QTs uncomfortable spot

[HitNRunPoster]

Villain doesn't have a lot of hands on him (30ish), but looks loose and aggressive stats wise, lol.

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $46.50
UTG+1: $81.05
CO: $55
hero: $49.25
SB: $30.35
BB: $30.34

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($2, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets $0.5</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $2.5</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($7.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets $5</font>, hero calls.

River: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($17.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB raises all-in $21.84</font>, hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $61.18

[Check_The_Nuts]

so basically, your hoping he's bluffing?

[DntRazeMePlz]

[ QUOTE ]
so basically, you're hoping he's bluffing?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Sir Winalot]

If you think your read is spot on then allright. We can't really help you with this hand though.

[Genz]

Don't call an all-in with TP unless you think he's bluffing. His bets add up to something like 2pair or better. Don't pay off. Fold the turn.

[HoldEmNewby]

Def. a tougher spot than your other post, but i think its still a clear fold. Its a limped pot and he is in BB so his range is quite wide, but looking at his play the chance that he's pushing with a worse hand or air is way too low to consider called this with TPOK:

PREFLOP:
3 limpers in the pot, he checks behind. So AK-AJ, AA-JJ,KQ I think are very unlikely. That said because he is in big blind his holdings can be almost anything else.

FLOP:
SB bets, he calls, you then reraise-he calls. What kind of hand does this? 56,a diamond flushdraw, 66-99,AT, KT,QT,T4,T3. I think 33-44,TT speak up when you reraise for fear of a scare card killing the action.

TURN:
Now he leads. Who does this: a 56 who improved to a draw with a pair, Tx taking a stab at it trying to knock a draw and maybe a better kicker off its hand, a slowplayed 2 pair whose scared of this straightening board, a flush draw who just gained some fold equity with the straightening board or who just gained a pair with the 5, a made straight?

River:
A push. Either a monster or a myth, what kind of hand is it? 5x,a full, a straight or a flopped 2 pair which now doesn't even beat TPOK or a missed flush draw. You've shown strength on the flush, you've called a large turn donk bet. I don't see him having the stomach to make the latter 2 moves often enough to warrent the call.

FOLD.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think your read is spot on then allright. We can't really help you with this hand though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, I've told you what I have available.

I feel that there are some stats that make this a default call after 30 hands, but it would have to be something like 50-60+/20-25+. PFA can be ignored for this purpose.

I can't remember the exact stats that I had available though, so I'm not sure what hte situation was.

What I'm looking for is a default play based on a {loosish/sorta aggro, but not quite sure yet} read.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So two questions...
1) Do you agree with what I've said in this response?
2) Fold the turn?

[SavageMiser]

The default play is to fold, no matter what villain's stats are after 30 hands. Otherwise you're tossing chips out the window.

You'll need some exceptional information or reads to call.

Fold turn and sleep like a baby.

[gimmetheloot]

OP: turn call is marginal, river is a snapcall. Will explain if needed.

[testaaja]

I'd make a bigger flop raise, something like $3.4 .
Turn is cool but river I fold. This looks like a really good hand to me. The only hands you beat are something like 9T JT.

[Check_The_Nuts]

OP, for me his stats would have to be 60+/20+/4+ with a high aggression frequency. Even then, I think its pretty thin. Your hoping he's doing this with a pocket pair/JT/T9/T8. For me his AF would have to be 60+.

Not sure if I like turn fold or river fold. Probably river.

I think I'm leaky against this type of player myself. So more opinions would be good....

[ImprovinNewbie]

fold up the turn to a set of 3's 4's or A2. im might be a nit though.

[gimmetheloot]

HNR, I thought I would explain my thoughts in the thread if thats ok....

OK, so basically SB is completing with almost any 2 here...

On the flop, when he leads, into 5 people, for 1/4 pot, we are looking at AT-T3, 34, 56, or diamonds, or a set).

You raise, and he calls. same range. I think he is going to 3bet his sets here, considering the action, and the fact that you think he is likely aggro. I weigh those very little now. 2 pair are likely to do the same, but may be a slight bit more wary, IMO.

He leads turn...IMO, most likely hands are now 34, T4s, T3s, or diamonds. I think we should fold the turn.

River comes, pairing board. Counterfiets all prev 2 pr hands, and diamonds missed.

56 got there, but I dont think he leads turn again with that particular hand...why...because it just feels wrong to me.

So IMO we are looking at a T, all of which we beat besides

AT/KT, whiffed diamonds, and c/f 2 pair hands.

I think we win making this call a very large % of the time.

This seems to be posted ^^^^ in a kind of awful getting-across manner, so if I need to re-explain something about my thoughts, let me know.


All, I do believe we should fold the turn, but as we got to the river, and the river card being what it was, I think we need to instacall. Again, turn is a fold.

[Alexey]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would make standard raise preflop. You have position, so punish open limper donk and exclude blinds (or at least define their hands).

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would make standard raise preflop. You have position, so punish open limper donk and exclude blinds (or at least define their hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I think you should take this for a limp and play a multiway pot here in position.

[Alexey]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think you should take this for a limp and play a multiway pot here in position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree if it was full ring, but 6-max I think it is a raise.

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think you should take this for a limp and play a multiway pot here in position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree if it was full ring, but 6-max I think it is a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, you are correct, I thought there was 2 limpers. yes, OP, please raise pf.

[Check_The_Nuts]

Gimme, i think 35dd fits villians hand perfectly. This is a decent spot to triple barrell because hero often has a weak hand (like QT/JT) or a busted draw (tho he'd probably fold turn). There's not many hands hero would call turn with and call the river bet with.

And your more likely to be on a big draw like 67dd, JQdd.Not preflop raising puts you in this spot BTW. Its obvious you have a crap ten because you would raise all your quality hands here (any pocket pair, overpair).

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I think you should take this for a limp and play a multiway pot here in position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree if it was full ring, but 6-max I think it is a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, you are correct, I thought there was 2 limpers. yes, OP, please raise pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

edit: PF is free, let it be.

Thanks a lot for your other response!

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
Its obvious you have a crap ten because you would raise all your quality hands here (any pocket pair, overpair).

[/ QUOTE ]

Alternatively I could have a set.

[Mercman572]

Results?

[Check_The_Nuts]

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Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

anything to add merc? I'm a bit of a fisherman....

[Chomp]

I'm raising pf here almost always.

If somehow I limp in (for example if I've raised a lot in previous few hands and I don't want to dilute the impact of my raises), it is on the strict basis that this is a marginal/speculative hand in an unraised pot and therefore something I am NOT wasting much/any more money on.

If approached in this way, you don't end up in the "uncomfortable" spot you ended up in.

[gimmetheloot]

chomp, dont worry about diluting your raises /images/graemlins/smile.gif

raise 4 in a row, and then fold 2, and repeat for about 20 mins. /images/graemlins/smile.gif you will get paid off for a long time.

[Chomp]

[ QUOTE ]
chomp, dont worry about diluting your raises /images/graemlins/smile.gif

raise 4 in a row, and then fold 2, and repeat for about 20 mins. /images/graemlins/smile.gif you will get paid off for a long time.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sure, I was just trying to think of a reason why I wouldn't be rr pf for the sakes of argument.

But your point is well taken.

[gimmetheloot]

OP: results?

[Chomp]

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OP: results?

[/ QUOTE ]


If villain hasn't filled-up here, I'll eat my shoes.

[Mercman572]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Results?

[/ QUOTE ]

anything to add merc? I'm a bit of a fisherman....

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played 50NL in over a year, and the games have certainly changed since then, so I don't know much about player tendencies anymore, but I'll give my 2 cents from a hand reading perspective.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time putting villain on a hand. The only thing I can put him on where this line makes sense is 56diamonds. Turn bet usually means a good hand, but could be some sort of stab. But combine with the river push, this looks like its a value push since it seems pretty clear that Hero seems to like his hand given action on previous 2 streets.

It's the Hand in The Cookie Jar Princible as I think of it: If a player takes a big, unsuccessful stab, they usually push a running made hand cause they now expect a call.

[HitNRunPoster]

[ QUOTE ]
OP: results?

[/ QUOTE ]

t9o