QUIZ: leading on the flop. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

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Pokey

12-07-2006, 08:00 PM

AJ has inspired me with yet another in a long line of clever quiz posts (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=8313278&an=0&page=0#Post 8313278), so I've decided to try and create one of my own. AJ's most recent quiz dealt with when to c-bet; mine is a variation on that theme. Instead of c-betting, I'm asking when you think it is correct to bet/steal on the flop when you were NOT the preflop aggressor.

You just sat down at a $50NL table -- you have no reads and no table image yet. Effective stack sizes are 100 BBs. In the following hands,

- Should you bet the flop or check the flop?
- What is your plan after you bet or check?
- Explain your reasoning.

(NOTE: I am not recommending these preflop plays as optimal. For some players, they will seem very awkward. I myself would not play each of these hands in this way preflop. Still, they are contrived situations that help us to understand how we can proceed on the flop. Also, I realize that different table images and opponent styles will lead to different responses; here, we're looking for your "default play" with no reads and no table image to burden you. Consider this a very basic start to understanding flop play when you were not the preflop aggressor.)

Hand #1:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?

----------

Hand #2:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?

----------

Hand #3:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.75, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?

----------

Hand #4:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.25, four players)
Hero...?

----------

Hand #5:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero checks.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.25, four players)
Hero...?

----------

Hand #6:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, one fold, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2, four players)
Hero...?

----------

Hand #7:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $1.5, three folds, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.75, two players)
Hero...?

----------

Hand #8:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...?

----------

Hand #9:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...?

----------

Hand #10:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero raises to $2, two folds, BB calls, UTG raises to $6, Hero calls, one fold.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($14.25, two players)
UTG checks, Hero...?

thac

12-07-2006, 08:19 PM

1: Check, if anything but the 4/images/graemlins/club.gif comes, I'm done with the hand.

2: Check, you have a decent draw to the nuts and you don't wanna get blown off of it by getting check-raised. If you don't hit on the turn and it checks through, you can bet to hopefully take it down.

3: Bet, UTG showed weakness by limping, and BB checked his option, I doubt we're looking at a strong K, and unless UTG has 33 or 66, we'll take this down most of the time.

4: Bet, we have a big hand, and there's an ace and a diamond/straight draw on the board. We wanna get as much money in as we can, and there are a couple ways that villains could've connected with that board. Assuming a safe turn, I'm firing again here for about pot size, maybe a little less.

5: Check, there's 3 other people in the pot and you have T high, I don't see all three folding. I'm check/folding this unless I hit an 10 on the turn, and even then, I won't call a huge bet.

6: Bet, it's likely that villains that limped have a smallish pair or small suited connector. If you're called, you still have outs to hit your gutshot/trips. If you don't hit on the turn if you're called, check and hope it checks through.

7: Check, he took the lead preflop, and you've repped a small pair. If villain checks behind on flop, I'd fire turn in hopes that he has a TT-99 hand.

8: Bet, there's a draw on the board and only two other aces in the deck. If I'm called here, I'm done with the hand unless I hit a 4.

9: Bet, you have a very vulnerable hand and there is a draw on the board. I'm looking to play this aggressively, but cautiously (if that makes sense). If I'm called on the flop, I'm still leading on any non-diamond, non-7 turn.

10: Bet, you can't improve your hand and you wanna find out as soon as possible how good your hand is. He limp-reraised you preflop so it could be a big pair or it could be AK. If he check-raises me, I instamuck.

yad

12-07-2006, 08:25 PM

These don't really get into the most important situation, which is when you are HU OOP against the PFR. But here goes:

1. Check. Will consider making a play on turn/river if no diamond falls.

2. Bet.

3. Bet.

4. Bet due to relative position.

5. Not interested 4-way.

6. Not interested 4-way.

7. Not interested.

8. Check but will call a bet or bet if checked to on turn/river.

9. Bet. Make money.

10. Usually check behind. This is WA/WB. I will bet turn if checked to, or call a bet on turn. River is feel dependent.

orange

12-07-2006, 08:30 PM

hand 1: check, little FE, tons of hands will come along, i say just give up now. had it been a bit more dry i like betting more often.

hand 2: i like betting here. lots of better hands will fold, pps and the like, you have position with a hidden draw and a few backdoor outs (and can control pot size/action on later streets), your opponents stink of weakness, etc.

hand 3: well, i typically raise PF, but i like to bet in this spot. dry board, can get worse hands to fold, etc. i like betting 55 in this spot due to the vulnerability of the hand. had we had something like TT, id be a bit more inclined to check. i also like narrowing the field a bit.

hand 4: i probably check due to relative position. let UTG bet, trap some dead money and then c/r. leading isnt bad either. i think this one is close and depends.

hand 5: i would check. you see alot of hands here that will call your bet (77,etc) and stuff like that. its a dry board, but there are alot of players here.

hand 6: i think checking is best here. alot of hands will call a bet, youll see hands like pair+draw like QT or something like that that will call here. too many players for me to bet here i think.

hand 7: i would raise pf, open limping is the suck. sometimes a lead on this type of board is okay as you can definitely get better hands to fold, but your hand is faceup vs. good opponents (you rarely have any big hand here, and your range is so favored toward a pp). i would prob just c/f.

hand 8: again with the [censored] limping pf. RAISE HERE PF or fold. limp calling here is lame as hell. i would check and see what CO does/see how many players call. if he checks, thats fine, no need to go apeshit with this hand anyways.

hand 9: clever. i would probably lead/3bet here. unless you were very very very certain that CO would bet. again, limp calling is bad.

hand 10: check is okay here. your folding better hands never here. you might consider betting for protection, but i think that pot control > protection in this spot.

after reading some of these again, we really need to clear the open limping out of our game. sure there are sometimes situations that is okay, but almost always, you should be raising when entering a pot. open limping is baaaaaaaad. limp/calling is even worse. okay.

Crimsonjade

12-07-2006, 08:34 PM

H1 - I am check/folding here. I don't think anyone that I can beat will call me and I expect to get repopped here enough to make me fold.

H2 - I bet the flop, bet the turn and check the river. I won't be calling anything other than a minraise on the flop and turn. I do this because if I hit my hand an Ace will probably pay me off.

H3 - Check/fold. I do not have enough outs and I will not be getting a King to fold very often here.

H4 - I am making a pot sized bet here and hoping to get action in the form of a call of reraise from an Ace. I won't mind going to felt here and now. I don't really want to let them draw cheaply here now that I have hit my set.

H5 - Check/fold. I am in a four way pot and I missed the board pretty good. Overcards are calling me down here on my bet.

H6 - I am going to check/fold here. Check/calling is tempting, but I feel I am WA/WB here making it not worth it.

H7 - Check/fold. OOP and too many ways he hit his hand and it not letting it go.

H8 - Tempting to bet the Ace, but with the CO behind me I check/fold.

H9 - Bet here, 3bai. We hit it and we hit it good. No use letting them draw to the flush.

H10 - The pfrr tells me JJ+. I am expecting a c/r here. I check and evaluate the turn, though likely to fold.

gumpzilla

12-07-2006, 08:40 PM

Haven't looked at other responses.

1: Check. Way too much for people to find to float you with here.

2: Sometimes bet, sometimes check. I lean towards betting, particularly since you have position.

3: No raises and no bets suggest a lack of interest in this pot to me, and the board is pretty dry. I bet. Maybe a 6 looks me up but the pot is small still. Checking down after that probe.

4: Bet bet bet bet bet. Especially at micro levels an A will rarely lay down, flush draws are possible, and you're not going to get much from anything other than those hands anyway.

5: OOP with no hopes of improving to anything good and 3 other opponents = easy check/fold.

6: Again, too many players and not much chance of going anywhere good. 9's are like our only cleanish outs, we're OOP, and this board has a very good chance of connecting with random broadway cards that people might limp. Check/fold.

7: This depends on the opponent, and I'd go back and forth on it. Sometimes I'll bet, sometimes I'll check. That flop is terrifying unless they really hit it, so if they don't drop right away I'm done.

8: This is one of the more interesting ones. The reverse implied odds look pretty bad here. I would check, and if CO leads and it's folded to me I might call one street. If CO checks behind on the turn, I'd probably call the odd river bet, figuring he was just probing the flop. Two barrels probably means the real deal.

9: Sometimes I will lead here to pump the pot against the AK's and AQ's of the world. But this wouldn't be a bad spot to let CO cbet, either. If I did let CO cbet, I'd probably lead all turns. Try and get the money in.

10: Usually I'm checking behind. A's and K's give you pause, but that's it. Given a normal 3-betting range, betting here will frequently fold AK, which you beat, and get you looked up by JJ+/AQ. Not so great. Play this one WAWB, with complications introduced if A or K falls along the way.

cov47

12-07-2006, 08:54 PM

1) Check, with the intent of folding pretty much always.

2) Check. I'd like to see a free card with the gutshot/running spade possibilities. I don't think a bet takes this down very often and a check raise from UTG would not surprise me. On the turn I'm probably folding to a bet or checking again unless I improve.

3) Bet. I probably have the best hand and need to protect it. If I'm called or raised I assume I'm beaten and I'm done.

4) Bet. I hope to get raised by one player and three bet him, or extract a lot of cash from several callers. If we're still playing on the turn, I'm betting again, with the bet size depending on how the flop action went/what the turn is.

5) Check. Sometimes I'll bet with nothing on a raggy board like this, but not from the BB in a 4 handed pot. If it somehow gets checked through maybe I'll take a stab on the turn.

6) Check and see what develops. I'd like to see the turn if it's free or cheap. I'm probably not ahead now, and even if I am, the field has a ton of outs. If I bet and get called/raised I'm playing a marginal hand OOP.

7) Check, intending to fold whenever he bets. Betting here might fold a better hand if he has an underpair to the board, but I think it's far more likely I'm behind.

8) Bet. CO will generally let me know if he has a better ace. This is the only bet I'm putting in.

9) Bet. Now that I have two pair I'm assuming I'm ahead and would 3-bet a raise or bet again on a safe turn if called. I prefer betting here to trying to check-raise because I don't want to give a free card to a diamond draw.

10) Absent a read I guess I'm check/folding. He's limp reraising preflop and checking this flop? Seems like he wants me to donate a few more bucks to his AA.

jdefoe

12-07-2006, 08:55 PM

H1: 3rd pair, 3 diamonds, 3 opponents, your hand is weak, so i check, taking the free card, and hope to stack your opponents.

H2: 3 players, you have nothing, and an ace came out, I hate bluffing when there's an ace out and multiple opponents, so i check.

H3: Board that is semi to uncoordinated, your 5's may be best here, so I bet.

H4: Coordinated board with an ace (likely your opponent was holding one), so I bet into him hoping for a raise

H5: You have nothing, multiple opponents, i check

H6: 4 players, dangerous board, middle pair, i check

H7: Terrible board, I c/f

H8: I check to pfr with TPWK, to see what he does. If he bets big, i'm done, if he checks, I bet turn

H9: coordinated board, a hand with bottom pair can be counterfeited, so I def bet here

H10: I bet here, if i get called or raised, I'm done with the hand

Imrahil

12-07-2006, 08:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
H6: 4 players, dangerous board, middle pair, i open fold

[/ QUOTE ]

ticks

12-08-2006, 11:36 AM

I have not read any other replies.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #1:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...checks.
The flop missed us completely.
The two villains could call you with a diamond draw, straight draw, a king, a set...
Many villains like to play draws passively.
If a villain has a king here, he might be reluctant to bet himself, but more than ready to call you down.
If you bet here you are essentially on a pure bluff, but you are not likely to succeed in a multiway pot.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #2:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...checks.
We have a free 4-out draw to the stone cold nuts, which I am happy to take.
Sooo many villains play any ace, and play it weak if they have a weak kicker.
And wouldnt it be wonderful if we hit our draw,
and someone was slowplaying a set?

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #3:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.75, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...bets.
The flop is fairly dry, and we may even have the best hand.
If we get a caller, I will fold if he donks turn.
If villain checks, I check behind, putting him on a weak king or better.
I will fold to a substantial river bet, especially if the turn or river is A, 2 or 7.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #4:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.25, four players)
Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...bet duh.
We have a set, a beautiful flop and multiple villains gagging to pay us of.
If we get two callers and turn is a diamond, I will check, see what odds we are offered, and hope to fill up on the river.
An argument can be made for a check raise here, as we can trap multiple callers when UTG cbets.
However, then we play our hand face up, and decrease our chance of getting someone's stack.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #5:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero checks.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.25, four players)
Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...checks, planning to fold.
We have nothing, we are oop in a multiway pot, this is a no-brainer.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #6:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, one fold, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2, four players)
Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...checks, planning to fold to significant action.
We have some sort of draw, but 4 of our outs(J) are likely to a split.
And if not we are not likely to get paid of big time.
If we spike a T any J beats us.
The only card I would be happy to see would be a 9.
And even then we could be up against a better hand (JT).
A bad spot for a semibluff.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #7:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $1.5, three folds, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.75, two players)
Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...check folds.
Flop is EXTREMELY likely to have hit villain.
Our hand is worthless on a flop like this.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #8:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...checks, planning to spike a 4.
If we bet here, worse hands fold and better hands call.
If no one shows any interest on the flop or turn, I throw in a bet.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #9:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...?

----------

[/ QUOTE ]...bets.
Again, an argument can be made for a check raise, but I prefer to bet out.
We are playing against unknowns so we dont know if CO will cbet.
Also we are more likely to get weak aces and draws to tag along if we bet out.

[ QUOTE ]

Hand #10:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero raises to $2, two folds, BB calls, UTG raises to $6, Hero calls, one fold.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($14.25, two players)
UTG checks, Hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]
...bets 9 or therabouts, and will not put another dime in.
This is a bad flop for our hand.
We should give an unknown credit for JJ+/AK here.
So we take a stab at the pot, just in case he has AK.

Archon_Wing

12-08-2006, 12:02 PM

1.) No, multiway pot with plenty of reverse implied odds. Won't invest more into here.

2.) No, I have position and free card is nice. Don't want to fold people out when on a draw. Will bet if straight hits, otherwise c/f

3.) Don't really know. I'd just check here too. Nothing exciting here. c/f

4.) It's a set. PSB to price people for the flush draw. Another PSB on the turn.

5.) Too many players. c/f

6.) Bet 1.25. It's possible they missed. Probaly give up if called or raised

7.) Awful board that can only help villian. OOP c/fold.
8.) $6 and check/call reasonable bets on turn and river given non scary boards. Aiming for a showdown

9.) Bets $6. This is a strong holding. Another 2/3rd pot on the turn.

10.) Check and try to take this to a showdown.

Ra_

12-08-2006, 12:06 PM

1. no
2. no
3. Maybe, I could bet this one but with absolutley no reads i probaly check. The board is dry and it looks like it missed everyone.
4. no, This is a good spot for a flop c/r because raiser acts imeditly after you, and you could trap some other callers in between.
5. no way
6. no way
7. no
8. no
9. Yes, and 3bet all-in
10. WA/WB, easy check.

I answered no to alot of these. #9 seemed like the only obvious lead to me, and I think you could make a case for a c/r. but i wouldn't do it.

Ra_

12-08-2006, 12:27 PM

After reading the others, I kinda suprised at how many are betting #10. I don't see what this accomplishes.

I kinda felt weak tight after answering no to so many, maybe i should be betting #3 into complete unknowns. I would ussualy bet any 2 here as long as I knew that the other 2 weren't passive calling stations. Also If I do bet #3, I am firing again on turn.

CaptVimes

12-08-2006, 12:33 PM

Giving this a try to hopefully learn something. Don't take answers too seriously as I don't have much experience. I play mostly NL2 and some NL10 so that's the experience I draw my conclusions from.

Hand #1
Check behind even though I probably have best hand. Only have one usuable 4 out and a backdoor straight draw. Too many people that hit this flush slow play it or will call if they are holding the A, or Q, /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. If I hit the four of clubs or a blank falls I might take a stab at the pot if villains are tight and its checked through again. I don't want much heat even with a set.

Hand #2
Check through to pick up flush draw or hit my gut shot. With the preflop raise I don't think my ten is a great overcard even if noone holds an ace. I don't like bluffing into 2 people, but this might be the only chance to get better hands to fold out who don't hold an A. Meh, I think the free card is better here with a raised pot.

Hand #3
Here I make my standard bet and try to take it down. Pot is small and easy to give up on and the board is pretty dry. If anybody has a hand they are likely to let you know by calling or raising. Will fold to a raise. Hopefully also can get the free card on the turn to see the river for cheap.

Hand #4
Bet out close to pot as it would really suck if flush draws here got a free card. If raised I push. Push turn on a non diamond card.

Hand #5
Check, and fold to a bet. Hand holds no real potential and 3 other players are in the pot. Even if our T hits the turn we still have kicker issues.

Hand #6
Check and call only if odds are good. Don't like betting into 3 people with bottom pair and only a gut shot with the ignorant end of a straight.

Hand #7
Check/Fold. Your not likely to have much fold equity here against preflop raiser. You call the raise for set value, you just didn't hit and your out of position.

Hand #8
Check/Fold. The only I'm playing this is for the chance to hit the nut flush or at least a draw. I have done neither and have very little chance to improve this hand later. Heads up I might fight for this but not against 3 with PFR yet to act. This is probably weak tight but I don't know how to play this hand unless I hit the flush or pick up the draw.

Hand #9
Probably bet out here around pot size. Would really suck if pfr checked through here as anyone with a draw just got a free card. Push if reraised hoping to end it or get called by AQ/AK or a sheriff playing TT-KK as flop is not really connected.

Hand #10

If we bet here, and I think it would have to be good sized bet to have any fold equity whatsoever as the pot is already pretty good sized, we are not going to leave behind a whole lot to bet the turn with if a blank hits. Push? I defer to others on this.

Thanks for the quiz Pokey.

Antinome

12-08-2006, 12:50 PM

Hand #1:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...? bets 4. I'm in position, and it doesn't look like anyone has a diamond. Also, this flop has a good chance of not hitting anyone anyway, I may have the best hand. When not to do it- BB and UTG are slowplayers and calling stations.

----------

Hand #2:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...? bets 5.25. In position, I put UTG on QQ... I want him throwing it away in disgust. I bet more because I don't want him making a crying call. When not to do it? UTG is a sticky thinking player who knows how aggro I am.

----------

Hand #3:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.75, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero...? In position, with a pair, all day long. Of course this hand would never happen since I raise preflop. Bet 1.5. I don't buy the 'you only get called by better hands' thing anymore. People call with weird crap.

----------

Hand #4:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.25, four players)
Hero...? Holy mother of god, I bet, 7.25 and pray for a reraise.

----------

Hand #5:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero checks.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.25, four players)
Hero...? Checkarooski. If I get a really weak stab at it from someone I might C/R, but I won't lead out here.

----------

Hand #6:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, one fold, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2, four players)
Hero...? This on is iffy, but I'll usually take a stab at it for 1.50. Against tough competition I'll check-fold.

----------

Hand #7:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $1.5, three folds, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.75, two players)
Hero...? Not my flop. c/f.

----------

Hand #8:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...? If I'm open limping A4s UTG and calling a raise I'm an idiot. Given that, I'm going to c/r CO's cbet if SB and BB fold to it. I want to end this abortion of a hand now. I don't want to bet and have a call, then check, and have to fold.

----------

Hand #9:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero...? What is this, play like an idiot day? I bet 6. I know, a little backwards, I bet with monsters and check-raise garbage. The moment someone catches on I'll flip it around, but that happens like never.

----------

Hand #10:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero raises to $2, two folds, BB calls, UTG raises to $6, Hero calls, one fold.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($14.25, two players)
UTG checks, Hero...? Ugggggh. LRR is 90% AA, KK. Why did I call? I assume stacks were 4*10 or 40 more? Well, I don't see a T, and even if I did now it isn't any good. I'm looking to get to showdown cheap, and the only way that's happening is if I'm already ahead. I should open-fold here to accidentally prevent myself from doing something stupid later in this hand. check.

Tiki

12-08-2006, 01:08 PM

1.If I felt as though I had a credible image I might take a shot here. First hand in though and its an easy check.

2.12 cards could improve me on the turn. Take that turn card with a check.

3.I'd bet 2/3 pot here.

4.Probably a PSB but I'd be tempted to bet 1/4pot hoping for a couple of takers followed by a decent raise from UTG (possibly a bit risky).

5.Check with 3 players yet to act.

6.Check and hope my hand doesn't improve to the extent to where I feel compelled to put any more money into the pot.

7.Check.

8.Check. Probably the only way to get a second best hand to put any more money in. Proceed with caution.

9.PSB. We have a pretty vulnerable hand.

10.Check. Only 7 cards are likely to hurt us if we are not already drawing dead.

Thrahl

12-08-2006, 01:27 PM

Im betting ALL of thse except 5,6,7.

[ QUOTE ]
After reading the others, I kinda suprised at how many are betting #10. I don't see what this accomplishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

For value - we often have the best hand here

For proteciton - If villain has overs why give him a free card to hit his 6 outer?

Dan Bitel

12-08-2006, 01:47 PM

I check all of them, except I guess hand 3

derosnec

12-08-2006, 01:54 PM

Hand 4 is a check. Please don't bet this. I have billion of hands under my belt where I have led with a set into the PFR and callers only to take it down on the flop. Rarely will you build a pot here. Check, UTG bets, trap money, then raise.

Antinome

12-08-2006, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4 is a check. Please don't bet this. I have billion of hands under my belt where I have led with a set into the PFR and callers only to take it down on the flop. Rarely will you build a pot here. Check, UTG bets, trap money, then raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you take Dan's line of checking everything. I prefer to lead early, lead often, lead with draws, lead with middle pair, lead with sets, lead with quads, lead with air, lead with bottom pair, lead with top two, bottom two, gutshots, scary cards, &tc. More often than not, my sets get paid off big. Everthing else can break even and I don't care.

derosnec

12-08-2006, 02:12 PM

when u lead, one of two things will likely happen:

1) everyone folds

2) utg raises you, the others fold

if there was no ace on the flop, i'd be more willing to lead because my lead won't be as scary to the pf callers

(i play on stars, maybe other sites are looser)

bozzer

12-08-2006, 03:04 PM

Hand #1:
Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

This is worth potting, no? A king would have bet with the 3-flush showing, and while this is a nasty board to get involved with, we hope we can get away from it if things turn sour...

----------

Hand #2:
Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Without reads I think we can try a 2/3 bet with our gutshot. We'll have some FE, plus some outs if we're called. UTG has played unusually if she has an A.

----------

Hand #3:
Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Two checks in an unraised pot with position and a pair? I would take a stab, but not always. No harm in seeing what develops on the turn in this pot.

----------

Hand #4:
Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Ah. Well wierdly I've been struggling with extraction with my sets lately. We could bet, because there might be an A out there (if there isn't, show's over), or we could check, and go for a check-raise. A check-call or a check-check is risky on this board, so I lean towards leading out. Since an A will be needed to call us almost whatever we bet, and we don't want that flush draw hanging around, potting it would seem sensible. Is this why I can't extract lately??

----------

Hand #5:
Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checks. Not worth betting into 3 villans.

----------

Hand #6:
Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check. Two cards opponents could have hit. If the turn brings a blank I will generally fire then.

----------

Hand #7:
Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Check. If you bluffed there would be enough uncertainty in the villan's mind that you were really strong with an A after your limp-call that your FE would go right down and they could justify floating or raising with a K or a weak A themselves.

----------

Hand #8:
Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

This is the other reason we called isn't it? It sucks to give away our holding, but we have to bet, maybe 2/3, and find out the others have.

----------

Hand #9:
Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

As for the set, but the situation is less good because we have one of the aces.

----------

Hand #10:
Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Bet 1/2 - 2/3 pot, faking the hook, and hopefully define your hand. If flatcalled try and keep the pot small and your fingers crossed!

ticks

12-08-2006, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check all of them, except I guess hand 3

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you check hand 9?
Planning to check raise?

Ra_

12-08-2006, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Im betting ALL of thse except 5,6,7.

[ QUOTE ]
After reading the others, I kinda suprised at how many are betting #10. I don't see what this accomplishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

For value - we often have the best hand here

For proteciton - If villain has overs why give him a free card to hit his 6 outer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your getting almost zero value betting here. No worse hands call.

You might be protecting a 6 outer to AK, but why protect a hand your going to have to fold even if his possible helping cards don't come and he bets turn. You have position, use it, see what he does on the turn.

Hail Eris

12-08-2006, 03:31 PM

I bet H2 and H3, and check the rest. H4 and H9 might be good for leading if it wasn't for your good relative position.

H3 and H7 I raise preflop.

Antinome

12-08-2006, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
when u lead, one of two things will likely happen:

1) everyone folds

2) utg raises you, the others fold

if there was no ace on the flop, i'd be more willing to lead because my lead won't be as scary to the pf callers

(i play on stars, maybe other sites are looser)

[/ QUOTE ]

If everyone folds, that's fine. I took down another pot and nobody knows what I had.

If I get callers, or raisers, all they know is I repped an A. Or maybe a draw. Or MP. The C/R will often get you 10BB more uncontested, but sometimes you will lose your shirt when they check behind and spike a diamond. Leading out will sometimes win me nothing more, but will often get me reraised by much worse hands for 25BB+, allowing me to push with no real danger of being behind.

The Ace is what makes that possible. I love the Ace. No card in the deck is more likely to have hit UTG and/or Button. I might hesitate to raise on a rainbow garbage flop, but this flop is like printing money. Start getting it in.

Pokey

12-08-2006, 07:46 PM

I don't claim that these are "the answers." Rather, these are how I would respond to these situations, along with why I would do so.

Hand #1:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets.

The flop is monotone and both players (notably the preflop raiser) have passed up the chance to bet. It's ace-free and it has a king. Our folding equity is reasonably high. I bet it. I'm probably betting about $3.50 or $4 to give myself the best possible pot odds on my wager -- that way, I don't even have to fold out my opposition 50% of the time for this to be profitable. If villains don't have a diamond, they'll have to fold, and there's a better-than-50% chance that neither of them has one, especially given the checking.

----------

Hand #2:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif ($6.25, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets.

After UTG wimps out I think that A is a scare card and I take advantage of it. I'm surprised at all the folks who want to check this one to try and improve: our draw is crap and not worth protecting. Four-outers hit less than 10% of the time; that means that my pot equity is measured in pennies if I have to hit to win. If I raise, I get a new chance to win from villains folding. Incidentally, I'm happy to fold if raised: again, I have nothing, and I'm not giving anything up in doing so. The pot is big enough that I try to steal this one. I probably make it $3.50 to $4 for the same reason as in hand #1.

----------

Hand #3:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero calls, two folds, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($1.75, three players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets.

A third opportunity for a bet-fold. Hero has nothing. No, you don't have a hand. You have nothing. Pair of 5s? That's nothing. You have nothing. Don't fool yourself into thinking you have a hand -- YOU HAVE NOTHING. However, it's entirely possible that nobody else has anything, either. Try to pick up this orphaned pot with a $1 bet -- again, it doesn't have to work very often to be profitable, and if it doesn't work you are finished with the hand. You check behind on the turn and fold to any river bet. After all, you have nothing.

----------

Hand #4:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG raises to $2, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8.25, four players)
Hero checks.

In my opinion, this is the easiest hand in the bunch. We're first to act out of four players. The NEXT ACTOR was the preflop raiser. If we bet, it will show far more power than we want to reveal, and we'll wind up having our opponent(s) go into check-call mode with their aces. It's entirely possible that UTG improved, at which point he will fire a strong bet into this pot. Even if he didn't, he may bluff at the ace. If CO or Button have an ace, they could easily call this bet, or even raise it (joy of joys). In any case, check-raising this flop is the best way to trap dead money in the hand before you reveal your strength. If you're lucky, UTG bets $7 and CO/Button raises to $20; then you can push and get called by AK, AQ, two pair, or even garbage, or at worst pick up a $35 pot without a fight. This is the absolute picture-perfect chance to check-raise: take it.

----------

Hand #5:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, Button calls, one fold, Hero checks.

Flop: 9/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($2.25, four players)
Hero bets.

Another classic "orphaned pot." We have a four-way pot where nobody seemed too excited preflop. The flop itself is unlikely to have hit any hand except the BB's, and the BB (who everybody will recognize has random cards) will have much folding equity. Leading here scoops the pot disgustingly often. Bet $1.50 and take it down half the time, showing a profit from the bet.

----------

Hand #6:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, CO calls, one fold, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif ($2, four players)
Hero checks.

This is a sucker hand. Oh, sure, it looks all nice and pretty: we've got a pair and we've got a straight draw, after all. Unfortunately our pair is garbage and our straight draw is to an inside straight. Worse yet, we're first to act out of four players, and the odds that nobody has a K or Q are virtually nil. Also, since we're in the BB we'll get no respect for having broadway cards, so we're not going to fold out any Ks or Qs. In this situation, our correct play is to check with the intention of FOLDING TO ANY BET. We can't stand any heat in this hand, and we're getting out of the kitchen.

----------

Hand #7:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $1.5, three folds, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($3.75, two players)
Hero checks.

There are no logical hands that villain could have that we beat. It's theoretically possible he's got JJ and will fold to a bet, but the odds of it are painfully small. We're not going to get any respect for AK/AQ/KQ after a preflop check-call, and villain could easily have a hand that has us crushed AND KNOWS IT. Our folding equity is small and our only hope of winning the hand is a bluff. We're out of position -- we've got no prayer. Check and fold to any bet.

----------

Hand #8:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Never mind the ace -- we missed. Our kicker is crap, the preflop raiser hasn't acted yet, and if we bet we're only folding worse hands. I might bet the turn if the flop checks through, but other than that I'm done with the hand.

----------

Hand #9:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero calls, one fold, CO raises to $2, one fold, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($8, four players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Same action as hand #8 for totally different reasons: here, our best play is a check-raise. Hopefully, CO gets frisky and bets -- all the checking will encourage this. Also, the ace on the board means he connected if he's got an ace in his hand. Moreover, if villain missed the board he's drawing to two outs, and we're not really worried. Finally, we've once again got potential trapped dead money in the form of SB and BB in this hand, so letting CO bet before we raise is very handy. I'm not as thrilled about this check-raise as I was with hand #4 just because our hand is somewhat more vulnerable and there is a draw on the board, but I'm willing to risk giving a free card if it means that I will frequently trap a good deal of dead money. For the record, my check-raise will be very large.

----------

Hand #10:
Preflop: (6 players) Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
UTG calls, one fold, Hero raises to $2, two folds, BB calls, UTG raises to $6, Hero calls, one fold.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/club.gif ($14.25, two players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

This hand is over, and you lost. A limp-reraise tells me that villain has a monster. For people saying "value bet against AK," let me say this clearly: villain does not have AK. Ever. Put him on a huge pair that beats yours and you won't be wrong often enough for it to make a difference. Given this board, you have as close to zero outs as is mathematically possible while still being non-zero, but if you don't go runner-runner Ts you lose this hand. Oh, and one more thing: your opponent knows this. Your folding equity is zero and your pot equity is zero. You are done with the hand -- don't put in another penny on the flop, turn, or river. Fold when he lets you.

Thrahl

12-08-2006, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im betting ALL of thse except 5,6,7.

[ QUOTE ]
After reading the others, I kinda suprised at how many are betting #10. I don't see what this accomplishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

For value - we often have the best hand here

For proteciton - If villain has overs why give him a free card to hit his 6 outer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your getting almost zero value betting here. No worse hands call.

You might be protecting a 6 outer to AK, but why protect a hand your going to have to fold even if his possible helping cards don't come and he bets turn. You have position, use it, see what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many worse PPs will call, Zeebo theorem.

Crimsonjade

12-08-2006, 08:08 PM

I think I failed. But this is definitely something to think about. Thanks Pokey.

gumpzilla

12-08-2006, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I failed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't treat the "answers" as more authoritative than other posts in the thread. I'm not terribly enamored of the c/r's (if your opponents are bad, they're probably paying you either way; if your opponents are good, c/r'ing the flop seems like the best way to let them off the hook with middling hands) or the thought process in betting the T (assuming that everybody will think "Gee, because it was checked around the BB could have anything" AND that they will fold two overs or 65 in this spot is likely giving your opponents way too much credit, at these levels.)

Crimsonjade

12-08-2006, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I failed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't treat the "answers" as more authoritative than other posts in the thread. I'm not terribly enamored of the c/r's (if your opponents are bad, they're probably paying you either way; if your opponents are good, c/r'ing the flop seems like the best way to let them off the hook with middling hands) or the thought process in betting the T (assuming that everybody will think "Gee, because it was checked around the BB could have anything" AND that they will fold two overs or 65 in this spot is likely giving your opponents way too much credit, at these levels.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the follow up. Pokey's lines were a bit of a shock to me as I play it much more straightforward: pump it or dump it. Still it is nice to think about your options, especially as one moves up.

Big Poppa Smurf

12-08-2006, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Im betting ALL of thse except 5,6,7.

[ QUOTE ]
After reading the others, I kinda suprised at how many are betting #10. I don't see what this accomplishes.

[/ QUOTE ]

For value - we often have the best hand here

For proteciton - If villain has overs why give him a free card to hit his 6 outer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your getting almost zero value betting here. No worse hands call.

You might be protecting a 6 outer to AK, but why protect a hand your going to have to fold even if his possible helping cards don't come and he bets turn. You have position, use it, see what he does on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Many worse PPs will call, Zeebo theorem.

[/ QUOTE ]

thrahl,

he almost never has a worse hand here.

lazeeesunday

12-08-2006, 09:18 PM

Hmmmm, Pokey's "answers" suprised me. Most of my thinking was more along the line of Orange's... Interesting thread!