTE ]

So like many theists you are pessimistic about life but optimistic about death. What does this have to do with prostitutes getting raped and why I shouldn't have sympathy for them?

[vhawk01]

Has a thread ever deserved that image of the scary guy with the "You gonna get raped" text more than this one?

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
What you are talking about is clearly not rape. Clearly. No disagreement possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, but a lot of feminists would disagree with us.

And btw, when these crazy feminists try to make semi coercive consensual date "rape" equivalent to violent rape, what happens is that the whole horrible concept of rape is diluted down to the point where people actually go around and say that most women would choose to be raped over assaulted.

[PartyGirlUK]

Bluff_This,

How much sympathy should we give a bitter and twisted, jealous man who spews hate, posts terrible logic to criticise his foes then wont admit his wrong, hears a woman say she was sexually abused the says she had it coming etc. - if one of his victims decide the beat him up? How culpable is the poster?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What you are talking about is clearly not rape. Clearly. No disagreement possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, but a lot of feminists would disagree with us.

And btw, when these crazy feminists try to make semi coercive consensual date "rape" equivalent to violent rape, what happens is that the whole horrible concept of rape is diluted down to the point where people actually go around and say that most women would choose to be raped over assaulted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. There are very rarely obvious, natural lines that we can draw to seperate things, usually its a continuum with plenty of gray area, but this particular issue is one where there IS a natural, obvious line, and erasing it for some ulterior motive is really a disservice.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
Bluff_This,

How much sympathy should we give a bitter and twisted, jealous man who spews hate, posts terrible logic to criticise his foes then wont admit his wrong, hears a woman say she was sexually abused the says she had it coming etc. - if one of his victims decide the beat him up? How culpable is the poster?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll speak for him. Absolutely no sympathy whatsover. At least, thats if he is consistent. Sinners deserve to be punished.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
In any earlier thread you said all rape was violent.

[/ QUOTE ] The act itself is violent. Physical violence per se does not need to be involved for it to be a violent act. A person can force you to do things you don't wanna do, e.g. suck his penis, through intimidation, blackmail, drugging, etc.

I cannot understand how you cannot understand this.

[ QUOTE ]
You realize men's lives are ruined over this.

[/ QUOTE ]They are, on account of false accusations of rape. I agree. And I will also agree that the pendulum might have swung too much the "other way", in modern society's effort to undo patriarchy and male prerogative. So we must be extra careful when rape is claimed. So what? I understand all this.

[ QUOTE ]
A man seduces a woman and the woman later regrets it and bingo, it is rape.

[/ QUOTE ] We agree on this. But, again, false allegations of rape should not encourage us to go back to the old ways of "she asked for it".

When all is said and done, I'd speculate that false allegations of rape constitute a miniscule percentage among allegations of rape in general.

Mickey Brausch

[soon2bepro]

What you say is partially true, but then explain how a vast majority of raped women have such a hard time dealing with it through the rest of their lives, whereas beaten up women don't? (I agree that this doesn't apply to hookers, but it probably didn't 100 years ago either)

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And Jesus would feel sad (not sympathetic) over a woman in each of those last two situations you quote

[/ QUOTE ]

[Rduke55:]

And you're sure of this?

Man, do I regret looking at this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Deleted for lack of content

Edited by Rduke55 (12/16/06 10:50 PM)

[/ QUOTE ]May I suggest that a moderator who's actively involved in a discussion, and moreover strongly taking sides in it, should refrain from exercising his banning, deleting or censoring authority from that thread?

Or, at least, to exercise more restraint than usual.

Just a thought.

[BluffTHIS!]

Rduke,

Don't pay attention to Mickey on your moderation. He probably feels he got "raped" when his Cyrus account got banned and is thus oversensitive to any aggressive moderation or mod comments due to that traumatic experience.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that this doesn't apply to hookers

[/ QUOTE ]

This does apply to "hookers." Jesus, where are you guys getting this from? I guess popular culture says that prostitutes aren't human beings?

[madnak]

It was Yo_Respeck. You really can't trust RDuke's judgment that he made a trollish post?

[BluffTHIS!]

madnak,

If you own a pawnshop and sell hot merchandise, and someone comes in and "steals" some of same, did you get stolen from? You are making the assumption that a prostitute should legally be able to sell sex and some of us aren't. Therefore we will reach differing conclusing from different premises when the remaining facts are otherwise the same.

Furthermore, David's argument is that even if she should be able to sell sex, having that sex "stolen" from her shouldn't be as psychologically traumatizing as for someone who doesn't sell sex, and particularly for someone who believes she shouldn't sell sex.

[madnak]

False allegations of rape are a serious issue. And I belive that an extremely large proportion of accusation are, in fact, spurious. Something like 20%-30%. If not more.

Rape is also a serious issue. Much more serious than assault. Sometimes rape is over-rated, as when people say "death is better" or some such thing. Occasionally a woman might prefer rape to assault - either due to psychological "variance" or due to a poor understanding of the consequences. Rape is deeply misunderstood by many, many people. There are those who claim it's no big deal, and they're wrong. Then there are those who claim it applies whenver a woman feels taken advantage of, and not only are they wrong, they perpetuate the myth that it's "no big deal" by trying to apply it to situations where it isn't a big deal.

But rape is a big deal. And this is true when a prostitute is raped, and it's true when a husband rapes his wife. The difference between an uncle raping his 16-year-old neice and a thug raping an experienced prostitute is signficant, but nowhere near as much as most of you would like to think.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
If you own a pawnshop and sell hot merchandise, and someone comes in and "steals" some of same, did you get stolen from? You are making the assumption that a prostistute should legally be able to sell sex and some of us aren't. Therefore we will reach differing conclusing from different premises when the remaining facts are otherwise the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is completely irrelevant and it's not a red herring I intend to pursue. Rape is not "stealing the merchandise." Having consensual sex and then refusing to pay is "stealing the merchandise." Rape is more like locking me in the back room and burning down the pawnshop.

Furthermore, and more relevantly, prostitutes tend to exhibit symptoms of severe trauma after rape. Therefore, the prediction you've made is refuted by empirical evidence, and there are empirical indicators that the effects of a rape are far more severe than the effects of theft.

I accuse you of making the raw assumption that prostitutes "probably don't mind as much" without even bothering to examine that assumption. And it's a bit sickening, frankly. I won't get into the subject of prostitutes in America, because it's a large tangent, but I will say that regardless of whether you think they should eventually be subjected to an infinity of unimaginable tortures in the afterlife, while they're still alive their criminal status doesn't deny them the protection of the law, particularly from violent acts taken against them.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
prostitutes tend to exhibit symptoms of severe trauma after rape. Therefore, the prediction you've made is refuted by empirical evidence, and there are empirical indicators that the effects of a rape are far more severe than the effects of theft.

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL at your "empirical" evidence. A large part of the psychological trauma of rape for an average woman has to be a random man forcing her to sexually submit, along with the additional fear of contracting disease or getting pregnant from same. Whereas a prostitute each and every day she plies her "trade" sexually submits to multiple random men and *should* fear at least the long term possibility of contracting a disease from same. Get a grip and get off your PC horse.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
May I suggest that a moderator who's actively involved in a discussion, and moreover strongly taking sides in it, should refrain from exercising his banning, deleting or censoring authority from that thread?

Or, at least, to exercise more restraint than usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

C'mon, did you see the post?

[madnak]

You really aren't in any position to speak of the source of trauma in cases of rape. And you're clearly ignorant of the subject.

By the way, trauma is typically more severe when the man isn't random, fear of disease and pregnancy isn't a major issue, prostitutes have extremely low rates of STD and pregnancy, and there is a high incidence of PTSD among prostitutes who've been raped, just like with other rape victims.

PC horse? It's just the facts, Jack. And now I know you haven't looked at anything that terms describes. Or even made an attempt.

[BluffTHIS!]

madnak,

Although I don't doubt you could come up with some studies with a conclusion that working prostitutes experience trauma from rape (above any physical beatings in forcing her), such would necessarily be based on subjective accounts from women whose "work" frequently involves lying and stealing and in some cases extortion/blackmail. So you believe all the sociological PC crap studies relying on subjects who would often be considered unreliable witnesses in any other matter if you want to.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
False allegations of rape are a serious issue. And I belive that an extremely large proportion of accusation are, in fact, spurious. Something like 20%-30%. If not more.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the type of bad information I was referring to earlier. The common model for a long time was that false allegations were extremely rare. However, it now appears that 20%+ of rape allegations are false.


[ QUOTE ]
Rape is also a serious issue. Much more serious than assault. Sometimes rape is over-rated, as when people say "death is better" or some such thing. Occasionally a woman might prefer rape to assault - either due to psychological "variance" or due to a poor understanding of the consequences. Rape is deeply misunderstood by many, many people. There are those who claim it's no big deal, and they're wrong. Then there are those who claim it applies whenver a woman feels taken advantage of, and not only are they wrong, they perpetuate the myth that it's "no big deal" by trying to apply it to situations where it isn't a big deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think the effects of rape are understood at all and to treat rape as some horrible anomaly may be wrong because it may lead to wrong conclusions as to the effects. Rape has been an effective mating strategy for males thoughout our evolution. Oddly, the ability to rape successfuly may signify to a woman strong genes. I read a study that showed that a woman was 5 times more likely to continue to date a male who date raped her versus a male who tried to date rape her but who was unsuccessful. I am making no comments as to the morality, legal, emotions involved. I am simply saying that it the evolutionary basis for rape needs to be considered to understand its affects correctly.

[madnak]

Well, I'm glad we've both expressed our positions.

[BluffTHIS!]

Utah,

Wow. Just when I thought I had made myself the tallest lightning rod in this thread, you come along and top me by several feet. This should be fun.

[madnak]

I agree with all of this, and I even think some of the reason rape is traumatic in the Western world is that our culture tends to make it so. And I do believe the subject of rape can in some cases unfairly "favor the victim," but this is typically when the victim isn't truly a rape victim in the first place.

To me it seems clear there's a biological basis for rape. Assuming a man can't get laid by any other means, his only option for perpetuating his genome is to engage in rape. You could say that he could focus on his family instead or something, but rape is a highly plausible and clearly viable strategy in a species like humanity. But...

Have you ever had trouble sleeping because of persistent nightmares? Ever had panic attacks? Periods of debilitating depression?

If you have, then you won't take such symptoms lightly, whatever their source. We don't fully understand why rape has the effects that it does, but we do know that rape has some heavy effects (or tends to have those effects - there are exceptions where women don't seem to suffer much at all, but those exceptions appear to be almost random).

Also, as far as injustice goes, there may even be an inverse correlation between severity of the trauma and willingness to press charges. That is, often the people who need help most are the ones most reluctant to seek it. I'm with you that those seeking "help" just because they're pissed or feel taken advantage of hardly deserve our respect, and I think that a common cultural myth is developing that rape is bad just because it makes women feel angry, like they were "conned." But one of the reasons that is sad is because the true aftermath of violation is much more severe than that.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with all of this, and I even think some of the reason rape is traumatic in the Western world is that our culture tends to make it so. And I do believe the subject of rape can in some cases unfairly "favor the victim," but this is typically when the victim isn't truly a rape victim in the first place.

To me it seems clear there's a biological basis for rape.

[/ QUOTE ]


madnak,

Wow again. Now you've straddled the PC fence and are departing from the feminist rhetoric. Unless of course you merely define rape as only a form of violence, and that violence in general is what there is a possible biological basis for. Otherwise you've given a mitigating defense for why some rapists should be able to claim a lesser punishment (and justifies provocation arguements as to how a woman dresses/acts). Nice work.

[madnak]

You're the one who accused me of being PC. Now you seem to be refuting yourself.

For the record, I think women have greater social benefits than men and the "sexual harassment" is a load of [censored].

But, uh... I'm sure I'm just a PC-whore incapable of forming my own opinions.

[Bill Haywood]

Bluff this, consider your culpability in this scenario:

Your job is on the line and you are about to lose your house. You are desperate to clinch a new contract for your company.

You are lunching with a potential customer. You can tell he wants you. You don't actually flirt, but you let him pay the check, and accept his repeated follow up calls for more meetings to "discuss" your product. You give him all the time he wants.

Eventually, you get a contract.

Next day, he's calling again, and you stop taking his calls.

A week later, you are attacked and asss raped in the parking garage. Blood fills your shoes.

Do you have culpability?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
madnak,

If you own a pawnshop and sell hot merchandise, and someone comes in and "steals" some of same, did you get stolen from? You are making the assumption that a prostitute should legally be able to sell sex and some of us aren't. Therefore we will reach differing conclusing from different premises when the remaining facts are otherwise the same.

Furthermore, David's argument is that even if she should be able to sell sex, having that sex "stolen" from her shouldn't be as psychologically traumatizing as for someone who doesn't sell sex, and particularly for someone who believes she shouldn't sell sex.

[/ QUOTE ]

so, since you believe that prostitution should not be legal, prostitutes should not be be given sympathy. so, being a pro-lifer, you also assume that abortion doctors should recieve no sympathy if gunned down on the way to work? is this correct?

[BluffTHIS!]

BH,

I'm not going to use the notify mod button on your post since this thread topic as well as much of my own posting is controversial, and to some, provacatively so. However, just as shown by your postings in the politics forum, you are clearly not a good thinker.

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
"Rape is sex taken against the will of the victim."

I guess you are technically correct. But rape normally carries with it a connotation that is lacking in this case and therefore it would be unfair for someone to punished in a similar manner as he would if the connotation applies.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I steal a car from a car salesmen, is that a lesser form of larceny?

[Bill Haywood]

A prosititue is less deserving of sympathy than someone who was just raped her out of the blue. After all, I think it's going to be a lot less painful for her emotionally.

I think it would be exactly the opposite.

Who would be more traumatized by a bad burn, a fireman or a carpenter? The fireman, because burns are an occupational hazard. He has to face the old trauma every time he clocks in. Rape is the number one occupational hazard of prostitution. Once a prostitute has been brutalized, his fear of a repeat will be even more intense.

There's some real dehumanization going on here.

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
Where are these studies that show all this great trauma? There has been a lot of false information pushed out about rape by the feminist movement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you get turned out by an entire cell block.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where are these studies that show all this great trauma? There has been a lot of false information pushed out about rape by the feminist movement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you get turned out by an entire cell block.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know there is great trauma because......

[madnak]

It's really not that hard. (http://www.google.com/search?q=rape+ptsd)

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of false information pushed out about rape by the feminist movement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you get turned out by an entire cell block.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know there is great trauma because......

[/ QUOTE ]

The same way I know sticking my dick in a blender would be traumatizing -- I'm sentient.

You honestly don't think being asss raped by D-Wing would be traumatizing? How about just Big Otis?

Know what, I bet there are no studies proving eye surgery with a trowel is shattering. But as Madnak says, there's always Google.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
It's really not that hard. (http://www.google.com/search?q=rape+ptsd)

[/ QUOTE ]

I could find you a 1000 links on the horrors of gambling. I could find you 1000 links on the horrors of eating fast food. I could also find 1000 links on how there is nothing wrong with gambling and 1000 link saying that eating fast food is fine.

I really need to see detailed valid studies for me to believe about anything. I looked through your list and I didnt see any scientific studies. Rather, it was just a list of supposed facts that the reader is supposed to take as true.

[madnak]

Alright, won't have time until tomorrow.

Though given that it's accepted rape is a major cause of PTSD, if we're to doubt that shouldn't we have some evidence to the contrary?

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a lot of false information pushed out about rape by the feminist movement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you get turned out by an entire cell block.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you know there is great trauma because......

[/ QUOTE ]

The same way I know sticking my dick in a blender would be traumatizing -- I'm sentient.

You honestly don't think being asss raped by D-Wing would be traumatizing? How about just Big Otis?

Know what, I bet there are no studies proving eye surgery with a trowel is shattering. But as Madnak says, there's always Google.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, since you are so obviously brilliant, please tell me the trauma/negative effects of the following:

1) A parent spanking a kid
2) Being bullied
3) Being cheated on
4) Robbed
5) Lied to
6) Being punched
7) Being fired
.....

They are all traumatic events. If any of these happen to me does that mean I am destined for a life of PTSD?

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, won't have time until tomorrow.

Though given that it's accepted rape is a major cause of PTSD, if we're to doubt that shouldn't we have some evidence to the contrary?

[/ QUOTE ] Note, I am not saying that it isnt. I am simply say that I am not accepting as fact that it always is.

[madnak]

It definitely isn't always. There are always exceptions to these sorts of things. And, not get destroy my reputation for being PC any further, but I'm 99.9% sure that somewhere in the world are women who would genuinely enjoy being raped.

But they aren't exactly common. Even most women into heavy BDSM bottoming are typically traumatized by actual rape.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Alright, won't have time until tomorrow.

Though given that it's accepted rape is a major cause of PTSD, if we're to doubt that shouldn't we have some evidence to the contrary?

[/ QUOTE ] Note, I am not saying that it isnt. I am simply say that I am not accepting as fact that it always is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Always?
does that mean if somebody finds one exception in 1000 then you are right?

luckyme

[revots33]

I think you are on the wrong track by equating the amount of sympathy we should have with how much trauma the rape causes. It's irrelevant. Maybe one person can psychologically handle being mugged better than another. That does not change how much the person deserved to be mugged.

"Sympathy" is not even the right word. What we're talking about is responsibilty. Is the hooker somehow more responsible for her own rape? For that matter, is the non-hooker who wears tight clothes or drinks with a bunch of male friends somehow more responsible for her own rape?

The answer is no. OF COURSE a woman is not responsible for being raped. There is only one criminal in this scenario, and it is the rapist.

Yes I suppose you could argue the woman should have been more cautious. But you could say the same thing about any victim of a crime. Am I somehow responsible for getting mugged if I decide to go out to dinner in Manhattan? It almost surely would'nt have happened if I locked myself in my apartment and never left.

This is all just blaming the victim of a violent crime and I think it's pathetic, sorry.

[BluffTHIS!]

revots,

You are ignoring the point that a prostitute is doing something illegal (whether is should be or not), regularly has sex with unknown guys, and is in a line of "work" where physical harm and disease often will be had.

If a criminal breaks into someone's house and steals his TV, and the owner shoots him in the back as he is fleeing across his yard with no expectation that the thief poses any threat of physical harm, that owner will be tried and convicted, unlike the case where in most states he can shoot an unarmed thief/intruder in the back inside the house. So would that owner still be the only criminal in the situation?

[Metric]

Tend to agree that in the case of the prostitute, I have little sympathy beyond the sympathy already granted her because she's a prostitute. However, in all cases I feel the crime is serious enough to completely justify the woman killing the man in self-defense (if she's armed).

[BluffTHIS!]

Metric,

The law in most if not all states would allow such a use of deadly force even when the rapist is unarmed.

[Bill Haywood]

Okay, since you are so obviously brilliant, please tell me the trauma/negative effects of the following...

You want empirical studies to decide when someone has been brutalized? If you've reduced to statistics something as violent as rape, then no set of data will move you, because you lack basic human feeling.

Try and regain some humanity. Imagine being raped by Sammy Gravano. I mean this seriously. Prove to us you have genuinely thought about the emotions of such an event.

[Metric]

I am not referring to the rapist being armed -- I'm referring to the woman being armed. I.E. I'm assuming that the femme who is about to be raped isn't going to be able to kill her attacker with her bare hands.

Another way of saying it: I support the gunning down of rapists without regard for who is being raped, even though I don't automatically have sympathy for all rape victims.

[BluffTHIS!]

Metric,

In many if not most/all states, a 3rd party would also have a legal right to use deadly force to prevent not only the death or serious maiming of another, but also rape. However a stricter standard is usually applied where that 3rd party has to be found to be factually accurate in his assessment of the situation, as opposed to the potential victim having a lesser standard of merely having a well-founded fear of same (you shoot a guy who was pointing what turns out to be a plastic toy gun at you and you're OK, but a 3rd party wouldn't be).

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
revots,

You are ignoring the point that a prostitute is doing something illegal (whether is should be or not)

[/ QUOTE ]

so Bluff, you WOULD have sympathy for a prostitute who was raped in an area where prostitution is legal?

[BluffTHIS!]

StalkerBob,

No because it's still immoral and the other reasons in the sentence above I gave that you didn't include in the quote still apply.

Troll on.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
StalkerBob,

No because it's still immoral and the other reasons in the sentence above I gave that you didn't include in the quote still apply.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah your legal bit was a red herring. What about a man raping a women he lives in sin with?

while your at it, what about a man raping his wife.

chez

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
StalkerBob,

No because it's still immoral and the other reasons in the sentence above I gave that you didn't include in the quote still apply.

Troll on.

[/ QUOTE ]

BigotThis,

Then why are you making any distinction about the legality of said activity?

So, you have no sympathy for doctors who perform abortions and are gunned down in cold blood? Their profession is immoral in your eyes, yes? Please do not ignore this question yet again.

By the way, calling me a troll doesn't change the fact that I tear all of your arguments to shreds and expose you for the hideous human being that you are.

[BluffTHIS!]

PB,

Change your account name to SuperHeroBob, and your custom title to: shredder and exposer.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
PB,

Change your account name to SuperHeroBob, and your custom title to: shredder and exposer.

[/ QUOTE ]

answer the question.

So, you have no sympathy for doctors who perform abortions and are gunned down in cold blood? Their profession is immoral in your eyes, yes?

[BluffTHIS!]

And your Loc to: Legend in my own mind.


And instead of just stalker/trolling me in active threads, use the search function and stalk my previous posting where you will find an answer to that irrelevant to my OP question.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stunned by this statement.

Separately - Bluffthis, how in the world can you call yourself a Christian?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if a few did, I would think it horrifying.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find nothing unusual in Bluff's religious moral base. Not that most christians I know would agree with him on this specific case, but virtually every one of them has some bias that they blame on their religion. Often the 'explanation' comes with 'god must have his reasons' or 'it's in the book' or ' ....'.

That's not saying that christians are necessarily bigoted or racist or misogynist, but those that are find support for their position in their religion and they can be justify it unquestionably that way. Read the various posts from a variety of christians on here and you'll see enough of it.

So, yes, christians do 'think like Bluff' in that they use the same unquestionable shield to fend of whatever twist they need to put on a topic.

luckyme

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
So, yes, christians do 'think like Bluff' in that they use the same unquestionable shield to fend of whatever twist they need to put on a topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Just look at the whole "homosexuality is immoral" argument. Very convenient when you can attribute your prejudices to some invisible guy in the clouds.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
And your Loc to: Legend in my own mind.


And instead of just stalker/trolling me in active threads, use the search function and stalk my previous posting where you will find an answer to that irrelevant to my OP question.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's a simple yes/no question. why are you so afraid to answer it?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stunned by this statement.

Separately - Bluffthis, how in the world can you call yourself a Christian?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am willing to bet the overwhelming majority of Christians and people for that matter) view Bluff as a complete nut.

[TheFaucet]

If I ass-raped OP because his statements were making me angry, would that make me a rapist or a homosexual?

[Bill Haywood]

[ QUOTE ]
If I ass-raped OP because his statements were making me angry, would that make me a rapist or a homosexual?

[/ QUOTE ]

Way too straight forward.

You entered a dark room, and thought you were ass raping the op, but actually, it was your wife, who thought she was a willing participant in fantasy play acting. Would you be a rapist? Would you be gay? Would you be an adulterer? Would it be different 1,000 years ago when mores were different? If she thought she was getting new wall paper in exchange, should she receive sympathy when you get too rough?

[Skidoo]

It would make you a Greek philosopher driving a point home.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]



And instead of just stalker/trolling me in active threads, use the search function and stalk my previous posting where you will find an answer to that irrelevant to my OP question.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many threads in which you have posted that I have not posted a thing. Simply calling me a stalker to deflect attention from your horrifying views may dupe some, but the majority here see right through it. Give it a rest.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stunned by this statement.


[/ QUOTE ]Why are you stunned? As a heterosexual male, wouldn't you also prefer to get f*cked in the ass by a stranger, then risk a hard beating? Almost all heterosexaul males would prefer to be raped in the ass. This is why we NEVER see much physical violence in male prisons around the world. Those who want to f*ck another male prisoner simply approach him with the proposition and, in order to avoid the perennial hard beating, the victim succumbs without any resistance whatsoever.

I thought this was common knowledge.

..I'm gonna be off now and treat myself to some ice cream, to wash off the bitterness and the sarcasm. Keep your cornholes clean, boys.

[TheFaucet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stunned by this statement.


[/ QUOTE ]Why are you stunned? As a heterosexual male, wouldn't you also prefer to get f*cked in the ass by a stranger, then risk a hard beating? Almost all heterosexaul males would prefer to be raped in the ass. This is why we NEVER see much physical violence in male prisons around the world. Those who want to f*ck another male prisoner simply approach him with the proposition and, in order to avoid the perennial hard beating, the victim succumbs without any resistance whatsoever.

I thought this was common knowledge.

..I'm gonna be off now and treat myself to some ice cream, to wash off the bitterness and the sarcasm. Keep your cornholes clean, boys.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you joking me I would take a hard beating over rape anyday.

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some of the reason rape is traumatic in the Western world is that our culture tends to make it so. And I do believe the subject of rape can in some cases unfairly "favor the victim," but this is typically when the victim isn't truly a rape victim in the first place.

To me it seems clear there's a biological basis for rape.

[/ QUOTE ]




Wow again. Now you've straddled the PC fence and are departing from the feminist rhetoric.

[/ QUOTE ]That would be the extreme feminist rhetoric, i.e. of people like Andrea Dworkin. To someone like you, requesting the respect of the sovereignty of one's own body is akin to "feminist rhetoric". But, in actual fact, the sovereignty of one's own body is "merely" a universal human right. Neither your Lord nor anybody else should have any kind of right on one's body.

This is, incidentally, why the matter of female sexuality grates so much the religious folks, be they Catholics, Islamists, or whatever. All religions are male religions, and, among other things, they denote (in code) the male fear of female independence, sexuality and ability to give birth (ah, yes, the great mystery).

The first duty of any self-respecting monotheitic religion is to put the women in tbeir place.

[ QUOTE ]
You've given a mitigating defense for why some rapists should be able to claim a lesser punishment (and justifies provocation arguments as to how a woman dresses/acts). Nice work.

[/ QUOTE ]We either accept and abide by "natural law" (cliff notes: Only Might Makes Right), or, as Jesus Christ originally said, we choose the righteous path. In this context, we either progress as a society in matters of sexual mores, among the other mores, and do not consider any and all women who dare dress themselves up as "asking for it" -- or we regress to cave men.

Mickey Brausch


PS: It is funny but, having conversed with religious muslims about the "appropriate treatment" of women, they give me almost exactly the same lines that BluffTHIS is hereby giving!

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
Rape is an act of violence. Regardless of the circumstances, no rape victim deserves to be the victim of that violence. Wheether or not you feel sympathy for that victim is entirely up to you. You're entitled to feel however you want. Although I question if your feelings flow from experience or are just untested opinions.

For me, I easily find sympathy for any of the victims in your scenarios. In some ways, I find greatest sympathy for the ones you describe as least deserving. The sex trade is a brutal environment that is filled with people who have few to no options. They are, by and large, prior victims of abuse and lack the ability to change their circumstances.

Regardless of who the victim is, or how they became a victim, I would challenge you to not feel sympathy for any rape victim if you were with one immediately after the occurence of the crime. Not, several days, weeks or months later. But, right after, When they are still bleeding and crying uncontrollably and the precense of a male in the room pushes them into hysteria and they curl up in a ball and try to hide in plain sight.

I doubt you could stand emotionless in that room, when rape is no longer just a word. But, is in fact a broken, shattered human being who is in the deepest, darkest depths of despair.

I don't believe you could watch unfeeling as their brusies form, their eyes swell shut and they try and hold the pieces of their torn clothing together in some futile attempt at modesty or self-protection.

I do not think you could smell the mix of fear, blood, sweat, semen, sh.it and piss that is covering them like a thick, heavy shroud and not feel they are deserving of sympathy.

If you could stand in that room and maintain that the person in front of you was undeserving of sympathy, than I would have to reserve my greatest sympathy for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is arguably the most important post ever posted on these forums.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
I only want to comment on the prostitute. She can't be raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong! Do you see why?

[MaxWeiss]

Clearly all the people in this thread who have so much less sympathy for the prostitute have had no experience with or done any research about the (illegal) industry. Pretty much, with very few exceptions, rape is rape.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rape is an act of violence. Regardless of the circumstances, no rape victim deserves to be the victim of that violence. Wheether or not you feel sympathy for that victim is entirely up to you. You're entitled to feel however you want. Although I question if your feelings flow from experience or are just untested opinions.

For me, I easily find sympathy for any of the victims in your scenarios. In some ways, I find greatest sympathy for the ones you describe as least deserving. The sex trade is a brutal environment that is filled with people who have few to no options. They are, by and large, prior victims of abuse and lack the ability to change their circumstances.

Regardless of who the victim is, or how they became a victim, I would challenge you to not feel sympathy for any rape victim if you were with one immediately after the occurence of the crime. Not, several days, weeks or months later. But, right after, When they are still bleeding and crying uncontrollably and the precense of a male in the room pushes them into hysteria and they curl up in a ball and try to hide in plain sight.

I doubt you could stand emotionless in that room, when rape is no longer just a word. But, is in fact a broken, shattered human being who is in the deepest, darkest depths of despair.

I don't believe you could watch unfeeling as their brusies form, their eyes swell shut and they try and hold the pieces of their torn clothing together in some futile attempt at modesty or self-protection.

I do not think you could smell the mix of fear, blood, sweat, semen, sh.it and piss that is covering them like a thick, heavy shroud and not feel they are deserving of sympathy.

If you could stand in that room and maintain that the person in front of you was undeserving of sympathy, than I would have to reserve my greatest sympathy for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is arguably the most important post ever posted on these forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to bring it forward again!

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly all the people in this thread who have so much less sympathy for the prostitute have had no experience with or done any research about the (illegal) industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFOMFT

You guys have no idea what idiots you sound like to anyone with a clue.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly all the people in this thread who have so much less sympathy for the prostitute have had no experience with or done any research about the (illegal) industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFOMFT

You guys have no idea what idiots you sound like to anyone with a clue.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course. ignorance is bliss.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, yes, christians do 'think like Bluff' in that they use the same unquestionable shield to fend of whatever twist they need to put on a topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Just look at the whole "homosexuality is immoral" argument. Very convenient when you can attribute your prejudices to some invisible guy in the clouds.

[/ QUOTE ]

In defense of theism here, some atheists do the same thing with "biology" (in quotes because of their misunderstanding of it).
You can choose any number of things to confirm your beliefs - religion is just one of them.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Put another way, if a stranger gave most women the choice of getting beaten up fairly badly or getting raped, most now would probably choose the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just stunned by this statement.

Separately - Bluffthis, how in the world can you call yourself a Christian?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am willing to bet the overwhelming majority of Christians and people for that matter) view Bluff as a complete nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded.

[Metric]

Are you implying that there is a "wrong answer" as to how much sympathy you feel towards any given victim? I agree that if I treated freshly raped prostitutes for a living (and hence had more of a clue), I'd probably have more sympathy for them. As it is I have sympathy for prostitutes in general, who I vaguely imagine live an absolutely miserable life -- but "did you hear, Rosie the whore got raped?" doesn't exactly hit me in the same way as if I'd heard that the victim was "Sophie the virgin."

[Hopey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Rape is an act of violence. Regardless of the circumstances, no rape victim deserves to be the victim of that violence. Wheether or not you feel sympathy for that victim is entirely up to you. You're entitled to feel however you want. Although I question if your feelings flow from experience or are just untested opinions.

For me, I easily find sympathy for any of the victims in your scenarios. In some ways, I find greatest sympathy for the ones you describe as least deserving. The sex trade is a brutal environment that is filled with people who have few to no options. They are, by and large, prior victims of abuse and lack the ability to change their circumstances.

Regardless of who the victim is, or how they became a victim, I would challenge you to not feel sympathy for any rape victim if you were with one immediately after the occurence of the crime. Not, several days, weeks or months later. But, right after, When they are still bleeding and crying uncontrollably and the precense of a male in the room pushes them into hysteria and they curl up in a ball and try to hide in plain sight.

I doubt you could stand emotionless in that room, when rape is no longer just a word. But, is in fact a broken, shattered human being who is in the deepest, darkest depths of despair.

I don't believe you could watch unfeeling as their brusies form, their eyes swell shut and they try and hold the pieces of their torn clothing together in some futile attempt at modesty or self-protection.

I do not think you could smell the mix of fear, blood, sweat, semen, sh.it and piss that is covering them like a thick, heavy shroud and not feel they are deserving of sympathy.

If you could stand in that room and maintain that the person in front of you was undeserving of sympathy, than I would have to reserve my greatest sympathy for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is arguably the most important post ever posted on these forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh please.

Edit: Maybe the most melodramatic post, perhaps.

[mattsey9]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if a few did, I would think it horrifying.

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't a Christian. He may say he is, but his actions in this thread show otherwise.

[BobOjedaFan]

[ QUOTE ]
In this thread in NVG (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=gossip&Number=8448402&pag e=0&fpart=1), started by Brandi Hawbaker (and you need to read the main Brandi thread to have the background), I am accused of being a huge dick, insensitive person, etc., for my posts in that thread. And I admit I could have posted better and not as aggressively. Also I brought up analogies to rape, as a purported sexual assault was related, which weren't entirely apt, and also gave my low opinion on strippers/hookers where I said:

"The bottom line is that strippers/whores view all men as suckers and try to get their money, and think that they deserve it because men treat women so badly. But when one of their marks turns the tables on them and cons them, they cry rape."


So the question I would like to discuss is this: how much culpability does a rapist have in various scenarios, and how much sympathy is due the victim in those same scenarios?

Scenarios:

1) Random woman is attacked at home by a rapist she doesn't know who breaks in, or is date raped by someone she has no reason to believe is likely to commit that act.

2) Woman dresses very provoactively and is drug into the bushes and attacked as she walks down an area she normally frequents.

3) Woman dresses provacatively and is in an area of town known to be a "bad area", or allows herself to become drunk in a college male dorm where she has no friends to watch her back and also doesn't know any of the males well, and is raped.

4) Woman in #3 now allows herself to be in those circumstances again, or is a friend of one who was so attacked in those circumstances, and thus knows of the danger.

5) A hooker or stripper propositions a male who then decides to take it for free and rapes her (otherwise she falls into one of the other categories above).


So in each scenario, how much culpability does the rapist have, and how much sympathy is due the victim from a decent person?


My ratings:

The rapist:

1-5: Possibly with the exception of a dorm resident who is too drunk to fully know what he is doing, the rapist is maximally culpable and should receieve the max punishment. Especially because even if the particular victim in question is seen to have put herself at risk unecessarily to some degree, that rapist is still a danger to other women in different circumstances.


The victim:

1 & 2: Deserving of maximum sympathy.

3: Deserving of maximum sympathy, but it must be acknowledged she did not act wisely in having some responsibility for putting herself uncessarily at risk.

4: Deserving of sympathy, but much less.

5: Undeserving of sympathy.



Yeah I know that's not "PC", but you all already knew I wasn't.

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I don't think all women who are strippers/whores view men as suckers who 'desrve it'. Desrve what? what is it? They know these men want a service and theyre doing an exchange. It's an illegal contract but neither side is 'ripping' each other off. IT is simply a type of contract that in our society we deem immoral. Not sure where you were going with that.

Anyway

Situation 1) 100% male's fault. Plenty of sympathy. - 1
Situation 2) 100% male's fault. Plenty of sympathy. You are allowed to dress however you want. If you don't like women who dress a certain way, then don't be friends with them - 1
Situation 3) 100% male's fault. Again, it isn't a crime to be stupid. If I go into the Bronx and get stabbed do I not desrve the same sympathy as if someone broke into my house and did it. I went to a bad neighborhood so I desrve it? WTF??? Some people make bad descisions, doesn't mean they desrve to get raped. - 1

Situation 4) Basically the same as situation 3.

Situation 5) Did they have sex as intended and he refused to pay her. Or did he just outright force her. If it's the second it's rape. Both were enganging in an illegal contract and should be punished for it, but how is that an excuse to not feel sympathy for a woman who was raped? Should I not feel a sorry for someone who is a theif if they get hit by a train one day. Because someone is committing a crime doesn't mean they desrve to get raped. Yes it isn't very smart of them, and they aren't making good life choices. But to say they 'deserve it' is assonine?

[PokerBob]

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Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

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Even if a few did, I would think it horrifying.

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He isn't a Christian. He may say he is, but his actions in this thread show otherwise.

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The problem with this statement is that Bluff will say the same thing, contending that he is the true Christian, and that others are not. He thinks he is on the righteous path and will be rewarded, and that being the scourge of the masses is part of it. He is the one true believer in a sea of hypocrites and fakes. The people who fly planes into buildings think the same thing. They are both wrong.

[mattsey9]

[ QUOTE ]
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Hopefully you guys don't come away from this thinking that all Christians think like Bluff.

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Even if a few did, I would think it horrifying.

[/ QUOTE ]

He isn't a Christian. He may say he is, but his actions in this thread show otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this statement is that Bluff will say the same thing, contending that he is the true Christian, and that others are not. He thinks he is on the righteous path and will be rewarded, and that being the scourge of the masses is part of it. He is the one true believer in a sea of hypocrites and fakes. The people who fly planes into buildings think the same thing. They are both wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about that. Churches are packed with people every Sunday who are misguided zealots the other 167 hours of the week.

[Wendell Pierce]

OP, you should talk to my friend tobias about this..
heres his card.

http://chud.com/nextraimages/analrapist.jpg