50NL- I'm going to fold KK PF some day [Archive]

Imrahil

12-09-2006, 03:15 PM

Ok, people are always like "Zomg don't fold KK PF online like ever". Well that's just stupid talk. Poker is not about "rules" but situations. I just got stacked by AA vs. my KK and many people will just say that that will happen and that's just poker. But why stick my money in when I KNOW he has AA?? I'm basically just agreeing that when you have KK PF never fold.

Villain here is 29/12/5 over 65 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($49.25)
SB ($134.40)
BB ($173.50)
UTG ($19.25)
MP ($44.50)
CO ($19.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, 1 fold, BB raises to $7, MP folds, Hero raises to $20, BB raises to $173.5

Um..this is never AK or QQ. I'm sorry, but it just isn't. I've played enough 25NL and some 50NL to know that players don't play QQ and AK like this. Most importantly TAGs don't play this way. There are some non-TAGs who will play QQ and AK like this but against this villain his range is exactly AA (KK too, but chances are very slim he doesn't have that.

Disagree all you want but I believe in certain sits. KK can be folded and not made into an excuse "well I never fold KK PF". I'm not suggesting folding this to complete unkowns at 5NL but there are those times that a KNOWN player just has to have KK.

OK flaming commence. Well before you do, please post some KK vs. AA hands that you lost and I'd love to see how the PF raising went and villains stats if possible. By the way, only full stacks matter. You can't and shouldn't fold KK vs. a 80BB stack or less. I'd also like to see if your KK has ever stacked a 100BB stack with QQ PF.

Prove me wrong people.

skillzilla

12-09-2006, 03:19 PM

noone fastplays aces preflop, this is qq or ak like always
actully ive never gone allin preflop @nl25 against 100b stacks so i really dont know, but since there oop the chances are that there trying to get it in with AKs or something else thry cant lay down

Imrahil

12-09-2006, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
noone fastplays aces preflop, this is qq or ak like always
actully ive never gone allin preflop @nl25 against 100b stacks so i really dont know, but since there oop the chances are that there trying to get it in with AKs or something else thry cant lay down

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people fastplay AA PF especially TAGs.

Phytopath

12-09-2006, 03:26 PM

I've folded KK pre-flop exactly 1 time before, and sure enough he flashed AA. Sometimes you just know. I don't get in the situation all that often though since I don't 4-bet with KK in position PF as a standard play though.

avfletch

12-09-2006, 03:52 PM

You think someone with an aggression factor of 5 only plays aces this way?

Personally I've only ever once folded KK preflop and that was because the biggest mouse on the planet pushed allin over my heavy 4bet. I had over a thousand hands on him and had seen him call a reraise with QQ a couple of times so it was *only* AA/KK he was holding.

poincaraux

12-09-2006, 04:32 PM

All I know is you'd better be damn sure that this is *never*, and I mean *NEVER*, anything else. I'm too lazy to plug into PokerStove right now, but you're 80:20 vs. AA and 50:50 vs. KK. 6 combos of AA, 1 of KK, so you're about 75:25. The pot is offering you 70:30. You can work out the math yourself to see what tiny percentage of the time you need to him to have AK, QQ, JJ or whatever, and you should, because if you had a slightly shorter stack, or if there was a little dead money in the pot, you'd be getting direct odds vs. your nightmare range, much less vs. what *I* think his range is.

carnivalhobo

12-09-2006, 04:41 PM

your 4bet is too small, and once you make the 4bet with 100bbb stacks folding is wrong from an equity point of view against almost all opponents.

Bowlboy

12-09-2006, 04:44 PM

I do agree with the op that there are some situations you 'just know' you are up against AA. You still cant be 100% however, so you have to take a few things into account. The fact that villain in this situation is TAG leans more toward AA but this is only level 1 thinking. You have to look at what villain thinks you have. What have you been 3 betting reraising with preflop? Sometimes, a thinking player may notice you playing QQ against another player. You might push preflop against QQ against a LAG tard for good reason who likes to re-pop you with big raises with hands like 55. A TAG who has just recently sat down at the table sees this and makes a note on you that you pushed PF with QQ. Get where I'm going with this? OP should include what sort of reads villain may have on him here. That is really the most important factor in determining his range.

poincaraux

12-09-2006, 05:47 PM

If you're going to fold here, why not just call the $7 and play post-flop against a much bigger range?

orange

12-09-2006, 06:10 PM

Never fold KK for 100bbs > unless your playing vs. a 10/1/1 or something.

absoludicrous

12-09-2006, 06:28 PM

I expect to see kings/aces here more often than any other hand. But you have enough $ invested already that makes folding a mistake.

poincaraux

12-09-2006, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I expect to see kings/aces here more often than any other hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Come on now, we all know that you need to quantify things better than that. I worked things out above .. if you absolutely, for sure, honest-to-goodness *know* that he only has AA-KK, it's a high-school math problem and you're not getting the odds. If you think there's some chance that he could have some other hand, figure out what you mean by "some chance" and "other hand" .. and then it's a high-school math problem and you are getting the odds.

blackize

12-09-2006, 06:36 PM

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $132.05
UTG+1: $38.95
Hero: $50
Button: $38.45
SB: $61.95
BB: $74.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises to $2.5, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($7.75, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4.75, BB raises to $15, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises all-in $47.5, BB calls.

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif ($102.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $102.75)

River: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($102.75, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $102.75)

Results:
Final pot: $102.75
Hero showed Kh Kc
BB showed Td Ts

Villain in this hand is 20/15

h0ser

12-09-2006, 06:42 PM

65 hands is not enough info to lay down KK. If his preflop raise %<5 then maybe.

absoludicrous

12-09-2006, 06:44 PM

blackize, this is postflop, not preflop, way way way way different.

Poincaraux- 4 betting all in preflop with AK or QQ with those stats, very very rarely. BUT, I think it's incorrect to fold here given that we have 1/2 our stack in the pot...

Imrahil

12-09-2006, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
blackize, this is postflop, not preflop, way way way way different.

Poincaraux- 4 betting all in preflop with AK or QQ with those stats, very very rarely. BUT, I think it's incorrect to fold here given that we have 1/2 our stack in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it's 40% because I raised to $20 and have $30 behind.

Tien

12-09-2006, 07:15 PM

Ship it, reload, next hand.

absoludicrous

12-09-2006, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
blackize, this is postflop, not preflop, way way way way different.

Poincaraux- 4 betting all in preflop with AK or QQ with those stats, very very rarely. BUT, I think it's incorrect to fold here given that we have 1/2 our stack in the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it's 40% because I raised to $20 and have $30 behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still in an awkward spot. I mean, go with your read. I don't care what 50 people tell you on these forums. Go with your read. But keep in mind, just cause he has TAG stats, doesn't mean he's a skilled thinking player, maybe he's been cold decked the last hour...

Personally, I put my remaining stack in here, unless he's like 10/1/1.

Panthro

12-09-2006, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ship it, reload, next hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check_The_Nuts

12-09-2006, 08:27 PM

o o o here's my can't fold kings preflop hand. Villian is nitty 15/11, but steals some (20%). His 4bet only has value against exactly kings.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($23.95)
SB ($25.75)
Hero ($25.35)
UTG ($14.65)
MP ($41.65)
CO ($68.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Button raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3, CO folds, Button raises to $6, Hero raises to $25.35, Button calls $17.95 (All-In).

Flop: ($49.65) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($49.65) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($49.65) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $49.65

kitaristi0

12-09-2006, 08:54 PM

After you've put in $20, you're getting 2.33-to-1 to call the shove, so you need to win 30% to break even. Even against a range of KK+ you have 22% equity. So if he ever plays a hand other than AA or KK this same way as well you are making a big mistake by folding. And people at 50NL do all kinds of stupid random crap all the time.

I agree it's not useful to make blanket statements like "never fold KK preflop" but at 50NL without an extremely good read you just can't fold KK preflop and expect it to be a good play.

blackize

12-09-2006, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

blackize, this is postflop, not preflop, way way way way different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I misread raw HHs wrong so often. I really should proofread.

absoludicrous

12-09-2006, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

blackize, this is postflop, not preflop, way way way way different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, I misread raw HHs wrong so often. I really should proofread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still /images/graemlins/heart.gif ya.

clownslayer2

12-09-2006, 09:29 PM

I completely agree. so many times you have KK and re raise someone, they re raise right back you just get that feeling in your stomach "Villain has ACES" but then its like "I have KK" well it needs to be laid down in certain situations. I know that people always say "Never lay it down pre flop" but against certain villains, I completely agree with you that it can be done. With as many hands as we play online, a feeling about this is so obvious, and everytime the mistake is made to push right back or call.

clownslayer2

12-09-2006, 09:32 PM

he might be getting some good odds, but why put the money in if you have that feeling he has aces? no reason to put dead money into a put based on some statistics. you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this. I also am trying to learn to not 4 bet all in. try and catch a set on the flop. I hate the all in pre flop.

kitaristi0

12-09-2006, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but you can't win much either.

clownslayer2

12-09-2006, 09:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but you can't win much either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im just saying, if you are not positive about your chance of putting your stack in the middle, why do it? Wait for another time, sure it could be a horendous laydown, but why put your stack in the middle pre flop if you feel villain has the ACES? I make this mistake just as often, and it frustrates the hell out of me. I am really trying to learn to keep my stack out of the middle when I have SERIOUS doubt im winning.

poincaraux

12-09-2006, 10:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he might be getting some good odds, but why put the money in if you have that feeling he has aces? no reason to put dead money into a put based on some statistics. you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif If you're serious about this, please do some reading about odds and expected value, and then think about the fact that there's a lot of money in the middle already. If he's ahead of you but you have odds, you'll make money long-term by putting money in the middle, even if you'll lose way more often than you win. Our goal is to win money in the long term, not win every pot.

clownslayer2

12-09-2006, 10:25 PM

ok. im sorry, Im glad you have told me this. I am trying to learn this game and obviously know very little at this moment.

holdme

12-09-2006, 11:05 PM

I'm afraid I agree with OP on this one. I mean the guy 5bet from the BB ffs. I honestly expect AA or KK.

jonyy6788

12-10-2006, 12:07 AM

Most of the time in my experience if I get 5-bet I'm [censored]

Chomp

12-10-2006, 12:40 AM

Well, this isn't a standard pf situation, is it? A normal situation goes something like raise, reraise, c/f.

But here, his final bet is the 4th raise. I know 2+2 hates glib generalisations, but the old rule of thumb that the 4th raise is always Aces is a very very, good one.

That's what we have here. If he'd shoved earlier, maybe OP you'd be ok. But the 4th raise IS always Aces.

Colm

12-10-2006, 12:49 AM

i play qq this way sometimes. i wish they would fold, but they always call with a better hand, but i am not a good player lol.

EMc

12-10-2006, 01:40 AM

I used to be in the never fold KK pf camp.

Then I realized that saying that is pretty dumb. He has AA here.

Hail Eris

12-10-2006, 02:05 AM

If you think he must always have AA here, then why are you 4betting? Whatever villain has, you're basically forcing him to push or fold.

It's also worth mentioning that you're BTN and villain is BB and you're 4betting him from the BTN. Come on, this would've been an atrocious fold had you made it.

br.bm

12-10-2006, 02:20 AM

I totally agree, fold KK in situations like this ... to known TAGs on NL 25 or 50

Speedlimits

12-10-2006, 03:15 AM

Never fold KK pre flop for 100bbs.

This happened like twice to me today and villian showed AK and 1010.

nice.

Speedlimits

12-10-2006, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he might be getting some good odds, but why put the money in if you have that feeling he has aces? no reason to put dead money into a put based on some statistics. you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this. I also am trying to learn to not 4 bet all in. try and catch a set on the flop. I hate the all in pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. you must be a losing player.

gdsdiscgolfer

12-10-2006, 03:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to be in the never fold KK pf camp.

Then I realized that saying that is pretty dumb. He has AA here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Imrahil

12-10-2006, 10:05 AM

To bring this thread back to life, I never have the notion of just calling a raise or a re-raise with KK or AA PF. Everyone at this forum says always raise (or re-raise or re-reraise) with KK or AA PF. In my sit., how can I just call the 3bet? If the flop comes 278, I'm getting my money in on the flop right? Do any of you just call a 3bet with AA or KK PF? Or only against tight nits? I 4bet this guy here because I want him to just call with his QQ or maybe JJ and not be able to get away from it on a low flop.

kitaristi0

12-10-2006, 10:11 AM

Calling the 3-bet PF is just fine and if the flop is 872 I'm getting the money in the pot at a Hellmuthian velocity (ie real fast).

Imrahil

12-10-2006, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the 3-bet PF is just fine and if the flop is 872 I'm getting the money in the pot at a Hellmuthian velocity (ie real fast).

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this to disguise my hand and get value from QQ (if villain won't put all his chips in PF with QQ)?

Imrahil

12-10-2006, 02:34 PM

WOW. This was my biggest pot in 50NL and my first session. Villain here is 26/5 with a 0.23 PF aggression factor...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($49.90)
UTG ($98.35)
MP ($20.45)
CO ($32.55)
Button ($66.75)
Hero ($71.15)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Button calls $2, Hero raises to $8.5, 1 fold, UTG raises to $44.5, Button folds, Hero raises to $71.15, UTG calls $26.65.

Flop: ($144.80) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

Turn: ($144.80) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)

River: ($144.80) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $144.80

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Ac (flush, ace high).
UTG has Qd Qs (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins $144.80. 

Maybe you shouldn't fold KK PF...

Shaddux

12-10-2006, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he might be getting some good odds, but why put the money in if you have that feeling he has aces? no reason to put dead money into a put based on some statistics. you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this. I also am trying to learn to not 4 bet all in. try and catch a set on the flop. I hate the all in pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is pretty bad advice

poincaraux

12-10-2006, 05:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he might be getting some good odds, but why put the money in if you have that feeling he has aces? no reason to put dead money into a put based on some statistics. you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this. I also am trying to learn to not 4 bet all in. try and catch a set on the flop. I hate the all in pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is pretty bad advice

[/ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I PM'd clownslayer2, and he seems like a pretty reasonable guy who wants to learn. I explained a little bit about pot odds to him, using a toy game like "let's roll the dice .. I'll pay you $5 for every time it's 1,2,3,4,5 and you pay me $40 every time it's a 6. I'll lose most of the time, but make money over time."

Anyone know any threads with really good, clear, simple explanations of pot odds for me to point him at?

derosnec

12-10-2006, 06:50 PM

i posted this in a SSNL thread before on KK issue

ok, went through PT (25nl to 100nl), and here are my KK hands where it was all in preflop (Although some of those times I am the one putting in the 3rd raise)

This database only had 85,000 hands because I switched computers and didnt transfer hands from old one, so yeah small sample size

Opponent has 100bb stack or more

AA 6 times
AKo 1 time
AJo 1 time
QQ 1 time

Opponent is a short stack (alot of those on stars)

AKo 2 times
AQo 3 times
AJo 1 time
A9o 2 times
QQ 3 times
QTo 1 time
JJ 1 time
TT 1 time

kitaristi0

12-10-2006, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he might be getting some good odds, but why put the money in if you have that feeling he has aces? no reason to put dead money into a put based on some statistics. you cant lose what you dont put in the midddle, always remember this. I also am trying to learn to not 4 bet all in. try and catch a set on the flop. I hate the all in pre flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
this is pretty bad advice

[/ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I PM'd clownslayer2, and he seems like a pretty reasonable guy who wants to learn. I explained a little bit about pot odds to him, using a toy game like "let's roll the dice .. I'll pay you $5 for every time it's 1,2,3,4,5 and you pay me $40 every time it's a 6. I'll lose most of the time, but make money over time."

Anyone know any threads with really good, clear, simple explanations of pot odds for me to point him at?

[/ QUOTE ]

Theory of Poker.

Esmerelda

12-11-2006, 10:14 AM

I got ai this way with aces for sure. QQ is probable but would think about villains range first. There are definitely nitty players who only play AA or KK this way. I have never folded KK either but I have called with a curse a couple of times and been right. Someday I will lay em down too.

Esmerelda

12-11-2006, 10:41 AM

And also to protect AK and any other hand you might call a 3bet with. I would call a 3bet with AA ip once in while but I would rather do it with KK and it sure makes an players think twice about 3bet then c-bet when you call his 3bet and then push him ai on the flop with KK overpair.

Warteen

12-11-2006, 10:42 AM

Going to go with the "never fold KK preflop" camp on this one, with a caveat: If you're huge stacked (>2x buy-in) and so is he, it might be a worthwhile fold to the 5-bet because the times he has aces might make the money in the pot negligible.
But in this particular situation, I would never fold. AA vs. KK (and AK vs. AA) is the very definition of variance. Play good poker and you'll get your money back that you lost unluckily here. Some hands are just set up to stack someone.

4_2_it

12-11-2006, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Never fold KK for 100bbs > unless your playing vs. a 10/1/1 or something over 1k or so hands .

[/ QUOTE ]

As most regulars know, I am firmly in the it's never a huge mistake to call an AI for 100bbs or less with KK. Screw the math and everything else. You need a monster read to be able to put someone on AA pre-flop and I am never that certain in my reads.

Triggerle

12-11-2006, 02:02 PM

I have a small sample size (16k hands) at NL25. I was all-in pre-flop with KK 5 times and lost all 5 to AA. (In addition I lost a sixth time to a 75 BB stack with AQ. So at least there's one example of a relatively deep stack calling with anything other than KK.)

Since the last three times happened all in the last week I remember them well. All three villians had 3-bet light before and all three times I was the one putting them all-in. Two of these times the flop contained an Ace so maybe I could have gotten away a bit cheaper by just calling? I figured at the time that KK was a nice hand to counter their 3-betting, but now I think they might have set me up for exactly this situation.