I support cheaters 100%, and I will cheat if I can

[soon2bepro]

I care very much about games, and poker is no exception. I hate that games allow cheating, so I really hate a game where players can cheat the rules.

Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous. Real competitive people throw away moral codes and do whatever is in their power to win. I think if we had more cheaters to show game organizers what they're doing wrong (otherwise they won't care), we'd actually have much less cheaters. Or none, which is my goal in any kind of game or competition I care for.

On the individual point of view, I think a competitive player who's goal is to win, should do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her goal. Cheating included, of course. Cheating is usually a high risk-high reward option. If the EV is positive, he/she should take the option. Sometimes the opportunity arises where a low risk-high reward cheating opportunity comes, with a huge positive EV. Not taking it, if your goal is to win, is just stupid.

If I was a game/competition organizer, I'd organize it so cheating was a highest as possible risk-lowest as possible reward option. But I would still encourage people to try to cheat, so I could learn more about how to disrupt cheating.

Let the flaming begin.

[JMP300z]

Sometimes I understand where your coming from but in most games where people are there to enjoy them (ITS A GAME!), I think the "spirit of the game" argument carries a lot of weight.

I also think that in most games/life situations, its very difficult to completely stop cheating. Like you said, you can make it -EV but all of this doesnt change the fact that they are now either stupid or morally reprehensible and deserving of scorn.


I think carrying your argument over to games is a bit far although i can see its applications in a free market society. Like I said, its just a game...after all we wouldnt want little kids juicin up in t ball.

-JP

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
I care very much about games, and poker is no exception. I hate that games allow cheating, so I really hate a game where players can cheat the rules.

Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous. Real competitive people throw away moral codes and do whatever is in their power to win. I think if we had more cheaters to show game organizers what they're doing wrong (otherwise they won't care), we'd actually have much less cheaters. Or none, which is my goal in any kind of game or competition I care for.

On the individual point of view, I think a competitive player who's goal is to win, should do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her goal. Cheating included, of course. Cheating is usually a high risk-high reward option. If the EV is positive, he/she should take the option. Sometimes the opportunity arises where a low risk-high reward cheating opportunity comes, with a huge positive EV. Not taking it, if your goal is to win, is just stupid.

If I was a game/competition organizer, I'd organize it so cheating was a highest as possible risk-lowest as possible reward option. But I would still encourage people to try to cheat, so I could learn more about how to disrupt cheating.

Let the flaming begin.

[/ QUOTE ]

in the context of poker:
would you lose quality of life if you cheated a friend?
would you lose quality of life if you cheated a stranger?

i've always maintained that it's very difficult if not impossible to cheat a loved one simply because the quality of your life is connected to them - their misfortune effects you - this isn't quite as true for total strangers who at times seem to be no more than fictional graphic text on your screen.

ray

[soon2bepro]

What you say about friends is true even if I don't cheat them. I wouldn't play poker vs my friends and take every penny they have. Or I would, but then I'd give it back. (Or give back what they need, be it more or less than what I took from them, as that part is irrelevant really)

In any case, if I'm playing with them, I'm usually playing to compete, not to win per se. It's not fun to cheat, not to me at least.

About strangers: No. I'm usually there to win over them. When there's big money on the line at least.

[DonkBluffer]

[ QUOTE ]



would you lose quality of life if you cheated a friend?
would you lose quality of life if you cheated a stranger?


[/ QUOTE ]
What is this quality of life and where do I buy it?

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I understand where your coming from but in most games where people are there to enjoy them (ITS A GAME!)

[/ QUOTE ]

"games" Really is a bad term. I should've said competitive games.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



would you lose quality of life if you cheated a friend?
would you lose quality of life if you cheated a stranger?


[/ QUOTE ]
What is this quality of life and where do I buy it?

[/ QUOTE ]

build a version of yourself that you admire - you'll know you're making progress if you very regularly sleep peacefully at night you enjoy waking in the morning.

ray

[Paragon]

I think like this more in terms of crime. One goal of a society should be to maximize risk of crime and minimize potential reward from successfully doing something illegal. Although people might not be conscious of it, they are making an EV decision when stealing, and have decided it's profitable for them.

[soon2bepro]

Yes, it also applies to crime. But for reasons I won't discuss in this thread, I don't like that comparison. (the law is unenforceable, plus you almost can't choose "not to play")

It's a good point you make, but please don't turn this thread into one about crime, as it's not my intention right now.

I'm trying to find out where people stand in the matter of cheating, and trying to see if I can get some to give up on their morals about it and analyze it rationally.

[JMP300z]

[ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to find out where people stand in the matter of cheating, and trying to see if I can get some to give up on their morals about it and analyze it rationally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quit attacking my impeccable morals.

-JP

[Skidoo]

If there are no limitations on your cheating, should your opponents be limited in how they react when they discover it?

[MaxWeiss]

I like your idea of penetration testing the game; in fact I think that would be very beneficial.

If you can live your life not caring how you disrespect others by taking advantage of them in an unfair way, then that is your choice. But don't you be surprised when your ass gets beat to all hell when we catch you. Or if your personal life suffers when people you claim to care about find out you have wronged them.

[Siegmund]

It's kind of hard not to turn this into a thread about crime.

When you sit down to play a game, you are agreeing to be bound by some set of rules or another. You want to do anything that is allowed under those rules to win, fine. If you want to try to get away with breaking the rules you agreed to, not fine. Go play in a game with a set of rules more to your liking.

Once you start down the path of doing whatever you can to win.... where, exactly, are you drawing the line between badgering your opponents, pulling the fire alarm so that you can grab chips off someone else's stack as the room empties, and simply plugging the winner of the tournament as he walks to his car afterward and taking the winnings from his pocket?

That said... you are right that the solution is to make cheating a high-risk low-reward activity via the way the game is organized. One common way to do that is to set the penalty for cheating at lifetime explusion from the sport and being stripped of your titles. Or, in other words, "cheaters are not welcome in this game. Ever."

[soon2bepro]

LOL, Well, I can't say I didn't expect that kind of replies.

In any case. If they want to hurt me that's their choice, but they'll be doing something illegal, which I wasn't.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Expecting people not to smoke is ridiculous.

chez

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
I care very much about games, and poker is no exception. I hate that games allow cheating, so I really hate a game where players can cheat the rules.

Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous. Real competitive people throw away moral codes and do whatever is in their power to win. I think if we had more cheaters to show game organizers what they're doing wrong (otherwise they won't care), we'd actually have much less cheaters. Or none, which is my goal in any kind of game or competition I care for.

On the individual point of view, I think a competitive player who's goal is to win, should do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her goal. Cheating included, of course. Cheating is usually a high risk-high reward option. If the EV is positive, he/she should take the option. Sometimes the opportunity arises where a low risk-high reward cheating opportunity comes, with a huge positive EV. Not taking it, if your goal is to win, is just stupid.

If I was a game/competition organizer, I'd organize it so cheating was a highest as possible risk-lowest as possible reward option. But I would still encourage people to try to cheat, so I could learn more about how to disrupt cheating.

Let the flaming begin.

[/ QUOTE ]

non-evil ethics dictate that you to never force another to play a game they do not want to play.

a non-evil mugger would first ask you if you wanted to play the get-mugged game.

an evil mugger doesn't ask.

poker isn't an identical comparison.

ray

[arahant]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I care very much about games, and poker is no exception. I hate that games allow cheating, so I really hate a game where players can cheat the rules.

Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous. Real competitive people throw away moral codes and do whatever is in their power to win. I think if we had more cheaters to show game organizers what they're doing wrong (otherwise they won't care), we'd actually have much less cheaters. Or none, which is my goal in any kind of game or competition I care for.

On the individual point of view, I think a competitive player who's goal is to win, should do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her goal. Cheating included, of course. Cheating is usually a high risk-high reward option. If the EV is positive, he/she should take the option. Sometimes the opportunity arises where a low risk-high reward cheating opportunity comes, with a huge positive EV. Not taking it, if your goal is to win, is just stupid.

If I was a game/competition organizer, I'd organize it so cheating was a highest as possible risk-lowest as possible reward option. But I would still encourage people to try to cheat, so I could learn more about how to disrupt cheating.

Let the flaming begin.

[/ QUOTE ]

non-evil ethics dictate that you to never force another to play a game they do not want to play.

a non-evil mugger would first ask you if you wanted to play the get-mugged game.

an evil mugger doesn't ask.

poker isn't an identical comparison.

ray

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait...there's some sort of 'evil ethics' i could have been using all this time?
dammit....

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Expecting people not to smoke is ridiculous.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is. What did you mean?

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
non-evil ethics dictate that you to never force another to play a game they do not want to play.

a non-evil mugger would first ask you if you wanted to play the get-mugged game.

an evil mugger doesn't ask.

poker isn't an identical comparison.

ray

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you tried to say there.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Expecting people not to cheat on ethical grounds is ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]
Expecting people not to smoke is ridiculous.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is. What did you mean?

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant 'yes it is'. The statement were equivalent. (why have we switched to the past tense?)

chez

[Sponger.]

Why not just start cheating in life and robbing banks and killing people to get ahead. That'll be good for society.

[Philo]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate that games allow cheating, so I really hate a game where players can cheat the rules...I think if we had more cheaters to show game organizers what they're doing wrong (otherwise they won't care), we'd actually have much less cheaters. Or none, which is my goal in any kind of game or competition I care for...On the individual point of view, I think a competitive player who's goal is to win, should do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her goal. Cheating included, of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you hate games that allow cheating, but you think that people should cheat. So, it's not the cheating itself that you hate (you actually condone cheating, in fact), it's "having rules that people can cheat."

The ideal system for you, then, would be one where people can't cheat the rules, but try to cheat anyway? Does this include yourself?

[gull]

In the game of life, cheating is -EV.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
If they want to hurt me that's their choice, but they'll be doing something illegal, which I wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

How in the hell do you figure that???? Cheating IS illegal. If you are talking about advantage play, that's a whole other thing, but by definition, cheating (in a legal card room) is illegal. How is it not?? How are you not doing anything illegal?????????????????????

[madnak]

Um, I guess if you cheat, then send a letter explaining how you cheated to the organizers, then give all your ill-gotten gains to charity, you could have a point.

Otherwise, well, nice rationalization.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
The ideal system for you, then, would be one where people can't cheat the rules, but try to cheat anyway? Does this include yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, but i'd change "system" for "competition".

In any case, in some games it's impossible to prevent all kinds of cheating, so the goal would be to make it very -EV, so even if people cheat they're not taking an advantage out of it.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Um, I guess if you cheat, then send a letter explaining how you cheated to the organizers, then give all your ill-gotten gains to charity, you could have a point.

Otherwise, well, nice rationalization.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the individual part is different.

If I'm there to win the prize, I'm going to do whatever it takes to win it. If the prize is worth it, I forget about having fun and just do whatever is in my power to win it, as long as it's +EV.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Um, I guess if you cheat, then send a letter explaining how you cheated to the organizers, then give all your ill-gotten gains to charity, you could have a point.

Otherwise, well, nice rationalization.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the individual part is different.

If I'm there to win the prize, I'm going to do whatever it takes to win it. If the prize is worth it, I forget about having fun and just do whatever is in my power to win it, as long as it's +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
It may not be +EV overall even if its +EV in the context of the game. That's where Ethics comes in.

chez

[West]

[ QUOTE ]
On the individual point of view, I think a competitive player who's goal is to win, should do anything in his/her power to achieve his/her goal. Cheating included, of course. Cheating is usually a high risk-high reward option. If the EV is positive, he/she should take the option. Sometimes the opportunity arises where a low risk-high reward cheating opportunity comes, with a huge positive EV. Not taking it, if your goal is to win, is just stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people believe there are more important goals in life than just winning baby.

[ QUOTE ]
build a version of yourself that you admire - you'll know you're making progress if you very regularly sleep peacefully at night you enjoy waking in the morning.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It may not be +EV overall even if its +EV in the context of the game. That's where Ethics comes in.

[/ QUOTE ]

[soon2bepro]

Can you guys read?

I said IF your goal is to win. (and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)

If you have other goals more important than that, then fine.

Obviously I have other goals myself. I don't wanna go to jail, for instance, so usually I'm not willing to commit a high-risk felony just to win the prize.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you guys read?

I said IF your goal is to win. (and chez, I said is the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)

If you have other goals more important than that, then fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes we can read. When I play I play to win but that doesn't mean cheating because there are ethical reasons not to do that.

It seems that all your saying is that if you ignore ethical considerations then cheating is correct. That's very different to your claim that ethics is no reason not to cheat.

chez

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
(and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)


[/ QUOTE ]
It still a question of ethics, how else will you decide if the prize is big enough?

chez

[West]

We can read fine. Superificially, most everyone plays competitive games with the goal of winning.

[ QUOTE ]
and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win

[/ QUOTE ]

No you didn't...

[jogsxyz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)


[/ QUOTE ]
It still a question of ethics, how else will you decide if the prize is big enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose ethics? Is it ethical to take ten minutes or more for every action? Take advantage of beginners? What about hiding yours cards, hoping the player with the best hand would muck his?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)


[/ QUOTE ]
It still a question of ethics, how else will you decide if the prize is big enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose ethics?

[/ QUOTE ]
your ethics.

chez

[ShakeZula06]

[ QUOTE ]
Real competitive people throw away moral codes and do whatever is in their power to win.

[/ QUOTE ]
I and a bunch of other people I consider 'real competitive' would disagree and are disgusted by this idea. Many competitve people do not cheat and are above it.

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they want to hurt me that's their choice, but they'll be doing something illegal, which I wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

How in the ... do you figure that???? Cheating IS illegal. If you are talking about advantage play, that's a whole other thing, but by definition, cheating (in a legal card room) is illegal. How is it not?? How are you not doing anything illegal???

[/ QUOTE ]

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Once you start down the path of doing whatever you can to win.... where, exactly, are you drawing the line between badgering your opponents, pulling the fire alarm so that you can grab chips off someone else's stack as the room empties, and simply plugging the winner of the tournament as he walks to his car afterward and taking the winnings from his pocket?

[/ QUOTE ]

EV draws the line. Usually crimes of this sort aren't +EV. and if they were, playing the game/competition would have nothing to do with it, you could just go there and rob the prize money, like you rob a bank. It's not my intention to discuss this at the moment.


[ QUOTE ]
That said... you are right that the solution is to make cheating a high-risk low-reward activity via the way the game is organized. One common way to do that is to set the penalty for cheating at lifetime explusion from the sport and being stripped of your titles. Or, in other words, "cheaters are not welcome in this game. Ever."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep that's good. But then you also need an effective method to identify cheaters with ease and certainty, or at least effective enough to make cheating very -EV.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that all your saying is that if you ignore ethical considerations then cheating is correct. That's very different to your claim that ethics is no reason not to cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I exaggerated. What I meant was that, the prize/fame being large enough, there will always be several people who are willing to do anything in their power to win. Some competitive people just care about competing. Others, more bloody type, just care about winning. Those are more likely to cheat.

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
How in the ... do you figure that???? Cheating IS illegal. If you are talking about advantage play, that's a whole other thing, but by definition, cheating (in a legal card room) is illegal. How is it not?? How are you not doing anything illegal???

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I'm not sure what the US laws say about cheating in card rooms. But where I live that's not considered a felony. And for other games/competition, worldwide I never heard of a cheater going to jail or having to pay a fine or anything like that.

It seems ridiculous to me that the law expects people to know every rule about every game/competition they play in, in every different place or ocasion.

[madnak]

I don't know that I'd consider those people competitive in the first place. To me, competitive people want to be the best, they don't want to trick people into thinking they're the best.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that all your saying is that if you ignore ethical considerations then cheating is correct. That's very different to your claim that ethics is no reason not to cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I exaggerated. What I meant was that, the prize/fame being large enough, there will always be several people who are willing to do anything in their power to win. Some competitive people just care about competing. Others, more bloody type, just care about winning. Those are more likely to cheat.

[/ QUOTE ]
okay, no-one going to disagree with the statement that some will cheat.

chez

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that I'd consider those people competitive in the first place. To me, competitive people want to be the best, they don't want to trick people into thinking they're the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither is universal and it is very personality based. Without elaborating, there does appear to be -
a) those who want to win.
b) those who want to be best.

I have friends that are very competitive that I won't bother playing games with. I have 'good' friends that you can play from the other room. Both sets are very competitive.
Although the first group would pass other 'they're great people' tests, that 'I'll cheat to win' part holds me just a bit farther from them.
Not making a general moral statement( I don't like pigeon tongue either) but the groups seem quite defined to me.

luckyme

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)


[/ QUOTE ]
It still a question of ethics, how else will you decide if the prize is big enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose ethics? Is it ethical to take ten minutes or more for every action? Take advantage of beginners? What about hiding yours cards, hoping the player with the best hand would muck his?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've hit on something, but I will comment on that in another thread soon.

[MaxWeiss]

So you define "illegal" as something major which has harsh consequences, not just illegal?

Like stealing gum from a store would not be "illegal" by your definition because it is not likely to get one thrown in jail??

[soon2bepro]

Ilegal is whatever the law forbids.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(and chez, I said if the prize is worth enough so that my most important goal is to win)


[/ QUOTE ]
It still a question of ethics, how else will you decide if the prize is big enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

Whose ethics? Is it ethical to take ten minutes or more for every action? Take advantage of beginners? What about hiding yours cards, hoping the player with the best hand would muck his?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've hit on something, but I will comment on that in another thread soon.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its a red herring. Its the ethics of the potential cheat that matters, no-one elses (except as regard getting caught).

chez

[jogsxyz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that I'd consider those people competitive in the first place. To me, competitive people want to be the best, they don't want to trick people into thinking they're the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously haven't played tournament bridge. Many players take every edge possible. In bridge the rules are murky, super competitive players are often able to win favorable rulings on every minor infraction.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know that I'd consider those people competitive in the first place. To me, competitive people want to be the best, they don't want to trick people into thinking they're the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously haven't played tournament bridge. Many players take every edge possible. In bridge the rules are murky, super competitive players are often able to win favorable rulings on every minor infraction.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tournament bridge is one of the best places to see the two groups I mentioned -
those that want to win.
those that want to be best .
There are many experts that I wouldn't play on the same team with, never mind partner.

luckyme

[MaxWeiss]

[ QUOTE ]
Ilegal is whatever the law forbids.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well, the law forbids cheating at card games in legal card rooms. What type of "legal" cheating are you doing then???

If I'm playing in a decently high stakes illegal operation, then I'm more on the lookout for "cheating" because everybody there is already committing a crime. But in a regular, legal room, I don't understand how you think cheating is not illegal.

Again, what cheating moves are you talking about?? And are you in a legal card room??

[soon2bepro]

Well, the law is already ridiculous in many aspects, I guess it doesn't shock me that it is in this one aswell.

In any case, it's not like that everywhere. Where I live, and I suspect in most countries, the law recognizes that there's no way it can criminally punish players for breaking a rule in a game/competition.