QT hand against a 2p2er, 3-bet pf.

[Barrin6]

Villian is a 2p2er. Stats are 23/16/2.6
Everything looking good?
I know I could c-bet and check here. But I find both options as marginal.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($32.65)
CO ($126.05)
<font color="#C00000">Button ($133.80)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($95)</font>
BB ($22.70)
UTG ($65.45)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $8.

Flop: ($25) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($25) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $17</font>, Button calls $17.

River: ($59) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $35</font>

[thedustbustr]

checking flop isnt marginal at all. betting flop is not great.

river betsizing good.

[goofyballer]

PSR preflop is to 14, make it 15 or 16 to encourage him to fold, 3betting OOP with a marginal hand is pointless if you're gonna give him great odds to call you.

Flop could go either way, checking's okay. I like a bigger bet on the river simply b/c I don't think he's going to fold any pair for any amount after you he peels turn; it looks like you're weak and going for pot control, or don't feel comfortable c-betting KQ or whatever; he won't put you on trips. If he has 88/99 on the turn he's not gonna fold it to a $48 bet on the riv.

[xorbie]

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betting flop is mandatory

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[Dan Bitel]

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betting flop is terrible

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[xorbie]

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betting flop is mandatory

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[Casper05]

I dont think it really matters either way, other than youre getting AK/AQ to fold.

[Dan Bitel]

xorbie,

why would you bet the flop

[MATT111]

I like every street. In a vacuum checking the flop seems way better than betting. History could all change it though.

[xorbie]

you reraised preflop, this is pretty much the scenario in which you should almost always bet, especially when you have a hand which is probably good, which can easily fold to a raise, which can't really call a bet and which is quite vulnerable.

not to mention he could easily call with 88/99/TJ/T9

[xorbie]

i dont understand. is this game a rock fest or something? if he never calls your reraise without AK/TT+, just reraise every single hand.

[Dan Bitel]

x,

sorry man, but gonna have to disagree with you.

When people started out 3betting light, then yeah betting the flop 100% was all the rage, then people started expecting it and people starting thinking about it more. Now in this particualr hand, sure, betting *might* get value out of 88/99/JT etc, but getting value and getting to showdown vs those hands are MUCH easier by checking the flop (and yes we are most certainly calling a bet after we check this flop). What we are doing is using a common leak of players (maybe not leak, but certainly a common trend) and that is ppl don't like 2 barrelling and they hate 2 barrelling in rr pots. So, IMO c/c here and checking turn ets us know exactly where we stand. It helps stopping us getting bluffed and floated off the best hand. It induces calls/bluffs from worse hands.

(and yes, before you ask, I check a set/AA etc here often too)

[Dan Bitel]

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i dont understand. is this game a rock fest or something? if he never calls your reraise without AK/TT+, just reraise every single hand.

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obv they call lighter, but thats more fo a reason to check. Usually they are drawing to 6, 3 or 2 outs here

[thedustbustr]

dbitel is right. and whether he checks sets/aa is not terribly relevant.

[xorbie]

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dbitel is right. and whether he checks sets/aa is not terribly relevant.

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of course its terrible relevant. if youre going to be reraising light, this is a great opportunity to be able to easily stack people when you have the goods. if you start check everytime its marginal, your toast.

and what do you guys do when you check, he checks, turn A? c/c? c/f? turn J or K? turn any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? or if you c/c, what do you do on any turn?

against most players who dont want to get out of line, if they have a marginal but showdownable hand they arent going to be bluffing you out... if he has 88/99 or a smaller T then your holding is pretty much the one and only holding that will bet the flop and check the turn and river which beats him.

if he likes to get out of line, then vary your line later... maybe c/r some turns or c/c the turn or river, but just checking this flop seems really lame with this hand.

[xorbie]

[ QUOTE ]
What we are doing is using a common leak of players (maybe not leak, but certainly a common trend) and that is ppl don't like 2 barrelling and they hate 2 barrelling in rr pots. So, IMO c/c here and checking turn ets us know exactly where we stand. It helps stopping us getting bluffed and floated off the best hand. It induces calls/bluffs from worse hands.

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actually it lets villain know exactly where he stands. it doesn't tell us jack crap about we has, and it "induces bluffs" that you're really not in a great position to call.

[Dan Bitel]

x,

I'd rather him know where he stands and paying a 3/4 PSB for that knowledge than him folding for free.

And against all but the very best players, it lets us know EXACTLY where we stand

EDIT: and we're in great shape to call his bluffs

[xorbie]

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EDIT: and we're in great shape to call his bluffs


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bluffs where? on what cards? there are so many turn/river combos that just suck ass.

i'm just not seeing any downside to a bet here. we fold out hands with 6 outs. we avoid losing a pot where we have the best hand. we have little chance of improvement when beat, so theres no loss there. theres little chance of getting bluffed off our hand. theres value in our bet, because villain will call with hands we beat. he'll probably raise almost anything we don't beat.

[Dan Bitel]

x,

loads of average TAGs will bluff raise with hands we beat. if he calls with a worse hand, he was calling with that hand on turn anyway. Who cares about losing to 6 outs, if they will bluff flop for a 3/4 pot bet? And he only raises our bet with a hand we beat if he's rly bad, so when he raises flop, you got no idea if he's bluffing/semibluffing or playing AA/set badly. However, if you c/c the flop you know for a fact his range for betting the flop is huge and you crush it, so calling is def +EV, and like i said earlier, you can then safely c/f turn as so few players will 2 barrel a hand you beat

[xorbie]

im pretty sure hes not going to be betting this flop with too many made hands that we beat.

[Dan Bitel]

x,

you're VERY VERY wrong there

[MATT111]

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EDIT: and we're in great shape to call his bluffs


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bluffs where? on what cards? there are so many turn/river combos that just suck ass.

i'm just not seeing any downside to a bet here. we fold out hands with 6 outs. we avoid losing a pot where we have the best hand. we have little chance of improvement when beat, so theres no loss there. theres little chance of getting bluffed off our hand. theres value in our bet, because villain will call with hands we beat. he'll probably raise almost anything we don't beat.

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When ahead:
-we gain value from lesser hands that almost certainly give up to a flop bet,
-we give villain a chance to catch up with reverse dominated hands,
-villain will gives us free cards in future hands when we need them,
-there are very few hands with &gt;3 outs here. so giving a free card doesn`t hurt us badly.

When behind:
- we`ll invest about the same amount as if we bet but get to see if we catch one of our outs against AA, KK.

[Praetor]

Dbitel is right

[2Paul2]

Betting can be good opponent/image dependant. When I'm betting this flop though it will usually be because I'm willing(looking) to get my stack in somewhere.

Barrin,

Line looks good but you can bet more(often shove) on the river.

Paul

[gimmetheloot]

any1 like a river c/r?