Work on mistakes: KK, how to define where I am?

[Alexey]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($42.10)
<font color="#C00000">BB ($50)</font> Villain is good, stats: 22/16/1.5
UTG ($54.15)
MP ($50.80)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($83.65)</font>
Button ($57.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1.
I raised 3BB here because I want action.
Flop: ($3.25) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2.3</font>, BB calls $2.30.

Turn: ($7.85) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3.85</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $11</font>, Hero ...?
So, he can have unlikely 3 or JJ. I can beat here AJ, QQ, TT-77.
Are these holdings really his range?
Can I fold here? (very hard)

[Thrahl]

Bet more on turn.

Your also losing to 99 as well as an oddly played AA.

Against an an known I'm Happy to get the money in here. But 1.5 is pretty passive and I doubt he is doing this with AJ/QQ. Turn check raise from passive villain = puke and fold.

[Genz]

Don't pick your raise sizes preflop on the strength of your hand. Observant player can pick up on this. Make your raises a standard size first in.

Against a good player you should check behind on the turn very often when you have position with a TP or Overpair to avoid just these check/raise situations. The flop isn't draw heavy so giving a free card doesn't hurt you really. So control the pot size and check behind.

Like this, it's difficult. Your opponent is quite tight. So you can rule out a 3 most likely. His AF is not too high. So a c/r bluff isn't the most likely possibility. The same goes for a c/r with a TP. He is more likely to lead the turn. You are probably behind here and you have to factor in another river bet. I think you got yourself raised out of a pot here.

[Leviathan101]

ugh this is a tough spot. I remember getting into a similiar spot with AA not too long ago.

He's not hugely passive, (1.5 is passive but its not THAT passive) but your turn bet is really small compared to the pot. Even some passive players will raise weak bets as bluffs (not many, but they exist)

How many hands do we have on this guy?

I think a fold is fine, but it's ugly. I can see a call and river revalute, but not really sure if thats a good line.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1.
I raised 3BB here because I want action.

[/ QUOTE ]
I raise 4BB because I wan't money. Pot flop, at least 3/4-pot on turn. As played, I would usually call and re-evaluate river.

[Genz]

I do not really get what there could be to reevaluate on the river. Only one of the remaining two Ks would change your situation dramatically. So you are basically calling his raise and pray for a check on the river or at least a not-so-big bet. Both is unlikely. So because I wouldn't want to call a big river bet anyway, I can save some more money on the turn, can't I?

[Alexey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $1.
I raised 3BB here because I want action.

[/ QUOTE ]
I raise 4BB because I wan't money. Pot flop, at least 3/4-pot on turn. As played, I would usually call and re-evaluate river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called. River was not king, he bet 20. Now what?
Question: what river cards are changing things (except K)?

[avfletch]

Bet more everywhere. Don't play your big hands slowly because you 'want action'. Play them fast because you 'want money'.

[Lizard King]

I still call 20 . I would be happy with a 3 on the river. you should bet more prf and pot the flop.

[darthspader]

I don’t know how qualified I am to answer your question, after all, I am just a lowly 25NL player, I really like most of what's being said here.

[ QUOTE ]
Don't pick your raise sizes preflop on the strength of your hand. Observant player can pick up on this. Make your raises a standard size first in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent advice. Don't lower your pf bet because you "want action". You know the drill, 4xBB if first in, +1BB for every limper. You say you wanted action, but by lowering your opening raise you invite inferior hands to catch up to you. You're playing 50NL, they're gonna give you action no matter what (sometimes even when you don't want "action"). Standard pf raise is 4xBB ($2.00), discounting it $0.50 is not going to encourage any more action than you would normally get, especially in cut-off on a 6max table.

[ QUOTE ]
He's not hugely passive, (1.5 is passive but its not THAT passive) but your turn bet is really small compared to the pot. Even some passive players will raise weak bets as bluffs (not many, but they exist)

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, very observant advice. Even tight players do have a modest range. And, because you didn’t open for the standard raise, your bet size opens his range even a little more. AJ pays you off, Queens pays you off.

[ QUOTE ]
I raise 4BB (pf) because I want money. Pot flop, at least 3/4-pot on turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Your weak bets induce raises. I mean, come on, you’ve got pocket Kings, man up. Bet ‘em like you got ‘em, on all streets (pf, flop, turn, riv). That's how you define where you are at, proper bet sizes.

[ QUOTE ]
Only one of the remaining two Ks would change your situation dramatically. So you are basically calling his raise and pray for a check on the river or at least a not-so-big bet. Both is unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spot on. I hate to sound like a broken record, but, because you didn’t raise properly pf, or on the flop, or on the turn you have no idea where you’re at. With Kings in the hole you should be thinking pf 'Outside of an Ace on the flop, this is going to the felt', and proper bet sizes get you there the best way. There’s two ways of thinking about this. You do have pocket Kings (which can sure feel like a monster hand), but, it is still only 1 pair. The river cards that change the whole texture of the board are a heart, Ace, and IMO 10,J,Q. Since you called the turn bet, outside of only the Ace or the heart, you gotta make any crying call. Like you said “I can beat here AJ, QQ, TT-77”, add to that AK, and all these hands are within his range with the underbet pf. I can’t endorse a fold on any street except for riv when an Ace or a heart falls. Just too much M.U.T.B. syndrome for me otherwise. I think you did well by calling on the turn, you’re half way to a well-deserved pot. But Genz is 100% correct, with the underbets, on all streets, with the “action” you got….
[ QUOTE ]
I think you got yourself raised out of a pot here.

[/ QUOTE ]
As was also said previously though outside of an [ QUOTE ]
oddly played AA

[/ QUOTE ] I’d say Check Call the River.

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not really get what there could be to reevaluate on the river. Only one of the remaining two Ks would change your situation dramatically. So you are basically calling his raise and pray for a check on the river or at least a not-so-big bet. Both is unlikely. So because I wouldn't want to call a big river bet anyway, I can save some more money on the turn, can't I?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the problem here is that hero has been under representing his hand and villain might be making a play because of hero's apparent weakness.

[Alexey]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the problem here is that hero has been under representing his hand and villain might be making a play because of hero's apparent weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can argue that betting this way accomplishes two goals:
1) If I am behind (if he has 3 or JJ), then I am minimizing losses.
2) If I am ahead, then he is making mistake by betting with weaker hand.

[gimmetheloot]

Alexesy, never, ever fold here, you are ahead ~99% of the time. Your turn bet was so weak, he likely thought he could take you off of your likely weak hand. Call, and shove over his river lead, so long as the river isnt a J, or bet if checked to.

[Alexey]

[ QUOTE ]
...Your weak bets induce raises. I mean, come on, you’ve got pocket Kings, man up. Bet ‘em like you got ‘em, on all streets (pf, flop, turn, riv). That's how you define where you are at, proper bet sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]
How to avoid paying off to monsters then? If I bet hard I am pot committed!

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...Your weak bets induce raises. I mean, come on, you’ve got pocket Kings, man up. Bet ‘em like you got ‘em, on all streets (pf, flop, turn, riv). That's how you define where you are at, proper bet sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]
How to avoid paying off to monsters then? If I bet hard I am pot committed!

[/ QUOTE ]

is there some reason, that on this board, with this action, and your hand, that you arent willing to play for stacks?

[Sir Winalot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...Your weak bets induce raises. I mean, come on, you’ve got pocket Kings, man up. Bet ‘em like you got ‘em, on all streets (pf, flop, turn, riv). That's how you define where you are at, proper bet sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]
How to avoid paying off to monsters then? If I bet hard I am pot committed!

[/ QUOTE ]
Sometimes you will pay off monsters, but this won't happen very often. The other times when your villains have weaker hands you maximize your wins which will outweight the infrequent losses to monsters.

[Alexey]

[ QUOTE ]
is there some reason, that on this board, with this action, and your hand, that you arent willing to play for stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, board is not so scary, although he could have A3s or JJ or 99 very easy. But action is really scary. If he had AJ or QQ he would raise the flop or bet turn. But when I see turn check-raise, I immediately smell very probable monster. Add here villains relative passivity and it seriously argues for fold.

[thac]

1.5 aggression isn't overly passive. And I don't think he defends his blind with A3s. Because of your weak bets, he could think you have a weaker J, so his AJ is good in his eyes. What was the river? If it was a blank, I call his river bet. If he has JJ/99/AA, so be it. I think you're ahead here a lot.

[Thrahl]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be happy with a 3 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

A 3 on the river changes nothing. Youre still losing to all the hands you were behind on the turn (JJ,AA,99,3X).