25NL flushdraw vs. shortstack [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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Supwithbates

12-08-2006, 03:28 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($14.75)
BB ($5.50)
Hero ($24.60)
MP ($12.50)
Button ($25.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises to $1, MP calls $1, 2 folds, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.10) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
BB bets $4.5 (All-In), Hero calls $4.50, MP calls $4.50.

Turn: ($16.60) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP bets $4, Hero calls $4

On the flop the shortie pushed in immediately making me think it was a stop and go. I figured him for a low pocket pair at best, and possibly 2 high unpaired cards. Either way, I was likely to be a favorite on the flop with as many as 15 clean outs (18 vs. a low PP) and a gutshot straight draw to boot.

The problem I had with this hand was that I was not closing action. Because of this I had no real idea what the hand behind me could be holding (although I figured top pair after the flop with the way he smoothcalled, he'd push the set or two pair). He might also have an overpair.

On the turn he's giving me the potodds to call, I'm glad he didn't push, but I don't think laying this down here is correct getting 5:1 with the flush draw.

Looking back on the hand I don't really see any mistakes given my reads but my line looks passive and donkish and I hate committing so many chips on a draw before it hits. Any thoughts? Should I fold the hand on the flop despite my read that I'm good since I'm not closing action?

jively

12-08-2006, 03:35 PM

You have a lot of equity vs. a pair with your flush draw, gutshot, and 2 overcards. The way you played it was OK. You could maybe raise the flop, either to isolate vs. the all-in, or to get it all-in with the MP player.

The way it went, I think calling the turn is OK.

-Tom

Supwithbates

12-08-2006, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have a lot of equity vs. a pair with your flush draw, gutshot, and 2 overcards. The way you played it was OK. You could maybe raise the flop, either to isolate vs. the all-in, or to get it all-in with the MP player.

The way it went, I think calling the turn is OK.

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]
Turn came 8h, MP flipped up a donkish QcTs and BB flipped up 44 (oops, well I apparently was a 2:1 dog on the flop. Yay for running good!)

thac

12-08-2006, 04:11 PM

I would open-shove the turn. Put MP to a decision.

Bonesy

12-08-2006, 04:41 PM

You have a pretty #&$^$in good hand on the flop. Push it all in. MP is shortstacked too. If he wants to join in the fun, that is fine. If you knock him off TP or an overpair, great too. Your equity is large here. Pooooooooosh.

Supwithbates

12-08-2006, 04:48 PM

my thoughts were towards pushing that I was trying to keep one-pair type hands that I was drawing to beat in the hand since a showdown was inevitable. I didn't want to fold out top pair since I was going to eventually have to beat it to win the pot anyways so pushing allowed me to win the minimum or lose the maximum

Sir Winalot

12-08-2006, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would open-shove the turn. Put MP to a decision.

[/ QUOTE ]
Into an empty sidepot? Doesn't sound very smart to me..

Supwithbates

12-08-2006, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would open-shove the turn. Put MP to a decision.

[/ QUOTE ]
Into an empty sidepot? Doesn't sound very smart to me..

[/ QUOTE ]
This was also my thinking. I'm only getting paid if I hit, and I haven't hit yet, so I want to keep people around until I have a hand worthy of a showdown.

I honestly don't like pushing turn nor do I like raising flop, but check/calling all along seems donkishly passive and I hate giving other people initiative.

As it turned out MP was calling flop with something like 4% equity on the hand (my estimate but I don't have pokerstove on this computer) so I pretty much want him in because the only hand that helps us both is a queen, but that just stacks him more. If I can get a free river then I won't fold but he's put in almost half his stack on the flop already, unless he had QJ or something I don't see him folding river anyways.

This is why I hate the passive line: If I checked turn and he had pushed, I have to pay 7$ to win 23$ so I'm getting about 3.2:1 on the hand, not enough odds to chase if he's got KK-AA or a set. However, I didn't think he'd smoothcall hands that strong/vulnerable on a drawy board, so I had a really hard time putting him on anything but another draw or a donkishly played top pair type hand. This seems like a really tough spot OOP, I have good equity but poor reads and I feel like I could easily be trapped into making a BIG mistake here given my line. I'm not sure playing it more aggressively is good either because it allows my opponents to play perfectly, winning me the minimum and losing me the maximum (unless I suck out).

Of the three lines, I think that:
pushing flop>my line>calling flop, pushing turn>folding
Pushing flop allows me to play perfectly because vs. two sets I'm still about ~30% to win, but it does allow MP to get away with a marginal hand, and doesn't allow him to make a mistake.
I think it's close between smoothcalling flop and pushing, but since I'm OOP I'd rather push to see all 5 cards. If I had position I'd lean towards calling.