how many buy ins to move up

[clownslayer2]

I have been playing 10NL for the past week...put in 20 just for fun to get a feel on BODOG, and have logged just over 5000 hands. I have 223 and was wondering if it was time to move up to 25NL?

[Imrahil]

Wait for $500.

[Pokey]

You can start taking shots at $25NL when you've got $250 and when your skill level is sufficient to handle $25NL. Usually, bankroll grows faster than skill level. The most frequent "shooting stars" are the folks who buy in for the first time, run hot, think they are poker gods, move up too fast, continue to run hot, continue to move up, hit their first downswing, and die a horrible death.

When you're ready to take a shot at $25NL, you won't have to ask anybody else if you're ready to take a shot at $25NL. You'll just know it's time.

(Hint: it will come when you can definitively say that you are beating your current level to the point where you are no longer afraid of your opponents.)

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

Make sure you have at least 30x what you're going to buy in for. I personally like to buy in for half the amount of the maximum buy in.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[Imrahil]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally like to buy in for the maximum buy in so i can maximize my monies$$



[/ QUOTE ]

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I personally like to buy in for the maximum buy in so i can maximize my monies$$



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[/ QUOTE ]

I agree (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=microplnl&Number=7964709) .

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

We've had plenty of these debates before.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[kaz2107]

and it is clearly the consensis of 2p2 that not buying in for the full amount is an unnesisary (sp) leak in n e ones game who is beating the level they play

PLEASE dont give new comers to the forum bad advice.
if u want to play with 50 bbs for some weird reason that is fine but dont advise new comers to have the same mistake

edit for being a retard in english /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Unknown Soldier]

I cannot see an advantage to buy in for 50bbs as opposed to 100. Its not short enough to be short-stacked and you will lose alot of value. The only reason I can think of is that you don't want to risk the money. In that case play one level down.

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

MAX buy in does work, however I like to buy in for half for certain reasons.

a)You don't make a bunch of loose or bad plays just because you have alot of money in front of you

b)When you hit a "cold" deck you don't keep loosing max buy in after max buy in.

c)If you lose your buy in you can buy back in a few more times instead of once or twice because of the max buy in. Remember it's a cash game not a tourament, you can buy back in, so use it. Just because somebody put a bad beat on you in a cash game doesn't mean you can't buy back in.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

Also, some people just feel and play better at half the buy in instead of max.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[Unknown Soldier]

a) - this can be fixed if you work on your game. small pots - small hands, big bots - bog hands. I imagine thats the advice there.

b) - you are afraid of losing too much money. Move down limits

c) what? I think this is a money issue again. You can buy back in for the full amount just as easily if you have the BR for it.


This is the bottom line. You are losing value because you are afraid of losing money. Thats all you have really said.

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

I'm not afriad of losing money, if I was, I wouldn't be playing poker. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I think everybody just has a different strategy and likes to look at things different ways. I'm not defending the MAX, the HALF or the MIN buy in. Whatever you feel comfortable playing you should play. Sometimes I will buy in for the MAX and sometimes I'll buy in for the HALF. It depends on the game.

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[Unknown Soldier]

I think you're making a mistake, but there you go. Nothing more to say really. Gl with it!

[checkmate36]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I will buy in for the MAX and sometimes I'll buy in for the HALF. It depends on the game.


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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Did you say that you did read the FAQ?

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

Okay so let's say you sit down in a game where the MAX buy in is $200 right? Everybody has $50 or less at the table. Why am I going to buy in for $200?

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[Unknown Soldier]

Because there's no reason not to.

[Unknown Soldier]

what if someone triples up?

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

Have you ever watched GSN High Stakes Poker? Why is it some of the professionals buy in for the million dollar max, some buy in for half, and some buy in even less?

Why didn't they all buy in for $1,000,000?

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[Unknown Soldier]

I cant answer that because I dont understand why they play that game (it cant be v. +EV). I can only think of image. I.e. to make them famous so when they walk into a casino, millionaire fishes take shots at them. Or ego maybe? Idk I think these players are smarter then that.

[SirNeb]

I personally would have a ton of problems playing shortstack because you always relying your all-in and people making mistakes to call you. The amounts of "moves" you can make is so limited.

I feel if you are playing shortstack, you are playing the cards, not the player. This is what Pokey was getting at, that constrains you more ways than you can imagine. I'm not saying it's not profitable. I've seen the effects of shortstacks. More often or not, I'm trying to dodge shortstacks with my deep stacks. They are more willing to go all in with TP and you can't really bluff them with normal ways. Usually a min raise would get them to fold. Of course, they generally will lose more if they try to bluff than big stack would. Their fold equity is pretty crappy if the other person has on a draw or already has a hand.

Back to the poster, ya if you feel you are ready go ahead and take a stab at it. But if you have problems dealing with tilts and variance, I would wait until you are better at handling that before you hit a higher limit. Those things are the #1 reason to lose a bankroll.

[Unknown Soldier]

50bbs is not shortstacked

[jmillerdls]

I like to move up when I have 10 buyins, and move down when I'm down to 8...haven't run into any problems with this.

[55555]

lots of bankroll info in 'Essential Selection of uNL'.

Most people say you need 30 buy in's, i think that is excessive for micro stakes though. I have been using pokeys bankroll advice, taking shots after i have 20 buy ins. I started playing $10nl and worked my way up to $50nl without any problems. At 50NL I was able to survive a 12 buy in downswing recently and had my bankroll restored within the week. I will increase the buy ins as i move up though. I won't take a shot at $100nl till i have 25 buy ins.

To see a more aggressive bankroll approach, check out aba20's 'in the well' posting.

[IsaacAsimov]

20 BI of the higher limit is a limit switch for me. Switch down when you have 20 BI of the lower limit. So from NL 10 to NL 25 that would be 500$. I am thinking about trying aba's approach though.

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever watched GSN High Stakes Poker? Why is it some of the professionals buy in for the million dollar max, some buy in for half, and some buy in even less?

Why didn't they all buy in for $1,000,000?

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[/ QUOTE ]
My guess ...

Some people like Barry Greenstein are skilled at playing short stacks. Short stacking takes a certain skill set, however most people don't have them. Also the relatively looser players that we frequently see may not be to adjust.

I've read about people playing at the party 2k nl that are shortstacks and have high win rates. So it's possible to win shortstacking, however chances are that most of us are not that type of player nor is this necessary at micro stakes.

And of course, many on HSP are not regular cash game players but come from LOL donkaments land where having a 20 bb stack is a way of life and thus feel more at home playing like that.

Cliff notes: You flopped a set and only won 1/4th of what you should. Sucks to be you.

P.S. With only 1/2 a buyin, playing small pairs for set value becomes crap. In fact, calling a 6x bb raise would already be unprofitable. That's bad since sets are one of the bigger weapons in uNL.

[MadMike]

Ok, I'm going to say it and probably get flamed for it... If you have a regular job, and feel you can beat the players at the next level, then move up when you feel like it.

The 20 or 30 buy-in rule is to keep yourself from going busto through variance even if you are a winning player. If you aren't a winning player, you'll go busto no matter how big your bankroll. If you are a winning player, and have a poker 'bankroll' of $211, but a normal job and enough in the bank to pay your bills and stuff, then the whole bankroll argument is pretty much moot. If you bust out, you'll just reload again instead of blowing the $100 on booze the next weekend.

Bankroll consideration should be taken seriously if:
1) You're a pro, and your ability to make a living depends on your bankroll- and this is your only source of income
2) If, for whatever reason, you're unable or unwilling to reload if you bust out.

Ok, I've said it.

[IsaacAsimov]

I disagree with your mind set. I like having good bankroll management, even though I could theoretically reload to play at a micro limit. I think that it is also a psychological help when you're in a downswing and you know that you have already relaoded your bankroll twice in the past half year, for example. Furthermore, I like Poker to be self financing. If I were to think that I could just reload anytime, that would be a bit like gambling for me (I know poker is gambling, but the way we play shouldn't be gambling, it should be + EV).

[kbrat]

I also think 20BIs is an unecessary measure and this might be because I'm an inexperienced n00b, but unless you are incapable of moving down if you suffer a downsing, I recommend taking shots at 10-15BIs.

I started playing NL25 at the beginning of november with a rather smallish $200 BR, I played a little from time to time, studied a lot, and took a few shots at NL50 once I hit 400. On the 27th of nov my BR was at 450, and I decided to make the move to 50NL. 1 week later My BR was at 900, and I took my first 100NL shot... lost 2 BIs and moved back down. Built my BR up to 1300, and took my second shot. This time I was break even over 2k hands, but was confident I was better than most of the guys there, and now have a BR of 3k and am about to take shots at 1/2.

You may argue that I am running good, there is no doubt about it, but if you table select properly, you can easily beat the closest limits to your own. It is just a matter of adapting to the playing style and of course the amounts of money in play. I can guarantee that there are huuuge fish at nl100, and I am positive I will be seeing similar players at 200NL, which is why i'm taking a shot at 15BIs. I am not necessarily better than the .50/1 regulars and there will probably be a severe gap between the 1/2 regulars and me, but I believe I am better than the majority of players at NL100, which is enough to make a very nice winrate.

Hope this helps.

[Spleen]

[ QUOTE ]

(Hint: it will come when you can definitively say that you are beating your current level to the point where you are no longer afraid of your opponents.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Da troof

[MadMike]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with your mind set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people probably do, but I just think focusing on bankroll managment at NL25 and below is kind of silly if you have a regular job. Focus on your play, the bankroll at this level is nothing if you're making $30K+ and have some money to eat out on weekends.

I also think too many people use bankroll managment as a way to 'promote' themselves to the next level without really delving deep into their games to see if they belong there. Ooohhh. I've gone from $500 to $1000 playing NL25, I guess I should move up to NL50, etc...

Move up if you think you're ready and if the stakes at the next level are comfortable. Move down if you're not sure that your play is up to snuff at the level you're at. As long as the poker bankroll is a minor fraction of your overall $$$, I don't know that it needs to get any more complex than that.

This is all just IMHO from someone who makes good money outside of poker, has never had to reload since starting with a PSO promotion a year ago, and is still playing NL25 because I'm still not positive that I don't suck at poker.

[HoldemPokerPlyr]

Haha so who brought this topic back from the dead?

-HoldemPokerPlyr

[munkey]

congrats kbrat on the moving upaments
where do you play BTW?
I actually suspect 20 buyins may not be enough to weather even the worst downswings at one's current limit. Although 95% time we will be o.k. there's a 5% chance we will go totally busto.

Of course at the lower limits it easy to restock our bankroll but further up SSNL+ it takes longer though dropping down does further reduce the risk.

I don't know if it's only because I've experienced 10 buyin downswings and regularly 4 buyin swings +/- and have also run BReven over 10k hands -maybe I just suck at poker /images/graemlins/grin.gif but the more I play the more I respect the 'ol roll and more think 20+ buyins are required.

[/bankroll nitiness]

Not to say you can't be semi-aggressive in moving up I took my NL100 shot @1500 and won't be retaking until my roll is 3k and more importantly I'm ready.

(Actually I played a little more NL100 today FWIW so it's not B/W what I do.)


just my rambling 2p