I hate spots like these

[Big Poppa Smurf]

I always get lost on the turn in spots like these, especially against short stacks. If I bet I'm committed to call his raise ai which he'll probably do with any piece of the board, so that isn't great. If I check, I can't really call unless he makes a small bet. So do I just check-fold here? Or should I open shove the turn?

How do these change if I have something like 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif? (or any flush draw without overs, this board is a bad example for that)

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Stack sizes:
UTG: $49.20
UTG+1: $63.40
MP1: $49.65
MP2: $48.85
MP3: $33.70
CO: $25.30
Button: $48
Hero: $66.10
BB: $77.85

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
5 folds, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $2.5</font>, BB folds, CO calls.

Flop: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($5.5, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $4</font>, CO calls.

Turn: T/images/graemlins/club.gif ($13.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets $12</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $12 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $13.5

[AaronOC]

open push the turn, the CO is short and you can only assume that the the aces and kings are good outs and you have 9 more diamonds to draw to. Plus he should fold any mid pairs to a push

[Antinome]

Sometimes I try pricing myself turn in if I think it will work.

Flop I'll C/RAI sometimes.

But really, this is pretty standard.

Edit: Turn combo pushes need a lot of FE to be +EV, and Idon't often see tight folds in the uNL, so I use them in moderation. Just think about how often your turn stackadonk gets called by TPGK.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I try pricing myself turn in if I think it will work.

Flop I'll C/RAI sometimes.

But really, this is pretty standard.

Edit: Turn combo pushes need a lot of FE to be +EV, and Idon't often see tight folds in the uNL, so I use them in moderation. Just think about how often your turn stackadonk gets called by TPGK.

[/ QUOTE ]

ant,

i know these spots are standard but i still can't handle them well against shorties. if you're going to make a small bet hoping to price yourself in if he shoves, isn't it best to just open shove?

check-folding here sucks hard and i hated doing it. i even typed in the chat "man i messed this one up" before i folded. however for reasons you mentioned open-shoving isn't that great either since when i get called i'll often be putting that money in bad.

[Antinome]

On pricing yourself in vs. maximizing FE with a turn push-

Any situation where you could price yourself in, you are dealing with remaining stack sizes 2-3 times the turn pot. In a game with reasonably bright players, it ought to be clear with a pricing bet that you have become committed to the pot and that you intend to put all your money in. So your bet should have almost as much fold equity as pushing your whole stack in, without putting your whole stack in. It's one of my applications of that 'Hammer of future betting' thing that Sklansky wrote about in NLTAP. Of course, versus morons, it won't work.

Further thoughts about this hand-

If I choose to bet it right out, I see no reason to bet a standard 'cbet' amount, whether that is 1/2,2/3,3/4, or 5/6 pot on the flop. I want them to cleverly notice I'm betting larger than the usual amount, put me on a big hand, and make a big fold based on that 'read'. So make a PSB. I may even edge over the pot a touch just to make it painfully obvious. There is no down side here. Even if called you will have put money in the pot with great equity against villian's range, and have an easier time getting it in if you hit the gin card on the turn.

[absoludicrous]

I agree with antinome here. When I flop big draws against shorties, I'm trying to get as much $ in as possible. I'm probably calling this turn bet too...

[Antinome]

I'm pretty sure calling here is a mistake.

[absoludicrous]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure calling here is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm on tilt right now.