To aggressive ?

[James81]

Did I play to aggressive ? Or to aggressive on the wrong street ?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($9.23)
SB ($24.29)
BB ($2.52)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($4.11)</font>
UTG+1 ($5.13)
MP1 ($4.04)
MP2 ($1.48)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($20.69)</font>
CO ($11.91)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.3</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.30, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: ($0.67) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $0.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.75</font>, UTG calls $0.50.

Turn: ($2.17) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $0.25</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, UTG calls $1.75.

River: ($6.17) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $6.17

[Nuprin]

Against a shorty, that's how I play it every time. You could go for the re-raise pf to isolate, but there are so many people to act after you, i probably just call. I don't give the shortys a whole lot of credit for having great hands pf

[jdefoe]

I would probably just call turn if you knew villan made these small bets hoping to get raised. It looks like he was on a FD though

[Check_The_Nuts]

do you have tracker/pa hud dude? Full ring its kinda hard to comment, even at 5NL I bet there's some big nits in the mix.

This is fine at 6 max.

[James81]

No I have no kind of tool!

The only thing I use is my mind. I try to remind me, how often the play each round (loose or thight), are they raiser or caller, what do they do if someone raise after their bet, or which hand do they play to the showdown (only the nuts or second best hands) ?

I thought when I am up to 0.10/0.25 I will buy Pocker-Traker

[Check_The_Nuts]

worth it at even 5/10 IMO. I think I beat 5NL without it, but if you want to multitable its a must.

at .05/.10 its only 5 buy ins, which isn't really that much time. I think I easily made it back by then. You'll also want to be fairly familiar with the basics of VPIP/PFR/AF by 25NL.

[James81]

Oh ok... I think I will buy it sooner.

Thank you for your hint.

[Genz]

One more pair you played very aggressively.
I don't see the benefit of the turn-raise, really. If he is on a draw and has some kind of brain, he folds and you win nothing more. If he had some kind of pair, he will probably fold and you win nothing more. If he has a hand, he will call and you lose more than you had to. Basically, you will only be called by stronger hands or bad calling stations that love to chase or are very prone to calling down (and you had no read, had you?). So you usually have very bad reverse implied odds here. Meaning: you loose a lot when you are beat, but you win very little when you are ahead. There are still a lot of scare cards that can come on the river. And just calling could induce a bluff from a weaker hand. Don't stop someone from bluffing you when you're sure he is. But if you are called here and then bet into on the river, your PP is most likely beat. I would try to keep the pots smaller with my single pairs.

[Esmerelda]

Pf, fine. But I often 3bet to about 1, depends on what I think of villain's range and also the players yet to act. A call is fine IP from the CO, almost always 3bet oop.

Flop, as played I raise more. 1.25 in total or more. I figure I am ahead and I want to make that flush draw pay up, you will get a lot of action from A8 and random pairs here especially if you have been pushing people around for a bit. (My thinking would be quite different if I had repopped preflop and been called)

Turn, very villain dependent. These minbets are either a show of strength from a nit who doesn't know how to size his bets or a fd trying to block. With the overcard you really don't want to build a bigger pot here and you can't take a c/r so calling is better most of the time but if you trust your read, go for it.

River card isn't bad but not much value in betting (maybe A8 calls a smallish bet) and you can't stand a c/r so check behind is goot.

[MTBlue]

No, not in the least. You've got an overpair vs a shortstack. Your goal should be to get all the money in the middle. Raising the turn bet is a must. If you call, he hasn't made a mistake and is priced in to hit his AK or one of his five outs if he has a pair. In other words, you are theoritically losing a portion of the pot if you don't raise. You'll lose sometimes but that doesn't mean you played the hand badly.

P.S. Pokertracker isn't essential or even necessary to beat the game. Observing your opponents is much much better.

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
No, not in the least. You've got an overpair vs a shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's NL5 and the guy has 82 BBs in his stack at the beginning of the hand. I don't think he is short or desperate really. Just because OP might be running over the table with his huge stack, doesn't really mean he has opened his range or whatever. I would play this hand just as I would play every other hand.

[Dans Full]

Genz, you said you didn't like OPs raise on the turn, but my question is this...if villian is on an FD, don't you want to make him pay to draw out? We have no evidence the Q helped him, other than his ignorant mini raise. Personally, I treat these mini raises as checks unless I've seen something to suggest otherwise, and do whatever I would have done had he checked.

[Esmerelda]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, not in the least. You've got an overpair vs a shortstack.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's NL5 and the guy has 82 BBs in his stack at the beginning of the hand. I don't think he is short or desperate really. Just because OP might be running over the table with his huge stack, doesn't really mean he has opened his range or whatever. I would play this hand just as I would play every other hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

As of the turn you don't have an overpair either and I am not enthusiastically looking to go ai with a pair of tens when villain has shown some strength. My experience with NL5 is that there are a lot of passive players, when they start betting out it means they think they have a hand. I would only raise the turn if I had a read that told me villain was fos.

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
Genz, you said you didn't like OPs raise on the turn, but my question is this...if villian is on an FD, don't you want to make him pay to draw out? We have no evidence the Q helped him, other than his ignorant mini raise. Personally, I treat these mini raises as checks unless I've seen something to suggest otherwise, and do whatever I would have done had he checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two conflicting aims/concepts: One is, that you want to give drawing opponents bad odds to draw out on you. This concept advocates a raise here in case he is blocking to keep you from messing with his odds.
The other concept is pot control. There are many situations in NL where you have a holding that has showdown value but not for any price. So you want to keep the pot small.
The problem is how you balance those concepts. First, I think that a single pair often isn't worth to be protected in a way that escalates the pot quickly and can put your whole stack on the line. Another aspect is how sure you can be that your opponent really is drawing. If he actually isn't but has some other possibly weaker holding, you want to give him another opportunity to bluff you. If he has a stronger holding, you certainly want to avoid putting much more money in the pot.
My personal take on the subject is, that I'm willing to give up single pair hands when facing real aggression or am often willing to risk that an opponent draws out on me, when I can thereby control the pot size and see a SD a lot cheaper.

For more on this topic read EMcWilliams: 'Common actions and why we take them' (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5280435) and concepts 33 and 54 in No Limit Theory and Practice if you have that available.

[MTBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Genz, you said you didn't like OPs raise on the turn, but my question is this...if villian is on an FD, don't you want to make him pay to draw out? We have no evidence the Q helped him, other than his ignorant mini raise. Personally, I treat these mini raises as checks unless I've seen something to suggest otherwise, and do whatever I would have done had he checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two conflicting aims/concepts: One is, that you want to give drawing opponents bad odds to draw out on you. This concept advocates a raise here in case he is blocking to keep you from messing with his odds.
The other concept is pot control. There are many situations in NL where you have a holding that has showdown value but not for any price. So you want to keep the pot small.
The problem is how you balance those concepts. First, I think that a single pair often isn't worth to be protected in a way that escalates the pot quickly and can put your whole stack on the line. Another aspect is how sure you can be that your opponent really is drawing. If he actually isn't but has some other possibly weaker holding, you want to give him another opportunity to bluff you. If he has a stronger holding, you certainly want to avoid putting much more money in the pot.
My personal take on the subject is, that I'm willing to give up single pair hands when facing real aggression or am often willing to risk that an opponent draws out on me, when I can thereby control the pot size and see a SD a lot cheaper.

For more on this topic read EMcWilliams: 'Common actions and why we take them' (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=5280435) and concepts 33 and 54 in No Limit Theory and Practice if you have that available.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but this guy is by no means an authority on how to play poker. He's just some guy. As to the hand, YOU ARE GIVING UP A PORTION OF THE POT BY NOT RAISING. VILLAIN HAS PRICED HIMSELF IN TO HIT HIS 4-OUTER+. Okay, on the pot control side. We could call for deception and for pot control. This implies a river bet/or raise, assuming villain doesn't wake up. Secondly we need to show profit on the turn raise so we need to be ahead here a decent portion of the time (%50 is enough). Are we I don't know? It's player specific (and not a stat poker tracker tells you). The OP made a decision that he was ahead and raised. I suggest you try the following strategy sometime. You either raise or fold and every point in the hand. It may give you a better idea on where to raise and where to fold.

[BevillTheDevil]

on the flop id raise a little more but thats good enough, your rr didnt get him off his hand on the flop and now theres a higher card on the board so i would just call then on river i would call a small bet or check behind

would reraiseing pre here against a shorty be bad?

[Esmerelda]

I 3b here usually. Against certain nits or passive players who always limp I might call.