87s, and i just keep getting more outs...

[VorShot]

BB is 57/35 and trys to outplay everyone (big case of fancy play syndrome), check raising and showing bluffs and such, so his range could be anything from a real hand to air.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
5 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $4.60
VorShot: $11.05
Button: $10.60
SB: $13.10
BB: $12.70

Pre-flop: (5 players) VorShot is CO with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">VorShot raises to $0.5</font>, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG folds.
<font color="blue"> Standard raise for CO here, nothing crazy. </font>

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1.15, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $0.7</font>, VorShot calls $0.7 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was $1.85)</font>.
<font color="blue"> Well he bets right out, and i'm looking at 9 outs. I want to look at a turn here and go from there. I'm having to call .70 for $1.85, so i'm not getting the best of odds, but since i can assume a turn bet is coming from this guy, i think i have the implied odds to make up the 1.65 i'm missing here if i hit.</font>

Turn: T/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.55, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $1.8</font>, VorShot... <font color="blue"> Implied odds were solid, but it seems i missed, but i did pick up another set of outs. I now have 12. (Even though this is an OES draw, the J would make it so a K has me beat, so i'm only couning the 6's)

Now i'm having to call 1.80 for a 4.35 pot. i need 3:1 and i'm not getting it. Implied odds i figure are done at this point. Is this a fold?</font>

[Imrahil]

I call but a fold isn't aweful.

[wslee00]

at 10NL, I just call pf. One part of the reason for raising suited connectors is to fold out hands that these fish would usually limp in with. At 10NL, they ain't folding with ace rag.

In addition, raise the flop - you will get your free card for cheaper.

[VorShot]

Raise to what?

[TimsterToo]

If you want to teach BB a lesson this would be a good point to reraise allin. You gain folding equity as he knows that he can't make you fold anymore and you have a decent amount of outs if he really has a hand this time. I certainly wouldn't give him credit for the K by the description you gave of him. (and if he does have it without a flush draw and calls the allin he's making a HUGE mistake and you should be happy to play him)

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
if you want to teach BB a lesson this would be a good point to reraise allin. You gain folding equity as he knows that he can't make you fold anymore and you have a decent amount of outs if he really has a hand this time. I certainly wouldn't give him credit for the K by the description you gave of him. (and if he does have it without a flush draw and calls the allin he's making a HUGE mistake and you should be happy to play him)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad.

[TimsterToo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you want to teach BB a lesson this would be a good point to reraise allin. You gain folding equity as he knows that he can't make you fold anymore and you have a decent amount of outs if he really has a hand this time. I certainly wouldn't give him credit for the K by the description you gave of him. (and if he does have it without a flush draw and calls the allin he's making a HUGE mistake and you should be happy to play him)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate, your remark is worthless without explanation.

[wslee00]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise to what?

[/ QUOTE ]
raise to 2

[Marshall28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you want to teach BB a lesson this would be a good point to reraise allin. You gain folding equity as he knows that he can't make you fold anymore and you have a decent amount of outs if he really has a hand this time. I certainly wouldn't give him credit for the K by the description you gave of him. (and if he does have it without a flush draw and calls the allin he's making a HUGE mistake and you should be happy to play him)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate, your remark is worthless without explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

its bad given the previous play of the hand. FE is extremely diminished on the turn considering villain has shown strength on flop and turn.

other problem is you are only about 30 percent at best to improve on the river here to the best hand. the flop is the time to make all in moves w/ big draws because your odds are a lot better to hit when you have two cards to come.

as for the play of the hand, i would have just called pf at best, probably folded because a semi bluff is so ineffective at 10nl, and thats what youll be doing a lot of the time when you bet this hand after the flop.

anyways, on the flop i would definitely raise his bet 3x, play after that is extremely dependant on what villain does so i cant really give much more advice. just remember the rule that if your hand is good enough to call, you should probably be raising. the fact that you werent getting good expressed odds is more evidence that a raise here is best.

[TimsterToo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you want to teach BB a lesson this would be a good point to reraise allin. You gain folding equity as he knows that he can't make you fold anymore and you have a decent amount of outs if he really has a hand this time. I certainly wouldn't give him credit for the K by the description you gave of him. (and if he does have it without a flush draw and calls the allin he's making a HUGE mistake and you should be happy to play him)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate, your remark is worthless without explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]

its bad given the previous play of the hand. FE is extremely diminished on the turn considering villain has shown strength on flop and turn.

other problem is you are only about 30 percent at best to improve on the river here to the best hand. the flop is the time to make all in moves w/ big draws because your odds are a lot better to hit when you have two cards to come.

as for the play of the hand, i would have just called pf at best, probably folded because a semi bluff is so ineffective at 10nl, and thats what youll be doing a lot of the time when you bet this hand after the flop.

anyways, on the flop i would definitely raise his bet 3x, play after that is extremely dependant on what villain does so i cant really give much more advice. just remember the rule that if your hand is good enough to call, you should probably be raising. the fact that you werent getting good expressed odds is more evidence that a raise here is best.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see where you're coming from but I think we interpret the way he describes the villain differentely. I really don't see him having a lot and he's been messing around with OP for a while. If we'd be saying that villain probably has a hand at the moment and we only look at the mathematical odds I can't other then fully agree with you.

[Marshall28]

players are so erratic at these limits that i dont consider reads to be accurate at all. only thing i would go on is vpip/pfr% ... anything else i wouldnt even bother considering. i dont care what he has, im only going to showdown a hand if i am made, otherwise ill try to push him out. if he shows resistance, im going to give him credit because he'll just do it again and again ... so whenever u make your hand then you will bust him.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you want to teach BB a lesson this would be a good point to reraise allin. You gain folding equity as he knows that he can't make you fold anymore and you have a decent amount of outs if he really has a hand this time. I certainly wouldn't give him credit for the K by the description you gave of him. (and if he does have it without a flush draw and calls the allin he's making a HUGE mistake and you should be happy to play him)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please elaborate, your remark is worthless without explanation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it has some worth, being that OP now knows what not to do...

1. The villain is a maniac...we pretty much have no FE if he has any hand.
2. We have good odds to call.
3. By sem-bluffing a LAG AI, we force him to play perfectly against us--he calls with pairs and big draws...folds air--he HAS to have complete air for a shove to be good.

We "teach a lesson" to LAGS by calling them down when they have air and by value betting decent hands--not by semi-bluffing drawy/scary boards.

[Crimsonjade]

I would fold turn. You gave it a shot, fold here and get him back another time.

He is reraising preflop to build a pot as well. He hits this flush and he can probably take most of the guys stack here. He can make back much of what he lost here with a few c-bets from weaker players.

[ QUOTE ]
We "teach a lesson" to LAGS by calling them down when they have air and by value betting decent hands--not by semi-bluffing drawy/scary boards.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Encourage the guy to bluff you more and you are golden.

[VorShot]

By the end of this session, i took a buyin off him.

in this hand, i called, saw the river, it was a seven, he checked, i checked, he had AJo.

[gimmetheloot]

Vorshot, turn call is perfect. All you need to make up on the river would be ~1/3 pot bet....no way you dont make that up on a club, and you make waaaay more on a 6.

Also, a flop raise is optional, against this guy, who likes to put money in and bluff people hard, I am inclined to call and just look at the turn card.