Chess match between equally skilled opponents

[Daisydog]

Consider a game of chess between equally skilled opponents. Is it possible for one of the opponents to win? If so, what causes that to happen? Skill? Luck? Something else?

Assume for this discussion that there is no inherent advantage to playing the white vs. the black pieces.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Consider a game of chess between equally skilled opponents. Is it possible for one of the opponents to win?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's all an illusion.

This question is framed poorly. The puzzle that you're after doesn't go away if you posit opponents that are slightly mismatched in skill - it isn't the case that a player who is more skillful by epsilon wins every game. And the advantage of white vs. black is a pretty big deal.

In practice, this is all because nobody plays a perfect game of chess. People make mistakes. The skill levels basically dictate how often and how subtle those mistakes are. Is there an element of luck? At low levels, I'd definitely say there is. People occasionally make great moves for the wrong reasons.

[vhawk01]

We had a thread a while ago about "is there luck in chess" and it quickly devolved into semantics about what luck is. It was interesting for a while though, OP might want to search for it.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
Consider a game of chess between equally skilled opponents. Is it possible for one of the opponents to win? If so, what causes that to happen? Skill? Luck? Something else?

Assume for this discussion that there is no inherent advantage to playing the white vs. the black pieces.

[/ QUOTE ]
The more skilled both opponents are, the more draws there will be.

[MidGe]

Very correct, lastchance, given equal skill level.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
Consider a game of chess between equally skilled opponents. Is it possible for one of the opponents to win? If so, what causes that to happen? Skill? Luck? Something else?

Assume for this discussion that there is no inherent advantage to playing the white vs. the black pieces.

[/ QUOTE ]

the better question was already framed decades ago like this:

"if god plays chess with god, what is the result?"

extracting a solution is currently an intractable problem given our present level of computing; but a future solution might be possible given a sufficient technological leap.

most want and believe the solution to be a draw.

if the solution is a win for either side then the game would feel broken to some.

ray

[Semtex]

Two equally skilled opponents playing perfectly with your pre-conditions? A draw every time. Why isn't it a draw every time? The starting black/white thing just might be important...

[almostbusto]

this is a horrible question. lesser skilled players beat players far superior to them regularly. its happening on fics and icc as we speak.

two even players will not draw quite often. and its not because of some human frailty, COMPUTERS CAN BEAT THEMSELVES in matches.

[Smasharoo]

lesser skilled players beat players far superior to them regularly.

You might mean lower ranked players beat higher ranked players regularly. Your statement as is as a "This is not a sentence." feel to it.

[Magic_Man]

[ QUOTE ]
this is a horrible question. lesser skilled players beat players far superior to them regularly. its happening on fics and icc as we speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd hardly say this happens "regularly". Sure, a 2100 and a 2000 are going to beat each other pretty often, but a 1600 stands almost no chance against a 2100. To say that they beat players "far superior" to them is just wrong. If a GM plays a beginner 1 million times, the GM will win 1 million times.

[ QUOTE ]
COMPUTERS CAN BEAT THEMSELVES in matches.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's the whole point of this thread. Chess is not solved, so a computer can't play perfectly. Each time one of them goes, they can see a few further moves ahead than they could previously.

~MagicMan

[almostbusto]

back when i played a lot of chess. i was either upset or i upset someone whose rating differential was >250 on most days. 250 point difference is huge, but nobody thinks anything of a 2000 beating a 2250. its just variance.

i also used to play a lot of slow chess, if anything, upsets were more common in my experience.


to the other post, the OP says nothing about playing perfectly. if you wanted to talk about playing perfectly, well you are a [censored] because by definition playing perfectly means not making mistakes. by the premise of the OP white has no advantage over black, so white doesn't make mistakes and black doesn't make mistakes, and they start from a position of pure equality, then you would have to be a complete idiot to suggest anything other than a draw would result.

[almostbusto]

[ QUOTE ]

lesser skilled players beat players far superior to them regularly.

You might mean lower ranked players beat higher ranked players regularly. Your statement as is as a "This is not a sentence." feel to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

no i mean very literally players with less skill beat players with more skill often.

[Smasharoo]

no i mean very literally players with less skill beat players with more skill often.

Oh, ok, my mistake. In that case you're just dead wrong by definition.

[almostbusto]

[ QUOTE ]

no i mean very literally players with less skill beat players with more skill often.

Oh, ok, my mistake. In that case you're just dead wrong by definition.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i am 100% right and the data supports my claim 100%. you are misinterpreting the word often.

[David Steele]

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if the solution is a win for either side then the game would feel broken to some.

[/ QUOTE ]

Curious as to why a forced draw would be viewed as less wrecked.

Practically, none of these results change anything.
And for super geniuses that somehow use the new information and play perfectly, the game is monotonous with all results.

D.

[Smasharoo]

no, i am 100% right and the data supports my claim 100%. you are misinterpreting the word often.

Afraid not.

Sorry. Don't feel bad, people are completely wrong all the time. You'll find a way to go on, I'm sure.

[lastchance]

You're both idiots. Yeah, lesser skilled players beat players who are more skilled all the time in chess. Call it whatever you want, it happens.

However, if two people are perfect at chess, they should have a forced draw 100% of the time. (considering black-white are equal) The less skilled people or machines are at chess (between two equal people), the more wins and losses there will be, the less draws there will be.

[almostbusto]

[ QUOTE ]
You're both idiots. Yeah, lesser skilled players beat players who are more skilled all the time in chess. Call it whatever you want, it happens.

However, if two people are perfect at chess, they should have a forced draw 100% of the time. (considering black-white are equal) The less skilled people or machines are at chess (between two equal people), the more wins and losses there will be, the less draws there will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess you are an idiot since you have just repeated exactly what i said